You won't believe this
Guest
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You won't believe this
Every word of this is true. I swear.
Some of you may think its a cheap shot but read on. This is an example of who may be at the controls of the innocent little triangle you see on your TCAS.
To set the scene. I work for a small company operating a jet aircraft on a foreign registration. The jet has Efis, FMS, Eicas etc and most of us have UK licences flying on foreign licences based on our brit ones.
The particular person who all this relates to is an ex-mil guy and is one of the reasons CRM was invented. He's a do it yourself man, always in a hurry, has no repect for the people he shares a flight deck with, does not read the books and refuses recurrent training. Here goes.
One Sunday last October descending south of Gatwick in VS mode doing 340Kts. Our A/C has an envelope protection which pulls the nose up in case of an overspeed. Passing 8000' the VMO reduces to 300Kts. Although a captain, for this sector Im sitting in the RHS. I warn him of the speed. He replies he wants to see what will happen. Sure enough the nose pulls up and, to cut a long story short, we climb 1700' before the speed reduces to 300Kts. I hand over the controls back to him.
The very next flight i do with him, i'm on the jump seat for this one, the weather was Broken cloud 400' or so above minimums but was very windy. A Loc only App, he elects to fly the approach based on the FMS with the LOC tuned in and displyed on the Co-Pilots MFD. No brief is given to the P2. The a/c Intercepts the Loc. At the descent point he does not commence his descent. The P2 advises him of this. He then reaches for the Alt selector, spins it down, selects VS and descends at 300'min. Our a/c places a donut on the VSI to constantly give you a required rate of descent to arrive at 50' over the threshold from present position. It was, at this point on around 1100 fpm. From the jump seat i tell him he needs a greater ROD. He increases the VS to around 700fpm. (this poses a very interesting senrio for a JS occupant)
Through the broken Layer and now very high, he sees the runway, disconnects the auto pilot, announces he can make it from here and lands heavily half way down a 7000' wet runway. Nothing is said taxiing in. When the passengers get off, our commander unloads his bags and drives home. I take the P2 to a private location, sit down and discussed what happened.
Sure enough, again im the jumpseat occupant, same airport, same senario, different P2. weather not windy but cloud base at around 1200'. we approach the descent point, he tells the P2 to wind the alt selector to MDA, but before the P2 can reach and turn the alt selector, our commander reaches for the VS mode then the VS wheel and rotates it for a descent. If the alt selector has not been moved, the autopilt reverts to Pitch mode. He then selects VNAV as our GPS computed Glideslope is centered and we begin a descent for the runway. As it is an uncomfortable capture the aircraft dolphins as it corrects to the required ROD. He then tells the P2 to set the alt selector at the G/A altitude. The P2 does this and as the alt selector altitude passes through the actual aircraft altitude, the VNAV drops out and once again we are in Pitch mode. Due to the dolphin like capture, the a/c was in an almost level attitude. I informed him of this and he said it will recapture, that's what they told him in the sim. I said it won't. He said it will. Once again we are getting high and in IMC. I politely suggest he asks for vectors to be repositioned. he says no and rotates the VS wheel a couple of notches. Still in pitch mode. I told him he needed a greater ROD and to put "the dick in the donut" so to speak. He was telling us all that in the sim they had told him this was a gotcha and you should wind the alt selector to the G/A alt. 2.5 miles from touchdown at 1260 feet, he sees the runway, disconnects the A/P and dives for the ground. The GPWS must have had a sore throat when it finished. We landed heavily and had to use max braking to avoid running off the end of the rwy.
After we park up he says that wasn't very good was it and a heated discussion begins. Our leader then goes home after a brief discussion about the merits of VNAV.
I phoned the app controller on my way home and asked for training purposes if a printout of thr approach was available. Sadly it was not that easy.
It is almost 90 days until he flies again. Jumping strait into LHS and asking me to fly a sector with him. Just as we get airbourne, we are in a right turn passing 1000' climbing to 3400' he is hand flying the aircraft. He reaches down and tunes the radio to the next frequency, even though we haven't been asked to change over. I have to keep a knee under the control column as we approach 30degrees of bank and remind him to watch his bank angle.
Two sectors later he lands at a 2000' elevation airport with the cabin alt set at sea level, he had been the NHP on this sector. It is unclear as to whether he read the checklist or not.
