USA House passes aviation safety bill
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Right then, glad you set me straight. No reason at all why I shouldn't be perfectly happy with a 367 hour total time guy at night, in a monsoon, crappy 3rd world ATC, maybe a slight technical glitch, or and did I mention - we have been flying for 9 1/2 hours.
It depends on the mind set of the guy in the left seat. Personally, I have no problem with a 367 guy in the right seat. Been there done that and have the t-shirt. But then again, I've been a line trainnig captain for more than 25 years.
I remember flying with a newbie losing all hydraulics. yeah he was a bit nervous but realized that the wings and motors were still attached to the airframe. Unlike the simulator we had plenty of time to deal with the problem in a relaxed manner. True I had a seasoned Flight Engineer, but some one had to fly the jet while the check lists werr run. The newbie did an outstanding job. By the way... the lad had about 350 in his log book.
No reason at all why I should prefer to have a guy who was maybe an F18 instructor or else a Captain on a commuter jet assisting me. Rest assured that all is OK. My error.
.In know, most line captains expect their F/Os to be qualified 100% without the requirement for baby sitting. Oh well... that's not reality. Some imparting of appropriate knowlege, alone with give and patience is required of the skipper. Remember, even the F-18 pilot is still on the learning curve when first released to the line.
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Fatigue was not cause the tragedy in Buffalo... it was pure incompetance, and lack of regard for SOPs, and situational awareness as it related to current weather conditions, and the effects of adverse weather on their aircraft. The bottom line is that the two of them were out to lunch. - captjns
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Wirgin (love that ,BTW!!)
The regulators may wake up sooner or later, but if they impose any kind of restrictions on commuting there will be an outcry from the pilot groups themselves. Even Sully lives far from where he works. So, it is a two edged sword. Meanwhile, rest and duty regulations are already there but need to be enforced ---by the airlines themselves. It's called self regulation.
Alt3.
The regulators may wake up sooner or later, but if they impose any kind of restrictions on commuting there will be an outcry from the pilot groups themselves. Even Sully lives far from where he works. So, it is a two edged sword. Meanwhile, rest and duty regulations are already there but need to be enforced ---by the airlines themselves. It's called self regulation.
Alt3.
So, it is a two edged sword. Meanwhile, rest and duty regulations are already there but need to be enforced ---by the airlines themselves. It's called self regulation.
In the long haul trucking industry isn't the enforcement and compliance between the driver and the feds?
Should it not be so for the flight crews? Perhaps that would take the airline specific excuses out of the issue.
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Lomapaseo,
True,but we need to be careful in emulating the trucking industry. I have it on very good authority that most truckers maintain two log books. One that follows the letter of the law for duty time for the feds and another that is presented to the company for pay and allowances. And, apparently, most trucking companies are happy to look the other way as long as the freight gets to it's destination. I would hate to see the so-far-compliant aviation industry degenerate to those levels.
I still maintain that commuting long distances for flight duty is a choice made by the pilots and the airlines must enforce the regulations they themselves put in. An example would be not allowing the pilots to rest in the crew lounge. The regulation exists but is probably more honored in the breach than in the observance,as was evident from the Colgan accident.
Alt3.
True,but we need to be careful in emulating the trucking industry. I have it on very good authority that most truckers maintain two log books. One that follows the letter of the law for duty time for the feds and another that is presented to the company for pay and allowances. And, apparently, most trucking companies are happy to look the other way as long as the freight gets to it's destination. I would hate to see the so-far-compliant aviation industry degenerate to those levels.
I still maintain that commuting long distances for flight duty is a choice made by the pilots and the airlines must enforce the regulations they themselves put in. An example would be not allowing the pilots to rest in the crew lounge. The regulation exists but is probably more honored in the breach than in the observance,as was evident from the Colgan accident.
Alt3.
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posted by Wirgin Blew
Very familiar and responsibilities involved to mitigate fatigue. The two crewmembers were still in EWR while the airplane was icing up.
