Lufthansa MD-11 Mexico City
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Unhooked: 20 years ago there where no magenta lines to follow! Or were IRSīs and infact FMC around. A/C were certainly not as sophisticated. So, flying was indeed more challenging and that your navigation and flying skills were certainly more demanding! Having said that, thank god we now have, all the goodies that come with modern day aviation. And thanks to that, comercial aviation it s a lot safer. The argument is not, what pilot is suited for the modern day comercial flying but, what is the correct method of teaching and instructing them. Experience has been different for every generation, of pilots!
Anyway, be you an old timer or a the īnew generation pilot the MD11 is still a handfull!
Anyway, be you an old timer or a the īnew generation pilot the MD11 is still a handfull!
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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Was there the next day and the agent pointed the a/c out to us, and you could see it didn't look right sitting there.
Turning this thread away from Airbus v 'the rest' philosophy and back to the incident, Mexico City poses some significant hazards that conspire to prevent a stabilised approach. Large terrain (Popocatopetl is nearby), the main approach is reached by a 90 degree close in base leg, and the extreme altitude causes very high TASs on finals. It is quite frightening observing your speed as you approach the flare. The runways are long, but you use them because of the altitude and speed, so if you float, there can be a desperation to 'put it down'. I found it a very difficult airport to operate in and out of, at the limits of a 747 performance. Places like this will inevitably have a greater risk, and spring nasty surprises on unprepared crews. I can recall happily descending on a left base procedure with mid flap when I casually glanced out at the airport and gulped- it was far closer than I anticipated and we were going far faster than we should have been! Also, flying on QNH, the altimeter is giving you enormous altitude readings which leads to complacency.
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Falcon10, I could be mistaken but I thought that LH was looking for contract pilots to fly their fleet a year back or so (even these poor souls had to pass the dreaded DLR test). There were a few time when I heard a LH Cargo call sign with a definitive non-German accent.
I guess LH must have subcontracted entire routes to World... So, does World in this case use the LH call sign?
I guess LH must have subcontracted entire routes to World... So, does World in this case use the LH call sign?
Trash du Blanc
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It is quite frightening observing your speed as you approach the flare.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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HAM incident
No pilot speaking, just SLF originally from HAM. Last thing I heard about that was that there was some computer issue involved (ground mode or however it was called activated, not allowing for proper input as needed i recall)...
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grimmrad, I don't know the HAM accident in complete detail, but a pilot should know his or her airplane. Blaming it just on computers is far too easy sometimes...
Last edited by Squawk7777; 12th Oct 2009 at 08:33. Reason: spelling (again!!)
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Hey, been on many Md-11 approaches into Quito, World drivers I flew with never missed a smooth transition from G/S to visual for a decent approach, had one ****ty landing with an ill prepared Gemini crew, empty aircraft and they got behind the aircraft for a carrier landing.
As for mexico city, only one time into there but ATC was incompetent, vectored us in a DC-10-30 for a 90 deg ILS intercept, did not clear for ILS untill we blew past the RWY HDG, much into the other paralell ILS. Not impressed.
As for mexico city, only one time into there but ATC was incompetent, vectored us in a DC-10-30 for a 90 deg ILS intercept, did not clear for ILS untill we blew past the RWY HDG, much into the other paralell ILS. Not impressed.
Just been a few months since Fdx in NRT hasn't it, have they even finished the investigation ?
And now we have yet another MD11 prang,big surprise, and from no less of an operator than Lufthansa.
Time to call this thing what it is, a dangerous unforgiving disaster of an Aircraft, completely unsuitable for civilian flying.
Ground it.
And now we have yet another MD11 prang,big surprise, and from no less of an operator than Lufthansa.
Time to call this thing what it is, a dangerous unforgiving disaster of an Aircraft, completely unsuitable for civilian flying.
Ground it.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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never forget the basics
Go and ask an average pilot about all the fancy fctl modes of A320 in various flight phases.......
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@squawk
Have a look to the report of the A330 test flight crash 1994 at Toulouse.
Even the chief test pilot wasn't aware of the autoflight mode/submode!
