Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

One Key Fits All Boeing Flight Decks: Lord Janner

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

One Key Fits All Boeing Flight Decks: Lord Janner

Old 6th Oct 2001, 15:27
  #1 (permalink)  
The Guvnor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Exclamation One Key Fits All Boeing Flight Decks: Lord Janner

From today's Telegraph:

One key to all Boeing cockpits, claims peer
By Andy McSmith
(Filed: 06/10/2001)

ALL Boeing aircraft use the same standard key to lock and unlock the cockpit door, a Labour peer alleged yesterday.

Lord Janner said it was "absolute madness" that there were thousands of keys in circulation that could be used to gain access to the cockpit on any passenger aircraft made by the American firm.

The only exception was the Boeing planes used by El Al, the Israeli national airline.

The standard keys are thought to have been issued at the request of the airlines, because pilots have to fly a different plane each day.

The peer said the issue had been raised with him by a serving airline pilot.

A Boeing spokesman said the company did not comment on security but recognised that it would have to be improved following the terrorist attacks.

Lord Janner, a prominent figure in Britain's Jewish community, said: "It is grotesque that there aren't separate keys and locks for each aircraft. It is absolute madness, particularly following the events of September 11.

"The Government must order that locks on these aircraft are changed."

He has also raised the fact that airline passengers are still served wine in long-stemmed glasses, although metal knives are now banned.

"They don't seem to have thought this through. If you break the bottom off one of the glasses, you've got a lethal weapon."

Lord Janner pressed for improvement to cockpit security by installing stronger doors and walls.

A Boeing spokesman said: "All our aircraft are designed and built to meet safety requirements of airlines and regulatory authorities."

The Civil Aviation Authority said: "The locking of cockpit doors is only one part of a specific set of procedures which are constantly under review by the CAA and the Department of Transport. It's the responsibility of airlines to ensure that there is no easy access to the flight deck."
According to sources, Lord Janner is apparently also a keen PPRuNer.
 
Old 6th Oct 2001, 15:40
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: MAN
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Changing the locks and having numerous keys may be a solution but difficult to administer on a large fleet. How about combination locks or finger print/iris identification as well. Is a modified door lock really going to keep a determined terrorist out - i dont think so.
Flapskew is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2001, 15:44
  #3 (permalink)  

Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 885
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Talking

Trying to bring some cheer to the otherwise serious subject...

At least the the AA & RAC could open aviation sections for all those of us who seem to lose things or have locked the ignition key in the car....

[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: pilotwolf ]
pilotwolf is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2001, 16:07
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,204
Likes: 0
Received 24 Likes on 10 Posts
Talking

Just a thought. Why not make the cockpit door of full length bullet proof glass with a one way mirror, so that the pilots could see what is going on in the cabin, but the cabin occupants could not see through into the cockpit. That way, the cockpit crew would have early warning of a problem and take appropriate action such as violent flight manoeuvres.
Centaurus is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2001, 16:14
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: OZ
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

If the cockpit door can only be locked from the cockpit side, why do you need a key?

A deadbolt would do.
ozoilfield is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2001, 16:24
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Arrow

It is obvious from the above the number of non pilots that feel free to comment on a subject that they clearly know nothing about.
kippa is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2001, 16:28
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: MAN
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Centaurus

Good idea - we will still be able to read the newspaper without upsetting the pax, but it still does not resolve the issue of the locks. We need to get in and out at present. Welfare/CRM and all that.
Flapskew is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2001, 16:30
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 1,257
Received 14 Likes on 8 Posts
Post

Discussed this on my company site last week. 757 only needs a 60-80lb pull to overide the damn lock anyhow.

Bring back big, fat, smelly flight engineers!!! Nobody gave them any crap!

Key exists in case the captain goes a little bit myocardial whilst the FO is having a "catering offload" in the little room behind the flightdeck. Remember that Beech 18 where the pilot was screwing his passenger in the cabin and the door slammed shut? How about that Aeroflot Airbus with the (unconfirmed) report of two kids at the controls?

Extra door between FD and cabin.
blue up is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2001, 16:31
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: MAN
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Chatham Dockyard

Enlighten us - the truth is out there
Flapskew is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2001, 18:16
  #10 (permalink)  

Don Quixote Impersonator
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Tried the individual key per aircraft, and I'm here to tell you it doesn't work.
Well it does lock the door, but if nobody's got the right key it can bring up some really interesting situations and I'm only talking about a fleet of 2 dozen aircraft.
Wound up with one key fits all and how do you then control the issue of keys and copying?
Bring on electronic or key card locks.

But the answer still lies on the ground BEFORE they get on board.
gaunty is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2001, 22:15
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Red face

You're all so worried about various methods of locking that stupid door, one way or another. It is irrelevant. Here is why.

Can anyone tell me how many attempts there have been at forcing a door open so far???

I have never heard of one. The door in every case was either not locked at all or opened by the crew themselves (obviously as a result of threats from terrorists).

So no matter how good your lock, the terrorist will convince the crew, one way or another, to open the damn door or else...
Centre Command is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2001, 15:14
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Chatham Dockyard
I totally agree. The amount of cr*p being spouted not only here but in the press/media is .....

