Fokker 100 gear-up landing at Stuttgart

[itsresidualmate]

I seem to recall it was the MLG door that caused the hang-up last time

[ankh]

fireballs behind -- fuel? fire trucks spraying ...

Are the fireballs visible behind the aircraft while it's in the last moments of motion places where fuel is burning above the foamed runway? I see the fire trucks coming immediately after the aircraft halted (looks like they had a good idea how far it would slide!) and they were spraying well behind the aircraft as they approached it.

[broadreach]

Ankh,

Could be, but if you're racing down a runway wouldn't you like to be sure any stray pieces of hot metal ahead of you were foamed? Nasty things to pick up in one's tyres.

Admittedly, when I saw the clip, first thing I thought of was uh oh, hope he doesn't blind himself with foam and run into the aircraft!

Edited with a bow to Piltdown's post below: if not foam, perhaps water with a fire retarding additive. Either way, with all the sparks and possibility of hot metal on the tarmac, the fire truck drivers would presumably, and sensibly, be playing things safe by hosing ahead.

[Piltdown Man]

Was the runway actually foamed? I thought this practice was discontinued years ago as it served no useful process other than to boost the profits of the manufacturer of the foaming agent. Anyway, the crew did a good job!

And this is a load of tosh as well:

But then you could say the same about the F50 auto prop feather/reverse system that has recently casued (sic) yet another fatal accident.

The most recent problem in this area was with a Luxair aircraft where, due to a fault with an air/ground switch on the landing gear, ground idle became selectable in flight with fatal consequences.

PM

[Dutch Bru]

F100 LG issues

Obviously the F100 has quite some fans, but I also remembered that the types of this family have a long history of LG failures.

Just to back this up, have a look at the list of incidents over the years:

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Type index > ASN Aviation Safety Database results

Whether this is statistically significant I don't know, but the distint impression is there.

DB

[tocamak]

Whether this is statistically significant I don't know

Probably not statistically significant (assuming null hypothesis is that the landing gear does collapse) but certainly significant if it happens to you! However I think the "fans" of the type would take issue with tosh like:-

When I worked out of Schiphol we got so used to F100/ 70 and F28 gear collapses - usually the starboard gear - or stuck gear - that it became a non-event.

which seems to give the impression that Fokkers were sliding down the runway on a regular basis. A quick look at the data supplied by Dutch Bru does indicate problems early on with the gear (and some in AMS) but also says more about the geographical distribution of the operators of the type (one ended up in a dry river bed and another fired at with rocket propelled grenades, probably a non event somewhere!).

[Good memories]

Slats One,

The old problems with the gear of the F 100 were caused after landing. At a certain speed a vibration occurred which could brake the strut. After installing shimmy dampers the problem was solved. As far as I remember there were 4 landing accidents. 2 at SPL during test flights. 1 at Eelde during a test flight. 1 at Geneva and 1 at Montpellier during taxi on a training flight.
After the Montpellier accident the AIB detected the vibration by examining the voice recorder.


I have never heard of extension problems on the F 100. Pls. correct me if I am wrong.


Good Flying!

John

[Slats One]

Thanks Gents

Well Gents, thanks for the abuse- do you think I would type what I did without some basis of fact...

Thanks to Dutch Bru for providing some actual logged events via the Aviation Safety Network listing. Suggets you check out the history.

So its not 'tosh' is it.

What we can perhaps, posssibly say or agree on. is that you guys have not had the level of recent incidents that were prevalent in the past to others than your good selves.

So before slagging me off, think about scenarios beyond your own experience.

On that note I am leaving this forum as it seems anyone who dares to suggest a contrary viewpoint to perceived wisdom is attacked.

FYI: Perceived wisdom is a contracdiction in terms, as it relies upon the perceptions of the individual and the moment to achieve its opinion - which is therefore, selective, time limited and often wrong.

Adieu and fly safe with situational awareness.

[Slats One]

Good Memories - thanks for that point.