They then depart to go to a mediterranean airport. The P2 throws the bags out the back of the A/C whilst the pax deplane. When the bags are unloaded, the P2 comes forward and as he does hears the right engine start and sees the door closing. P2 gets in to the RHS and asks if the P1 has done everything. He says no but we gotta get going. The P2, heads down punches in the flt plan into the FMS, works out the T/O speeds, gets those bugged up, tries to complete the after starts, taxi checks and write the clearance down. they had been parked close to the threshold.
The tower clears them to line up and takeoff, it was dark, the P2 still heads down hears the engines spool up, feels the acceleration and then hears the tower say, you are on the taxiway, take the next left and line up cleared for takeoff. They are going too fast to take the next turn off.
Eventually they get on the runway, he announces, lets get out of here and they get airbourne. On climb out the only discussion that is ever had is, from him to the P2, well i guess you learnt something today. I didnt know they had built a new runway here. They then proceed to destination where when they shutdown, he has shutdown with the thrust reversers deployed!
This is a person who wrote to one of our captains and i quote "it is inexcusable for you to ever question my decisions".
People like this are still opearting in todays environment. I am sure this guy is not the only guy like this. If you fly with a guy like the one described above, do your profession a favour and get rid of them as quickly as possible.
[This message has been edited by 604driver (edited 05 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by 604driver (edited 05 April 2001).]
Some of you may think its a cheap shot but read on. This is an example of who may be at the controls of the innocent little triangle you see on your TCAS.
To set the scene. I work for a small company operating a jet aircraft on a foreign registration. The jet has Efis, FMS, Eicas etc and most of us have UK licences flying on foreign licences based on our brit ones.
The particular person who all this relates to is an ex-mil guy and is one of the reasons CRM was invented. He's a do it yourself man, always in a hurry, has no repect for the people he shares a flight deck with, does not read the books and refuses recurrent training. Here goes.
One Sunday last October descending south of Gatwick in VS mode doing 340Kts. Our A/C has an envelope protection which pulls the nose up in case of an overspeed. Passing 8000' the VMO reduces to 300Kts. Although a captain, for this sector Im sitting in the RHS. I warn him of the speed. He replies he wants to see what will happen. Sure enough the nose pulls up and, to cut a long story short, we climb 1700' before the speed reduces to 300Kts. I hand over the controls back to him.
The very next flight i do with him, i'm on the jump seat for this one, the weather was Broken cloud 400' or so above minimums but was very windy. A Loc only App, he elects to fly the approach based on the FMS with the LOC tuned in and displyed on the Co-Pilots MFD. No brief is given to the P2. The a/c Intercepts the Loc. At the descent point he does not commence his descent. The P2 advises him of this. He then reaches for the Alt selector, spins it down, selects VS and descends at 300'min. Our a/c places a donut on the VSI to constantly give you a required rate of descent to arrive at 50' over the threshold from present position. It was, at this point on around 1100 fpm. From the jump seat i tell him he needs a greater ROD. He increases the VS to around 700fpm. (this poses a very interesting senrio for a JS occupant)
Through the broken Layer and now very high, he sees the runway, disconnects the auto pilot, announces he can make it from here and lands heavily half way down a 7000' wet runway. Nothing is said taxiing in. When the passengers get off, our commander unloads his bags and drives home. I take the P2 to a private location, sit down and discussed what happened.
Sure enough, again im the jumpseat occupant, same airport, same senario, different P2. weather not windy but cloud base at around 1200'. we approach the descent point, he tells the P2 to wind the alt selector to MDA, but before the P2 can reach and turn the alt selector, our commander reaches for the VS mode then the VS wheel and rotates it for a descent. If the alt selector has not been moved, the autopilt reverts to Pitch mode. He then selects VNAV as our GPS computed Glideslope is centered and we begin a descent for the runway. As it is an uncomfortable capture the aircraft dolphins as it corrects to the required ROD. He then tells the P2 to set the alt selector at the G/A altitude. The P2 does this and as the alt selector altitude passes through the actual aircraft altitude, the VNAV drops out and once again we are in Pitch mode. Due to the dolphin like capture, the a/c was in an almost level attitude. I informed him of this and he said it will recapture, that's what they told him in the sim. I said it won't. He said it will. Once again we are getting high and in IMC. I politely suggest he asks for vectors to be repositioned. he says no and rotates the VS wheel a couple of notches. Still in pitch mode. I told him he needed a greater ROD and to put "the dick in the donut" so to speak. He was telling us all that in the sim they had told him this was a gotcha and you should wind the alt selector to the G/A alt. 2.5 miles from touchdown at 1260 feet, he sees the runway, disconnects the A/P and dives for the ground. The GPWS must have had a sore throat when it finished. We landed heavily and had to use max braking to avoid running off the end of the rwy.
