Are we facing a safety issue?
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Are we facing a safety issue?
Michael Moore's pointing out something no one in the media seems to want to discuss: How little money the people who are flying commercial planes are getting paid. As he says, these are not the people you want working a second job:
We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder.
"I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating.
"The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl.
"Did I do something wrong?"
"No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.")
The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else.
"Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket."
He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza.
I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker.
"I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy.
I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie.
"I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said.
"No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie."
And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer.
Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks.
Alright, that is not really new, but my question is, what can we do? Is the situation going to get worse in the future? And the most important: Is it going to influence safety?
Is that a supply and demand (too many pilots trained) issue?
Is that because of the recession only?
How about the fuel price in the next few years?
Are we about to face a change, or the end of this career?
We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder.
"I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating.
"The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl.
"Did I do something wrong?"
"No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.")
The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else.
"Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket."
He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza.
I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker.
"I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy.
I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie.
"I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said.
"No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie."
And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer.
Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks.
Alright, that is not really new, but my question is, what can we do? Is the situation going to get worse in the future? And the most important: Is it going to influence safety?
Is that a supply and demand (too many pilots trained) issue?
Is that because of the recession only?
How about the fuel price in the next few years?
Are we about to face a change, or the end of this career?
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As long as lowest priced tickets are available they will live happy with the mis-understanding that pilots earn hundreds of thousands a year, live in big executive homes, send thier progeny to private schools and have a yacht on the med.
Unfortunately the media and the travelling public don't really five a t0ss as long as ticket prices stay bargain low.
Unfortunately the media and the travelling public don't really five a t0ss as long as ticket prices stay bargain low.
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As a non pilot, I have difficulty understanding how a UK airline Captain can be earning £100,000+ per year & junior first officers maybe a third of that, yet the OP states that some American pilots earn $17,000 per year.
Is the rate of pay in the UK & America so different?
Is the rate of pay in the UK & America so different?
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Maybe I should give the source of the article:
The title is: Do you want airlines pilot working two jobs?
I don't know to what extend Michael Moore tell the truth and don' t exagerate, but when I read this article, first I feel it is the reality of many pilots, and second I start wondering about the future, about safety.
So here you are: an other questions I am asking you, does this unconfortable pilot situation concerns only north american and low cost companies, or is that a general and worldwide trend and phenomenon?
The title is: Do you want airlines pilot working two jobs?
I don't know to what extend Michael Moore tell the truth and don' t exagerate, but when I read this article, first I feel it is the reality of many pilots, and second I start wondering about the future, about safety.
So here you are: an other questions I am asking you, does this unconfortable pilot situation concerns only north american and low cost companies, or is that a general and worldwide trend and phenomenon?
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Bruce Wayne:
The low cost tickets... But are we carrying more passenger with less pilots than before yes or not? Low cost tickets should mean low pilot salaries?
Flying idle:
Here is a real issue: A new F/O should have the possibility to work on his knowledge, procedures, aircraft systems instead of working in an other unrelated field. Here is one aspect of the safety issue right?
Unfortunately the media and the travelling public don't really five a t0ss as long as ticket prices stay bargain low.
Flying idle:
As a non pilot, I have difficulty understanding how a UK airline Captain can be earning £100,000+ per year & junior first officers maybe a third of that, yet the OP states that some American pilots earn $17,000 per year.
Michael Moore: Do You Want Airline Pilots to Be Working Two Jobs? | Crooks and Liars
I assume the last three words are the job titles of the author of the article - honesty for a change...........
I assume the last three words are the job titles of the author of the article - honesty for a change...........
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Of course these salaries seem crazy, but remember nobody is forcing these guys to work for peanuts. They're all well educated people, they could get other jobs, but they choose to fly because they love it. And since deregulation the airlines have been able to exploit that.
We should also remember that there are far more jobs for pilots now than there were before deregulation - force salaries - and fares - up and there'll be fewer jobs.
It's a trade-off - few people would deny that it's gone too far in one direction, but there will be consequences that not everyone will like of pushing back in the other direction. And then of course there's the question of exactly how one might push back in the other direction. Government regulation to increase air fares wouldn't be an easy political sell.