Gaunty and Centre Command are right.
What matters is what happens on the ground.
Hijackers aren't going to be stopped by the CAA's daft kneejerk reaction of immediately banning flight deck visits, or locked doors.

Also, and I realise this may be a more controversial view, but I think if security changes are so extreme that our lifestyles are dramatically changed (all our lifestyles, not just as aviators), then the terrorists have already won a major victory.
We have to accept some risk, or life will become unbearably restrictive. Two hour check-ins for domestic flights, for example, are unacceptable.
Plastic cuttlery, plastic 'glasses', where do you stop? Virtually anything can be used or adapted as a weapon by someone determined enough. Strip searches before flight? We have to keep some sense of proportion or the security restrictions will be unbearable.

I know a disgruntled/mentally deranged Fedex employee in the junpseat decided to try to get revenge on his company, but how many hijackers have asked permission to visit the flight deck?
Let's keep some sense of proportion.
virgin is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2001, 15:26
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: OZ
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Why not totally ban all carryon baggage? Would be one less thing to search.
ozoilfield is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2001, 16:17
  #14 (permalink)  
The Guvnor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Cool

I have here in front of me a copy of the "Direction to Aircraft Operators, Aerodrome Managers, Security Approved Cargo Agents, and Catering Undertakings under the Aviation Security Act 1982 Relating to Heightened Security Measures 2001", which was issued by DTLR on the 26th September.

Without going into detail, it's clear that many airlines - and airports - are going well beyond the guidelines set down by the DTLR. There is, for example, no restriction placed on the presence of glassware or metal cutlery on board UK aircraft (though razor blades (both open bladed and safety razors) are on the list, as are darts and knitting needles).

Perhaps instead of trying to lull pax into a false sense of security with those rather pointless exercises, maybe they should be employing the 'Dunkirk Spirit' and showing that no matter what terrorists try to do, we will continue with our way of life - unbowed and unintimidated.
 
Old 8th Oct 2001, 04:38
  #15 (permalink)  

Rebel PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

As an SLF, I just want to comment on why people do bring some things like razors on board - if you're on a late night flight into, say, STN for an early morning onward connection and then discover that (a) your bag wasn't tagged at the originating airport and (b) everything is closed at STN overnight then you start to wish you had a little bag of essentials to make an overnight at that rather chilly establishment more bearable.

This is of course a completely fictional situation

If loss of luggage wasn't a frequent occurrence people wouldn't want to bring most of it into the cabin - it's a pain in the ars* to lug about.

Just a thought.
MarkD is offline  
Old 8th Oct 2001, 17:06
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: london,UK
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

It seems to me we all have an individual key already - our ID & PIN.Why not fit all cockpit doors with swipers,& either a fleet database or even just the crew on the day?

[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: rob777 ]
rob777 is offline  
Old 8th Oct 2001, 20:04
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Essex,UK
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Surely it is not an issue if there is only 1 key to fit all if there was a bolt in the cockpit to lock the door, anyway I could imagine the outcry if the flight was delayed due to previous crew accidentally taking the key home !!
PaulDGriggs is offline  
Old 8th Oct 2001, 21:46
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wink

i do not think you will ever be able to make the flight deck totally secure because you always have to allow for de-compression scenarios which includes some sort of blowout mech incorporated into the door structure.anyway who would try a hijack now,they would not stand a chance!!!
choopacubra is offline  
Old 8th Oct 2001, 22:08
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

I think that all this talk of locked, bulletproof, security doors has overlooked one point. What happens when the crew need to go down the back for a pee??? The hijacker need only wait serupticiously at the flightdeck door after taking control of the cabin. I believe the only aircraft with a loo directly accesible from the flightdeck is the 747-400? So then, is the mod programme for thousands of aircraft going to include an entire new toilet installation as well as the "impenetrable" door??? I believe the best solution is (unfortunately) a semi automatic pistol on the flightdeck with a Captain who is not afraid to use it. Even this has its problems, day to day security of the weapon itself, and effects on the aircraft if it was actually used.
basil fawlty is offline  
Old 8th Oct 2001, 23:02
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: toronto canada
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

here's a suggestion to all. When all matters get uncontrollable, how about we have some form of immobilizing agent that will temporarily handicap an attacker so we as aviators can ensure a safe dissolve?, i am talking about some form of tear gas that can be dispensed in the enviromental system of the cabin. We as pilots, won't suffer from such discharge as we have our own means of providing a steady uncontaminated stream of breathable air (i.e. quick donnig mask coupled with smoke goggles). Of course the entire pax and remaining crew in the rear will suffer, but just a temporary dose that can be cleared of with minor minor side effects will suffice. This will give us time to make a desicion and a safe way to resolve a situation with just minor side effects and enough time to apprehend the culprits. How many hijackers/terrorist would think or be able to sneak a PBE on board. Plus we know all f/a stations should be armed with a pbe of their own, this however should be concealed. Get some laboratories to work on such an agent. This could be used in many different situations. This is what i think, and if anybody thinks that this could be a viable option and act as a last resort, together with having our cockpit doors locked at all times, i know we will have it made. and pls. I would like to get the credit if this ever materializes. good luck to all.
flyguy93 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.