After we park up he says that wasn't very good was it and a heated discussion begins. Our leader then goes home after a brief discussion about the merits of VNAV.
I phoned the app controller on my way home and asked for training purposes if a printout of thr approach was available. Sadly it was not that easy.
It is almost 90 days until he flies again. Jumping strait into LHS and asking me to fly a sector with him. Just as we get airbourne, we are in a right turn passing 1000' climbing to 3400' he is hand flying the aircraft. He reaches down and tunes the radio to the next frequency, even though we haven't been asked to change over. I have to keep a knee under the control column as we approach 30degrees of bank and remind him to watch his bank angle.
Two sectors later he lands at a 2000' elevation airport with the cabin alt set at sea level, he had been the NHP on this sector. It is unclear as to whether he read the checklist or not.
They then depart to go to a mediterranean airport. The P2 throws the bags out the back of the A/C whilst the pax deplane. When the bags are unloaded, the P2 comes forward and as he does hears the right engine start and sees the door closing. P2 gets in to the RHS and asks if the P1 has done everything. He says no but we gotta get going. The P2, heads down punches in the flt plan into the FMS, works out the T/O speeds, gets those bugged up, tries to complete the after starts, taxi checks and write the clearance down. they had been parked close to the threshold.
The tower clears them to line up and takeoff, it was dark, the P2 still heads down hears the engines spool up, feels the acceleration and then hears the tower say, you are on the taxiway, take the next left and line up cleared for takeoff. They are going too fast to take the next turn off.
Eventually they get on the runway, he announces, lets get out of here and they get airbourne. On climb out the only discussion that is ever had is, from him to the P2, well i guess you learnt something today. I didnt know they had built a new runway here. They then proceed to destination where when they shutdown, he has shutdown with the thrust reversers deployed!
This is a person who wrote to one of our captains and i quote "it is inexcusable for you to ever question my decisions".
People like this are still opearting in todays environment. I am sure this guy is not the only guy like this. If you fly with a guy like the one described above, do your profession a favour and get rid of them as quickly as possible.
[This message has been edited by 604driver (edited 05 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by 604driver (edited 05 April 2001).]
Guest
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I think it is your( or who ever gets into this kind of scenario ) to report it to the chief pilot before he kills somebody. Better to feel uncomfortable if you will fly with him again than see him kill you or anyone you know, and donīt forget all the pax.
Brgds M.H.
Brgds M.H.
Guest
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Desk Driver,
A wise old aviator once told me "you start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck". As long as no names are mentioned then the sharing of incidents and senarios is extremely helpful to pilots and anyone connected with aviation to learn from others experiences (good or bad). Thats one of the reasons for CHIRP.
However I do agree with innocent until proved guilty, but if this guy is as consistently dangerous as he is portrayed, then someone has got to have the balls to tell the Chief pilot, and do us all a big favour.
FBW
P.s. How can you refuse recurrent training, surely base checks would have weeded him out?
[This message has been edited by FLY BY WIRE (edited 05 April 2001).]
A wise old aviator once told me "you start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck". As long as no names are mentioned then the sharing of incidents and senarios is extremely helpful to pilots and anyone connected with aviation to learn from others experiences (good or bad). Thats one of the reasons for CHIRP.
However I do agree with innocent until proved guilty, but if this guy is as consistently dangerous as he is portrayed, then someone has got to have the balls to tell the Chief pilot, and do us all a big favour.
FBW
P.s. How can you refuse recurrent training, surely base checks would have weeded him out?
[This message has been edited by FLY BY WIRE (edited 05 April 2001).]
Guest
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Does your company have QAR's fitted?? If they do, they provide a wonderful account of gash operators.
Obviously there are always two sides to any story, but from what i've read this pilot is very non-standard, and looks like an accident waiting to happen. Its up to you and you colleagues to report what is going on. There are subtle ways to prove things, and if this guy isn't able to change his ways the management should and probably would remove this character.
Obviously there are always two sides to any story, but from what i've read this pilot is very non-standard, and looks like an accident waiting to happen. Its up to you and you colleagues to report what is going on. There are subtle ways to prove things, and if this guy isn't able to change his ways the management should and probably would remove this character.