We should also remember that there are far more jobs for pilots now than there were before deregulation - force salaries - and fares - up and there'll be fewer jobs.
It's a trade-off - few people would deny that it's gone too far in one direction, but there will be consequences that not everyone will like of pushing back in the other direction. And then of course there's the question of exactly how one might push back in the other direction. Government regulation to increase air fares wouldn't be an easy political sell.
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The fact is that many of the new joiners to the industry in the UK, at some of the leading players are not even getting paid. Some are even paying circa 30,000 pounds upfront for a few hundred hours on a shiny jet (not including the cost of getting their licence). Others are 90,000 in debt, get 1000 pounds a month "allowance" - which is actually their own money that they're getting back (otherwise they'd be paying tax and national insurance on it), to be unceremoniously shown the door after six months to be replaced by the next starry eyed wannabe. But we all know this, and nobody seems to give much of a sh*t. Safety best practice, hmmm????
Unfortunately, this is now becoming the norm worldwide. When it ends in tears with a smoking hole it'll already be too late. First officers have become a revenue stream when in fact they should be there as capable 2 second in commands.
Unfortunately, this is now becoming the norm worldwide. When it ends in tears with a smoking hole it'll already be too late. First officers have become a revenue stream when in fact they should be there as capable 2 second in commands.
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Fitter 2:
Yes, that is why I have added the source.
Still, who would have thought 10 years ago that Michael Moore would be interested by the supposed "demise" of the airline pilots? Itself it is something.
Speaking about Irak, Weapon industry, capitalism, I think we all can understand (agree or disagree), knowing who the guy is. But airline pilots?
Beanbag:
What about the airlines, the training industry?
Let' s say the accident rate rises a bit, and that we even evaluate that in some cases, that is because fatigue, low salaries... Who is responsable?
Training industry? The crew? The airline?
So first we have to evaluate wether there is a link or not between low wages and safety. If this is the case, who has to do something?
I assume the last three words are the job titles of the author of the article - honesty for a change...........
Still, who would have thought 10 years ago that Michael Moore would be interested by the supposed "demise" of the airline pilots? Itself it is something.
Speaking about Irak, Weapon industry, capitalism, I think we all can understand (agree or disagree), knowing who the guy is. But airline pilots?
Beanbag:
Of course these salaries seem crazy, but remember nobody is forcing these guys to work for peanuts. They're all well educated people, they could get other jobs, but they choose to fly because they love it. And since deregulation the airlines have been able to exploit that.
Let' s say the accident rate rises a bit, and that we even evaluate that in some cases, that is because fatigue, low salaries... Who is responsable?
Training industry? The crew? The airline?
So first we have to evaluate wether there is a link or not between low wages and safety. If this is the case, who has to do something?
Last edited by KAG; 14th Oct 2009 at 19:36.
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Curiously, and by almost complete coincidence, I came across this thread just after posting (several times) on this forum on a related point (my handle over there is "Observer"). I think this is a real worry and I wish I could feel it is more widely recognised in the air travel industry. Anyway, I hope you guys (commercial pilots) appreciate that some of the SLF you carry have some understanding of your concerns.
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Some of the most beautiful antebellum mansions in the port city near me were built a hundred years ago by ship captains. They were the very cream of society in the 1800's.
Now, my uncle is a ship captain in the Gulf of Mexico. At the age of 55 he makes about $70,000 U.S. a year - which happens to be the median income of the U.S.
It's the Law of Entropy, applied to career earnings. Nothing we can do, I guess... go to law school and learn to sue people if you want to make a killing.....
Now, my uncle is a ship captain in the Gulf of Mexico. At the age of 55 he makes about $70,000 U.S. a year - which happens to be the median income of the U.S.
It's the Law of Entropy, applied to career earnings. Nothing we can do, I guess... go to law school and learn to sue people if you want to make a killing.....
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Hi!
There is proposed legistlation in the (US) Congress, that will require ALL Part 121 (Domestic, Regional and Supplemental airlines that fly large aircraft, ie: Delta, Mesa, FedEx, USA Jet) carriers to employ ONLY pilots that have an ATP-MEL (same as the ICAO ATPL).