FATIGUE is in NO WAY a VALID excuse for violating SOPs or FARs or AOM prodecures. With that being said please spare us with the usual cliches.
Perhaps if you knew a bit more about fatigue you would see all of the above as symptoms of fatigue.
FATIGUE is in NO WAY a VALID excuse for violating SOPs or FARs or AOM prodecures. With that being said please spare us with the usual cliches.
we need to be careful in emulating the trucking industry. I have it on very good authority that most truckers maintain two log books. One that follows the letter of the law for duty time for the feds and another that is presented to the company for pay and allowances. And, apparently, most trucking companies are happy to look the other way as long as the freight gets to it's destination. I would hate to see the so-far-compliant aviation industry degenerate to those levels.
I still maintain that commuting long distances for flight duty is a choice made by the pilots and the airlines must enforce the regulations they themselves put in. An example would be not allowing the pilots to rest in the crew lounge. The regulation exists but is probably more honored in the breach than in the observance,as was evident from the Colgan accident.
Alt3.
I still maintain that commuting long distances for flight duty is a choice made by the pilots and the airlines must enforce the regulations they themselves put in. An example would be not allowing the pilots to rest in the crew lounge. The regulation exists but is probably more honored in the breach than in the observance,as was evident from the Colgan accident.
Alt3.
If so, then in both cases the policing of such rules did not work under the supervison of the employer.
But just how diligent can one expect the employer to be short of punch-in punch-out time cards and fines? From a safety standpoint I don't trust the word diligence unless there is an auditable process to back it up.
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FATIGUE is in NO WAY a VALID excuse for violating SOPs or FARs or AOM prodecures. With that being said please spare us with the usual cliches.
You are not allowed to pilot a plane while intoxicated so why is it ok to pilot one when fatigued? Because you cannot exactly measure fatigue as it is different in everybody. captjns is once again quite happy to hang the individuals concerned rather than look a little deeper and see how the individuals got to be in that place. They had obviously flown successfully many times before so they had the skills to get the job done. What was different on that night? How did the two of them commuting from opposite sides of the country end up flying together?
This was an accident waiting to happen, it was only a matter of time before the two long distance commuters ended up being paired together. Airlines have a duty of care to staff, passengers and the general public to ensure this sort of accident is not allowed to happen. Commuting crew are setting themselves up to fail as they are trying to sleep on aircraft, crew rooms or the couch at a mates house. Hardly the ideal environment that they need to be properly rested before reporting for duty. If the airlines wont regulate these workers, and the company wont, then we will see an increase in the accident rate. Currently global aviation is stalling but as soon as the economies pick up we can expect seat numbers to double again in the next 10 years. In this time it is crucial to get fatigue systems in place to protect all concerned or we will see accident rates climb back to heights not seen since the 1970's.
Prof James Reason's swiss cheese model proves itself again.
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Safety board issues wake-up call on sleep disorder
WASHINGTON (AP) — Safety investigators have sent government agencies a wake-up call about sleep apnea, a disorder that's showing up in a wide range of transportation accidents.
The National Transportation Safety Board said Tuesday that commercial truck and bus drivers and merchant ship pilots should be screened for sleep apnea. The board made similar recommendations for airline pilots and train operators earlier this year.
In letters to the Coast Guard and the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, the board recommended requiring medical examiners to question drivers and ship pilots about the disorder — which involves disruptions in breathing during sleep — and to develop programs to identify the problem.
Sleep apnea denies people the rest they need, and it has been found to be a factor in incidents involving every transportation mode, NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman said in the letters.
The board has sent similar recommendations to the Federal Aviation Administration and to local transit agencies across the country.
Among the incidents cited in the letters:
_In January 2008, a motorcoach carrying passengers returning from a weekend ski trip went too fast around a curve on a rural Utah highway. The bus went careening down a mountainside, killing nine people and injuring 43 others. The driver suffered from sleep apnea and had trouble using a device to regulate his breathing while sleeping in the days before the accident.