Guest
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F B W
I agree that if true this guy is dangerous and you need to know via your management right away.
The whole aviation industry does not need to know until it's proven. I'm not saying 604 is a liar far from it. However PPRUNE would not allow him to be named I'm sure, so what use is it to any of us anyway.
What if he's just rubbed an FO up the wrong way, what if its all exagerated or even just plain malicous. I don't think he should be tried and convicted here. What would you feel if you read something like that about you that just was'nt true. How could you defend yourself without identifying yourself (by Proxy) to the whole forum. Then you run the risk of beeing tarred forever.
Safe flying to all
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You fly em we'll fill em!
I agree that if true this guy is dangerous and you need to know via your management right away.
The whole aviation industry does not need to know until it's proven. I'm not saying 604 is a liar far from it. However PPRUNE would not allow him to be named I'm sure, so what use is it to any of us anyway.
What if he's just rubbed an FO up the wrong way, what if its all exagerated or even just plain malicous. I don't think he should be tried and convicted here. What would you feel if you read something like that about you that just was'nt true. How could you defend yourself without identifying yourself (by Proxy) to the whole forum. Then you run the risk of beeing tarred forever.
Safe flying to all
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You fly em we'll fill em!
Guest
Posts: n/a
This has got to be a wind-up?! If he's that bad 604, why do you ever get in an a/c with him and why haven't you reported him already? Seems like the blame lies with you to some degree having seen his operation many times and done nothing about it.
Guest
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This guy would be weeded out even in the military, so the fact that he's ex-mil is beside the point.
Since no airline or names are mentioned, he should maybe undergo a drug test. The behavior you describe is too far out there, and might (and I emphasize "might") be explained by this. It's also possible a medical condition is at the root of his behavior. In any event, he's a hazard right now, with an overrun accident being possible based on your observations.
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Safe flying to you...
Since no airline or names are mentioned, he should maybe undergo a drug test. The behavior you describe is too far out there, and might (and I emphasize "might") be explained by this. It's also possible a medical condition is at the root of his behavior. In any event, he's a hazard right now, with an overrun accident being possible based on your observations.
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Safe flying to you...
Guest
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I can't vouch for the internal stuff, but I can confirm that:
(a) The approach was steep, and landed half way down a very wet 7000ft runway.
(b) A call was made from someone who was in the jumpseat requesting radar recordings.
604.....perhaps not the best place to air yr dirty laundry ol' chum. Put it throught the proper channels.
Remember, only air here what you know might be found out. You never know who is reading. If I could work it out from one post I'm sure yr peers could.
Be safe.
(a) The approach was steep, and landed half way down a very wet 7000ft runway.
(b) A call was made from someone who was in the jumpseat requesting radar recordings.
604.....perhaps not the best place to air yr dirty laundry ol' chum. Put it throught the proper channels.
Remember, only air here what you know might be found out. You never know who is reading. If I could work it out from one post I'm sure yr peers could.
Be safe.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sounds like 604driver is just looking for a bit of moral support to encourage him to do the established thing and report the fellow through the normal channels.
Since the people involved, including the company, remain anonymous, we cannot judge that the accused is being tried and morally convicted here on a public forum, can we?
Since the people involved, including the company, remain anonymous, we cannot judge that the accused is being tried and morally convicted here on a public forum, can we?
Guest
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Bright-Ling. Thanks I'll get in touch.
I'll be honest and say that this is not necessarily the place to air dirty laundry. I originally sent a msg to Danny asking if i should just re-register my log on and write this annonymously. But why should I. I am not airing dirty laundry, I'm merely pointing out, with examples, that our profession has not weeded out people like this and i am sure this guy is not the only one of his type in the air.
Our industry spends millions on designing gadgets to prevent us from bumping into each other or into the ground and the equipment is only as good as the guy using it.
I would dearly love to know if he is the only one like this operating in our hemisphere.
I have to put my hand on my heart and say that i passed him on his last base check. I signed up his licence and he is with us. At the time he flew a reasonable ride. Taking that flight on its merits, i could not fail him. I have refused to examine him again.
I'll be honest and say that this is not necessarily the place to air dirty laundry. I originally sent a msg to Danny asking if i should just re-register my log on and write this annonymously. But why should I. I am not airing dirty laundry, I'm merely pointing out, with examples, that our profession has not weeded out people like this and i am sure this guy is not the only one of his type in the air.