So, all new hires would need an ATP, which has, as part of its' requirements, at least 1500 hours TT. Under 1500 hours? No ATP. No -121 airline job.
It seems that pay would go up for new joiners.
cliff
NBO
PS-I applied, in 2000, to a number of US -121 airlines, with my ATP-MEL, and was told by most that I was unqualified. At the same time, they were hiring guys with 500 hours TT. Too bad for me!
There is proposed legistlation in the (US) Congress, that will require ALL Part 121 (Domestic, Regional and Supplemental airlines that fly large aircraft, ie: Delta, Mesa, FedEx, USA Jet) carriers to employ ONLY pilots that have an ATP-MEL (same as the ICAO ATPL).
So, all new hires would need an ATP, which has, as part of its' requirements, at least 1500 hours TT. Under 1500 hours? No ATP. No -121 airline job.
It seems that pay would go up for new joiners.
cliff
NBO
PS-I applied, in 2000, to a number of US -121 airlines, with my ATP-MEL, and was told by most that I was unqualified. At the same time, they were hiring guys with 500 hours TT. Too bad for me!
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GXER.....very interesting link.
The common thread among posters was their appreciation of getting value for money, particularly the individual who is proud to book tickets months in advance for 1 Euro a time.
I would be loathe to eat a fast food hamburger offered for 1 Euro............(how could I be sure of the origin of the meat or the age and contents of the frying fat for example, let alone the hygenic habits of the cook !).
So where low cost means no newspapers, drinks, bags and boarding cards and this is visible to the punters then they can make a straightforward and informed evaluation.between service providers.
But if all the cost components taken in to consideration in running a safe airline are reviewed, then surely lower cost must be eating in to the efficacy of these operations and therefore the punter who is proud to pay 1 Euro or 26 Euros is surely gambling based upon an area of operations about which they can have little or no knowledge and therefore can have no informed opinion on what "value" they are receiving.
The common thread among posters was their appreciation of getting value for money, particularly the individual who is proud to book tickets months in advance for 1 Euro a time.
I would be loathe to eat a fast food hamburger offered for 1 Euro............(how could I be sure of the origin of the meat or the age and contents of the frying fat for example, let alone the hygenic habits of the cook !).
So where low cost means no newspapers, drinks, bags and boarding cards and this is visible to the punters then they can make a straightforward and informed evaluation.between service providers.
But if all the cost components taken in to consideration in running a safe airline are reviewed, then surely lower cost must be eating in to the efficacy of these operations and therefore the punter who is proud to pay 1 Euro or 26 Euros is surely gambling based upon an area of operations about which they can have little or no knowledge and therefore can have no informed opinion on what "value" they are receiving.
Last edited by rmac; 14th Oct 2009 at 16:42.
As a non pilot, I have difficulty understanding how a UK airline Captain can be earning £100,000+ per year & junior first officers maybe a third of that, yet the OP states that some American pilots earn $17,000 per year.
Is the rate of pay in the UK & America so different?
Is the rate of pay in the UK & America so different?
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I would be loathe to eat a fast food hamburger offered for 1 Euro
WP
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Well WP, in my opinion a reasonable comparison because those costs are hidden from me and I cannot have an informed opinion.
But just to choose one area related to this thread, does BA charge junior pilots for their type ratings and flying experience and then show them the door after 6 months ? does Ryanair or any of the other locos ? I am happy to be informed by a source who is close to the action.......
Is there evidence to suggest that a younger fleet needs less maintenance in the short term and that clever bulk purchasing can create a short term model which may not be sustainable in the long term ?......
Whats your definition of "common knowledge" as opined in your post, is that based on informed opinion ?
In hindsight however, I can see that spiralling house values, overinflated stocks and consumerism based on the never never had to come to a crashing stop, even though, once again, I personally had no informed opinion on the weak debt structures of the financial sector.
I just remember the old saying "no such thing as a free lunch".