_The same month, two go! airlines pilots conked out for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii, as their plane continued to cruise past its destination and out to sea. Air traffic controllers were finally able to raise the pilots, who turned the plane around with its 40 passengers and landed it safely. The captain was later diagnosed with sleep apnea.
_A trolley train crashed into another train in May 2008 in Newton, Mass. Investigators said the driver probably fell asleep because she suffered from sleep apnea, but it could not be proved because she died.
_In November 2001, a train engineer drove through a stop warning in Clarkston, Mich., striking another train and killing two crew members. He was found to be a very high risk for sleep apnea, but he had not been diagnosed or treated.
_In June 1995, a cruise ship maneuvering through Alaska's Inside Passage was grounded on a submerged but charted and marked rock by a pilot later diagnosed with sleep apnea. The ship was carrying about 2,200 people.
A 2002 study that found 7 percent of adults have at least a moderate form of the disorder, but people often don't know they have it.
The motor carrier administration is already considering a rule to tighten its standards for medical certification of commercial drivers, Transportation Department spokeswoman Sasha Johnson said.
The FAA is also in the process of drafting new rules to broadly address pilot fatigue and will consider the board's recommendations, spokeswoman Laura Brown said.
The Coast Guard is examining the recommendations and will pursue possible safety strategies, spokeswoman Lisa Novak said.
The letters noted the Federal Railroad Administration is also working on drafting new regulations to address the problem.
Mark Rosenker, a former NTSB acting chairman, said the issue has long been a concern of the board, but the go! airlines incident jarred board members.
"Obviously when two pilots fall asleep in the cockpit and they miss their stop, that triggers a lot of interest at NTSB," Rosenker said.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Safety investigators have sent government agencies a wake-up call about sleep apnea, a disorder that's showing up in a wide range of transportation accidents.
The National Transportation Safety Board said Tuesday that commercial truck and bus drivers and merchant ship pilots should be screened for sleep apnea. The board made similar recommendations for airline pilots and train operators earlier this year.
In letters to the Coast Guard and the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, the board recommended requiring medical examiners to question drivers and ship pilots about the disorder — which involves disruptions in breathing during sleep — and to develop programs to identify the problem.
Sleep apnea denies people the rest they need, and it has been found to be a factor in incidents involving every transportation mode, NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman said in the letters.
The board has sent similar recommendations to the Federal Aviation Administration and to local transit agencies across the country.
Among the incidents cited in the letters:
_In January 2008, a motorcoach carrying passengers returning from a weekend ski trip went too fast around a curve on a rural Utah highway. The bus went careening down a mountainside, killing nine people and injuring 43 others. The driver suffered from sleep apnea and had trouble using a device to regulate his breathing while sleeping in the days before the accident.
_The same month, two go! airlines pilots conked out for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii, as their plane continued to cruise past its destination and out to sea. Air traffic controllers were finally able to raise the pilots, who turned the plane around with its 40 passengers and landed it safely. The captain was later diagnosed with sleep apnea.
_A trolley train crashed into another train in May 2008 in Newton, Mass. Investigators said the driver probably fell asleep because she suffered from sleep apnea, but it could not be proved because she died.
_In November 2001, a train engineer drove through a stop warning in Clarkston, Mich., striking another train and killing two crew members. He was found to be a very high risk for sleep apnea, but he had not been diagnosed or treated.
_In June 1995, a cruise ship maneuvering through Alaska's Inside Passage was grounded on a submerged but charted and marked rock by a pilot later diagnosed with sleep apnea. The ship was carrying about 2,200 people.
A 2002 study that found 7 percent of adults have at least a moderate form of the disorder, but people often don't know they have it.
The motor carrier administration is already considering a rule to tighten its standards for medical certification of commercial drivers, Transportation Department spokeswoman Sasha Johnson said.
The FAA is also in the process of drafting new rules to broadly address pilot fatigue and will consider the board's recommendations, spokeswoman Laura Brown said.