Our industry spends millions on designing gadgets to prevent us from bumping into each other or into the ground and the equipment is only as good as the guy using it.
I would dearly love to know if he is the only one like this operating in our hemisphere.
I have to put my hand on my heart and say that i passed him on his last base check. I signed up his licence and he is with us. At the time he flew a reasonable ride. Taking that flight on its merits, i could not fail him. I have refused to examine him again.
Guest
Posts: n/a
604driver,
Hmmm, a very tricky spot to be in.
Let's assume that there is a problem, though I agree with the 'innocent until proven guilty' remarks above. The apparently substantive remarks from an ATC friend seem worth noting. (A formal report from ATC might trigger an external examination ofthe circumstances.....?).
First, well done for deciding to do something about this, and also for having been sufficiently professional to take a check ride performance on its merits - all part of being a checker/examiner/whatever.
Now, I realise that you may be a small operation. But, you still have owners/shareholders whose assets you go to work in, and you do transport people of some importance to their employers, families, and so on. These people should not be exposed to unacceptable risk.
Approaching your management above the chief pilot maybe difficult, as they are probably the ones who appointed him to that position. Other agencies, such as the NBAA, may be able to help.
You could try contacting your insurance company, who may be concerned that they are exposed to more risk than is acceptable.
However, if this chap is your chief pilot, my guess is that at some time in his career he has been an aviator of at least average ability. Have you taken time to have a friendly chat with him in a non-confrontational manner, perhaps with another trainer present who shares your views? How about talking to somebody you both know, and whom you know he respects, about this - in order that some peer pressure can be brought gently to bear?
There are many companies providing 'off the shelf' CRM courses, and suggesting you all go on one of these together, might well start a learning process.
If he does not respond positively to criticism, then a CVR/DFDR playback of the next incident you see, might well give an oportunity for him to see his behaviour on paper or in playback, and to reflect calmly upon it.
Whilst I find the incidents you have described entirely unacceptable, this chap may have strengths of which you are unaware, which are worth hanging onto. He may have a medical problem, of course, which may be stress-related.
I do agree that you need to do something, but think carefully about what......
You are clearly happy enough in your present job to stay (I guess that 604 pilots are in some demand), and if you succeed in un-seating your chief pilot, it may not get you the best possible reputation in your industry. Remember, it's a small world.
My e-mail address is available above, if you wish to respond more privately.
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'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.
Hmmm, a very tricky spot to be in.
Let's assume that there is a problem, though I agree with the 'innocent until proven guilty' remarks above. The apparently substantive remarks from an ATC friend seem worth noting. (A formal report from ATC might trigger an external examination ofthe circumstances.....?).
First, well done for deciding to do something about this, and also for having been sufficiently professional to take a check ride performance on its merits - all part of being a checker/examiner/whatever.
Now, I realise that you may be a small operation. But, you still have owners/shareholders whose assets you go to work in, and you do transport people of some importance to their employers, families, and so on. These people should not be exposed to unacceptable risk.
Approaching your management above the chief pilot maybe difficult, as they are probably the ones who appointed him to that position. Other agencies, such as the NBAA, may be able to help.
You could try contacting your insurance company, who may be concerned that they are exposed to more risk than is acceptable.
However, if this chap is your chief pilot, my guess is that at some time in his career he has been an aviator of at least average ability. Have you taken time to have a friendly chat with him in a non-confrontational manner, perhaps with another trainer present who shares your views? How about talking to somebody you both know, and whom you know he respects, about this - in order that some peer pressure can be brought gently to bear?
There are many companies providing 'off the shelf' CRM courses, and suggesting you all go on one of these together, might well start a learning process.
If he does not respond positively to criticism, then a CVR/DFDR playback of the next incident you see, might well give an oportunity for him to see his behaviour on paper or in playback, and to reflect calmly upon it.
Whilst I find the incidents you have described entirely unacceptable, this chap may have strengths of which you are unaware, which are worth hanging onto. He may have a medical problem, of course, which may be stress-related.
I do agree that you need to do something, but think carefully about what......
You are clearly happy enough in your present job to stay (I guess that 604 pilots are in some demand), and if you succeed in un-seating your chief pilot, it may not get you the best possible reputation in your industry. Remember, it's a small world.
My e-mail address is available above, if you wish to respond more privately.
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'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.