FYI - yes F100 has had stuck main gear incidents - as oppossed to the previously more common gear collpase event. F100 stuck main gear incidents prior to this week's, and these inlcude TAM at Sao Paulo and Air Dolomiti.

They were a long time ago, and the trap I fell into was cite incidents from over 10 years ago in an environment where fellow Pruners have not had recent events -so their opinions are different.

I guess I chould have chosen my words more carefully, but the level of reactive 'fire' from some does surprise me.. Just becasue it has not happened to one person does not mean the problem did not happen to another...

As I say, time for a holding pattern...

[tocamak]

So its not 'tosh' is it.

On reflection a bit harsh so apologies.

However the impression given was that at SPL (AMS) it was a common event to have gear problems and this is not the case. The "fans" of the type I suspect come from the largest user of the type at AMS and the combined exposure they have had against the incidence of the problem means that in their experience it just isn't an issue. They also have had exposure to the type since the early nineties so it does go back some way.

[vovachan]

Are the fireballs visible behind the aircraft while it's in the last moments of motion places where fuel is burning above the foamed runway?

I thought it was just heavy sparking? And where exactly would that fuel be coming from? Anyway pls remind me never to travel on this ac if it throws burning fuel on a belly landing

[JFA]

Not to mention that TAM really gave the Fokker 100 a bad name overall. Not because of the plane in itself, but because at that time the company was trying to invent a new aviation altogether.

But one cannot really argue about this event until something written comes out of the investigation. Many causes can stick to it easely, but few will hold.

[ankh]

sparking?

Dunno; I've seen that kind of nearly spherical effect in videos of engines stuttering as well; puffs of vapor of some kind igniting? They're intermittent in the video, the last bright stuff, toward the end. I asked because it appears to begin about the time the aircraft seems to be dragging the right wing a bit. Trust me, I'm utterly ignorant about this vehicle, just asking whether there are two different things going on in the film --- the big shower of hot metal sparks is quite recognizable from the beginning contact; the little round fireball things occur as that's about over, just at the end. Engine backfiring from being banged hard? Just curious.

[greybeard]

An Australian operator has had one main wheel detatch on landing and one scissor link break causing the wheels to not run straight.
Both were a nasty surprise, but no real drama according to those involved.

[IAW]

greybeard: Australian aircraft in question was fitted with the older style landing gear. Not sure if this had any bearing on the incident. A stronger steel MLG was introduced to the type after a certain year.

[Dani]

Correct, those with the stronger undercarriage also lift more max take-off weight. As far as I know Contact has the normal version.

Dani

[Juliet Sierra Papa]

Hi Guys, I've been replaying those vids over and over and questions keep coming to mind each time I see it. Was the runway foamed? What is the SOP with regard to engine thrust on landing if MLG is inop? Would this change if foam or no foam? If no reverse thrust and no MLG braking how did this aircraft stop so quickly?
Donning my flak jacket

Thanks....JSP

[Herod]

Friction between several tons of metal and a hard surface.

[Chu Chu]

One hazard of grinding aluminum is that the dust created can potentially reach an explosive concentration. I imagine more than a little aluminum was being ground as the aircraft slid down the runway. I don't know if that explains the fireballs, but it seems like a possibility.

[fokkerjet]

The investigation by the German investigation authorities Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung, with the support of the operator and Fokker Services, has revealed that the cause of the MLG extension problem was the partially blocked hydraulic return line from the main landing gear selector valve. This blockade was caused by a piece of hard plastic. This piece of plastic was identified as a part of the poppet seat of parking brake shutoff valve.

If I recall correctly, all gear problems were F100's, with the Messier-Dowty components; the F70 does not have this gear. According to sources, the most probable
cause of both the main fitting and sliding member cracks was a high compressive stress during
braking at higher deceleration levels, leaving a residual tensile stress at release of the heavy
braking load. Subsequently, this local residual tensile stress results in a negative effect on the
fatigue life of the component.