The Coast Guard is examining the recommendations and will pursue possible safety strategies, spokeswoman Lisa Novak said.
The letters noted the Federal Railroad Administration is also working on drafting new regulations to address the problem.
Mark Rosenker, a former NTSB acting chairman, said the issue has long been a concern of the board, but the go! airlines incident jarred board members.
"Obviously when two pilots fall asleep in the cockpit and they miss their stop, that triggers a lot of interest at NTSB," Rosenker said.
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Title: Commercial Aviation Accidents, Pilot Experience, and Pilot Compensation
Date: October 19, 2009
Type: Announcement
Project ID: 09A3007A000
Summary: Large, commercial air carriers have maintained an unprecedented safety record over the last several years, but regional carriers are still a safety concern as they have been involved in the last six fatal commercial accidents. The National Transportation Safety Board cited pilot performance as a potential contributory factor in four of these incidents.
The Department of Transportation Office of Inspector General will begin a review to identify and assess trends in commercial aviation accidents including any correlations between pilot experience and compensation.
Full document:
http://www.oig.dot.gov/StreamFile?fi...adata)_(2).pdf
Date: October 19, 2009
Type: Announcement
Project ID: 09A3007A000
Summary: Large, commercial air carriers have maintained an unprecedented safety record over the last several years, but regional carriers are still a safety concern as they have been involved in the last six fatal commercial accidents. The National Transportation Safety Board cited pilot performance as a potential contributory factor in four of these incidents.
The Department of Transportation Office of Inspector General will begin a review to identify and assess trends in commercial aviation accidents including any correlations between pilot experience and compensation.
Full document:
http://www.oig.dot.gov/StreamFile?fi...adata)_(2).pdf
A "compromise figure" of 800 hours for new copilots seems to be on the cards now:
Senate OKs measure to boost flight hours for new co-pilots : City & Region : The Buffalo News
The measure would require new co-pilots to have 800 hours of flight experience under specific, rigorous conditions. That's up from the current 250 hours of general experience.
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These rules are made by grey man in grey suits behind desks in grey buildings without any experience with the actual job at all.
No hard figure will guarantee error free operations as it depends largely on the individual itself. I've had people next to me with multiple thousands of experience who didn't have a clue at all whilst the keen, eager to learn, 250 hour guy did an excellent job, of course also the opposite which is more common but it still depends on the individual.
This is were the $$$ aspect shows up as it is cheaper for the recuitment department to let the pilot tick off boxes with certain figures than to evaluate this person in the simulator and have the quality of it's experience explained and checked.
Just a compromise, welcome in 2010
marsipulami.
No hard figure will guarantee error free operations as it depends largely on the individual itself. I've had people next to me with multiple thousands of experience who didn't have a clue at all whilst the keen, eager to learn, 250 hour guy did an excellent job, of course also the opposite which is more common but it still depends on the individual.
This is were the $$$ aspect shows up as it is cheaper for the recuitment department to let the pilot tick off boxes with certain figures than to evaluate this person in the simulator and have the quality of it's experience explained and checked.
Just a compromise, welcome in 2010
marsipulami.
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Perhaps it should not be just about the co-pilot. What about a minimun 10000 total hours in the cockpit rule. ie if the copilot only has 500 hours the captain must have 9500. This would improve safety also increase the value of experienced Captains.
Certainly the european model needs changing where 3500 hr pilots are line trainers on 737's
Certainly the european model needs changing where 3500 hr pilots are line trainers on 737's
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Horse Sh*t
Virgin Blue,
You are WAY off in your assessment of this incident. What are you a chief pilot or something ??? Distance from ones base has absolutely ZERO to do with quality of rest. Do you understand that ? - Nada, zilch, null, the empty set........ I know guys that drive to work thru traffic trying to get to Newark that are FAR more tired than I who have just come up from Florida napping or reading the paper the whole way. What about a crew member that lives five miles from the airport but has a newborn at home ?????? Proximity is NO guarantee of quality rest so get the f**k off your ridiculous high horse and pull your head out of your third point of contact.