Have a look the Warsaw 320 overrun report! Very complex systems. Afterwards the mist cleared a bit. But must it have an accident to show all the fancy design features?
It's impossible to know all the features/modes/submodes beside different software-/hardware specs and modifications even within one type but different models.
Have a look to the report of the A330 test flight crash 1994 at Toulouse.
Even the chief test pilot wasn't aware of the autoflight mode/submode!
Have a look the Warsaw 320 overrun report! Very complex systems. Afterwards the mist cleared a bit. But must it have an accident to show all the fancy design features?
It's impossible to know all the features/modes/submodes beside different software-/hardware specs and modifications even within one type but different models.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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And now we have yet another MD11 prang,big surprise
The poor, unloved MD11. I actually feel sorry for it! But there is something not quite right with it. All they did wrong was put the wing further back than it should have been. That tailplane angle is bizarre.
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@Rainboe
To be fair, I thought he meant the aircraft "didn't look right sitting there" in the sense that a modern Lufthansa MD-11 parked with engine covers on in Mexico indeed "doesn't look right"... I'm not sure he was referring to damage.
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The poor, unloved MD11. I actually feel sorry for it!
He has been flying the airplane for quite a long time, and says that...'yes, it demands attention, as does any large airplane, at max landing weight, however, it is a delight to fly'....his words, not mine.
So, we seem to have those at extremes here, such as.....
And now we have yet another MD11 prang,big surprise, and from no less of an operator than Lufthansa.
Time to call this thing what it is, a dangerous unforgiving disaster of an Aircraft, completely unsuitable for civilian flying.
Time to call this thing what it is, a dangerous unforgiving disaster of an Aircraft, completely unsuitable for civilian flying.
Or, are somehow Lufty pilots immune from....slight mishaps?
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I have the utmost respect for LH, an airline with excellent pilots and procedures. I did see a inflight magazine on a LH flight recently which featured an article on a new pilot; if I remember correctly she had been with company less than 2 years and was flying the MD11. Considering before this she was probably training in a single engine aircraft one would have to admit this is a slight challenge.( agin my apologies if my facts are wrong....just saying it is a challenging first jet) Not sure what the crew experience was on type, but Lufthansa has been operating the MD11 for long time.
I myself have flown the md11 for approximately 8 years. My personal take is the 11 is a great airplane with lots of power and capabilities. It is less stable on landing than many aircraft and unfortunately not very forgiving of mistakes. The Hor Stab is 30-40 percent smaller than the DC10 and the elevator effectiveness on landing is noticeably different. Has very different characteristics on a light landing of say 300,000 lbs or heavey weight of 490,000. The pull and pray method ( let auto throttles go to idle and flare at 50 feet doesnt always work well....especially at lighter weights. With high wing loading it doesnt respond well to pushing the nose forward on a bounce or when slow.
Besides that I still have to say it is an awesome airplane....I think that most MD11 pilots would say the same.
I myself have flown the md11 for approximately 8 years. My personal take is the 11 is a great airplane with lots of power and capabilities. It is less stable on landing than many aircraft and unfortunately not very forgiving of mistakes. The Hor Stab is 30-40 percent smaller than the DC10 and the elevator effectiveness on landing is noticeably different. Has very different characteristics on a light landing of say 300,000 lbs or heavey weight of 490,000. The pull and pray method ( let auto throttles go to idle and flare at 50 feet doesnt always work well....especially at lighter weights. With high wing loading it doesnt respond well to pushing the nose forward on a bounce or when slow.
Besides that I still have to say it is an awesome airplane....I think that most MD11 pilots would say the same.
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Hi there, @casablanca, minimum requirement to fly MD11 for LH is 1000 hours on jet transport aircraft! So nobody with LH without jettime! Yes, the variety is extremly large, there are landings with 140 to at 45 degrees celsius at sealevel, there are landings at Mex 7700 ft, 20degrees celsius with 220 to, or at KJA(Krasnoyarsk) at -45 degrees. So it is a lot of work for the training departement, to get everybody prepared for the expected and unexpected! The plane has to be treated good, than it is good to you, Greets MD11f