However, if anyone can explain to me in an informed way that it is possible to deliver a very cheap fare structure without compressing crew salaries, as I have written I am willing to be open minded about how the "magic formula" works.
But just to choose one area related to this thread, does BA charge junior pilots for their type ratings and flying experience and then show them the door after 6 months ? does Ryanair or any of the other locos ? I am happy to be informed by a source who is close to the action.......
Is there evidence to suggest that a younger fleet needs less maintenance in the short term and that clever bulk purchasing can create a short term model which may not be sustainable in the long term ?......
Whats your definition of "common knowledge" as opined in your post, is that based on informed opinion ?
In hindsight however, I can see that spiralling house values, overinflated stocks and consumerism based on the never never had to come to a crashing stop, even though, once again, I personally had no informed opinion on the weak debt structures of the financial sector.
I just remember the old saying "no such thing as a free lunch".
However, if anyone can explain to me in an informed way that it is possible to deliver a very cheap fare structure without compressing crew salaries, as I have written I am willing to be open minded about how the "magic formula" works.
Last edited by rmac; 14th Oct 2009 at 17:46.
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Ryanair does post fares for one penny, but after all the additions its not far from the other airlines, its just their gimmick. I have few safety concerns about Ryanair because if I did I wouldnt fly with them. The crew on every flight Ive flown with Ryanair have been polite and reasonable, its the set-up that makes passengers feel like cattle, which is bearable for a short while but not my preference. As an airline its ways arent the worst lo-co UK outfit, BMI Baby takes that position, and for my money, the best - Easyjet.
BA is not likely to get a fare from me for two reasons- they provide the same level of service as Ryanair for a lot more money and secondly, Heathrow. I loathe travelling from there and will avoid it at all costs.
US crew are indeed getting a bad deal but a low cost operation need not be either unsafe nor pay stupidly low salaries. Michael Moore has a knack for pressing the right buttons when needed. I'm glad hes doing what hes doing despite his political associations. If anything we need more Moores.
BA is not likely to get a fare from me for two reasons- they provide the same level of service as Ryanair for a lot more money and secondly, Heathrow. I loathe travelling from there and will avoid it at all costs.
US crew are indeed getting a bad deal but a low cost operation need not be either unsafe nor pay stupidly low salaries. Michael Moore has a knack for pressing the right buttons when needed. I'm glad hes doing what hes doing despite his political associations. If anything we need more Moores.
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How were vested pensions lost?
I thought the U.S. government's PBGC (Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp) insured employees vested defined benefit pensions in cases where the employer became insolvent, declaried bankruptcy and elected to reject pension claims.
In cases where the pilots "lost" pensions, did this involve "voluntarily" exchanging vested pension rights for future employment contract rights when a carrier restructured in or out of bankruptcy?
Thx.
In cases where the pilots "lost" pensions, did this involve "voluntarily" exchanging vested pension rights for future employment contract rights when a carrier restructured in or out of bankruptcy?
Thx.
I just can't seem to develop a link in my head between pilot poor pay and safety performance.
I guess if Michael Moore says so there must be something rotten.
But aren't all pilots motivated to save themselves as well as their passenger's or is there a suicidal urge somewhere to end it all?
Based on what I have read I thought that safety was supposed to be tied to the money grubbing big businesses sending out our airplane tied together with speed tape. But if Michel is on to something could we as passengers just add in a few bucks per ticket each and guarantee that our crew is well fed and happy enough to fly the damn plane.
Perhaps there should be a tip jar at the exit doors to ensure our money is well spent and that we survived long enough to reward the crew.
I'll get my coat I was just leaving
I guess if Michael Moore says so there must be something rotten.
But aren't all pilots motivated to save themselves as well as their passenger's or is there a suicidal urge somewhere to end it all?
Based on what I have read I thought that safety was supposed to be tied to the money grubbing big businesses sending out our airplane tied together with speed tape. But if Michel is on to something could we as passengers just add in a few bucks per ticket each and guarantee that our crew is well fed and happy enough to fly the damn plane.
Perhaps there should be a tip jar at the exit doors to ensure our money is well spent and that we survived long enough to reward the crew.
I'll get my coat I was just leaving