You are WAY off in your assessment of this incident. What are you a chief pilot or something ??? Distance from ones base has absolutely ZERO to do with quality of rest. Do you understand that ? - Nada, zilch, null, the empty set........ I know guys that drive to work thru traffic trying to get to Newark that are FAR more tired than I who have just come up from Florida napping or reading the paper the whole way. What about a crew member that lives five miles from the airport but has a newborn at home ?????? Proximity is NO guarantee of quality rest so get the f**k off your ridiculous high horse and pull your head out of your third point of contact.
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Experience Gap
There is always flight instruction. Not only did I learn a lot about flying, I learned about dealing with different people and personality types, and gained over 2700 hours instructing in everything from C152s to C421s in the process.
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....Does anyone out there have any ideas on how we are going to keep the pilot pool going if these guys have to get 1500 hours to get a low paying regional airlines job?
Pipeline patrol. Ferry airplanes. Instruct. Tow. Haul jumpers. Part 135. Pump gas at the local airport and make yourself available for any odd flying jobs that come up. It is nothing new. And if you really want to fly it is not painful.
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Back in the old days....
Back in the old days, well before the implementation of deregulation, a typical major airline applicant had maybe three thousand to six thousand hours of flight experience. Further, most successful applicants had university degrees, and most were military trained.
Once hired by a major carrier, the new pilot flew as a flight engineer for a number of years before moving into the right seat. Again, a number of years would pass by before then moving into the left seat. Typically, ten to twelve years of flying experience with that major carrier before being considered for the captain position. (Typically, fifteen to twenty years from the time the person was introduced to "now, this is an airplane" to becoming a captain at a major carrier in the U.S.)
As the craziness of deregulation continues to develop, we now see idiots graduating from the Clyde T. Fumbuck School of Aviation....really no education at all....no university background....one year in the right seat of a turd-o-matic....then, an aircraft commander flying the general public around...for piss for salary....(as the traveling public pays piss for tickets).
How hard is this to understand why we're having problems?
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Once hired by a major carrier, the new pilot flew as a flight engineer for a number of years before moving into the right seat. Again, a number of years would pass by before then moving into the left seat. Typically, ten to twelve years of flying experience with that major carrier before being considered for the captain position. (Typically, fifteen to twenty years from the time the person was introduced to "now, this is an airplane" to becoming a captain at a major carrier in the U.S.)
As the craziness of deregulation continues to develop, we now see idiots graduating from the Clyde T. Fumbuck School of Aviation....really no education at all....no university background....one year in the right seat of a turd-o-matic....then, an aircraft commander flying the general public around...for piss for salary....(as the traveling public pays piss for tickets).
How hard is this to understand why we're having problems?
Fly safe,
PantLoad
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There is no doubt there are two camps on this issue...
Camp 1: Please god, let me have an airline job, let me pad my hours, I'll get ab intio training, blow the chief pilot, pay for training, get a buddy to recommend me... I want a system that rewards guys that buy off on CRM, butt kissing, befriending peeps that will walk my app into HR, I want to have a system in place that will get me around all those pesky flight hours and experience that I should really have to fly an airliner. I deserve to have 200 hours of flight time and be a capt on an Airbus.
Camp 2: I have 5-10k hours...a degree, real flight experience...the most experienced pilots get the most pay, and the best equipment.
Camp 1: Please god, let me have an airline job, let me pad my hours, I'll get ab intio training, blow the chief pilot, pay for training, get a buddy to recommend me... I want a system that rewards guys that buy off on CRM, butt kissing, befriending peeps that will walk my app into HR, I want to have a system in place that will get me around all those pesky flight hours and experience that I should really have to fly an airliner. I deserve to have 200 hours of flight time and be a capt on an Airbus.
Camp 2: I have 5-10k hours...a degree, real flight experience...the most experienced pilots get the most pay, and the best equipment.