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Yemeni airliner down?

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Yemeni airliner down?

Old 1st Jul 2009, 08:52
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Iosa Audit

Has somebody access to the IOSA audit of Yemenia as it seems that the A310 operations has been exempted of the audit scope and has not been approved by the IOSA auditor. Why ?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:05
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Hi,

It's amazing .....

Quote:
Yemenia Chairman Abdulkalek Saleh Al-Kadi said in a telephone interview. “It was purely weather.”
Investigation completed.
He have a friend ..

Google translation

This is not Airbus, who is involved, a particular model of aircraft. A crash is a set of things, sometimes neglected, an error of steering or bad weather, said on France Inter on french Secretary of State for Transport, Dominique Bussereau.
Source
Les Comores mettent en cause Paris dans l'accident de l'A310 - Yahoo! Actualités

So .. Mr Bussereau know already before eveyone and before any investigation that's Airbus Industry is not involved ... the plane is perfect with no defaults .. know or unknow...
Well ............... that's a good start .

Bye.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:13
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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The chart overlay covers an area of about 12nm N to S - approximately the area for a southerly rwy20 teardrop.

"40 km [25 miles] from Grande Comore" (quoting BBC) is far away from there.



edit: image removed

Last edited by 20milesout; 1st Jul 2009 at 10:13. Reason: image removed
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:28
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Nowadays audits produce little real inside information about company culture, which is arguably more important that how they do their paperwork
Or what they SAY is the paperwork. In the absence of a positive culture and in the presence of incompetence and corruption, paperwork can be meaningless. General comment to a general comment and not directed at Yemenia, about which I know nothing.

When will the basic facts of this accident be confirmed? It would seem that with winds from the South (Variously reported to date as being from SE and SW) the approach must have been to Runway 20. An approach at night with no ILS? Were there several aborted attempts at landing or not? It seems an awful ong way out, although again, distance reproted variously from 9 miles to 20 miles North of the field. It seems we really have very little so far?

Last edited by philipat; 1st Jul 2009 at 10:16.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 10:21
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Southernboy View Post
<snip>
Nowadays audits produce little real inside information about company culture, which is arguably more important that how they do their paperwork.
Surely how they do the paperwork is part of the company culture?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 11:19
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Whether Yemania had been banned in Europe or not, this plane would have gone down anyway. Last departure point was Yemen, not Europe, so the flight would have still happenned. It may just have meant fewer Europeans on the flight but there still would have been casualties. Unless the bans become Global, these airlines can still operate in their relative regions in the same manner surely?

Rob
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 11:46
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Callas View Post
Yemenia was on an EU watchlist because of safety concerns and had not flown A310s into France after a mid-2007 inspection of the plane that crashed, French Transportation Minister Dominique Bussereau said. “This plane had been excluded from the national territory because it represented certain irregularities,” he told members of parliament.......... “This airline was under strict surveillance,” Bussereau said on France’s i-tele television channel. “It’s a plane that disappeared from French soil following the discovery of numerous faults.”
.......EU rules require that any ban of planes be implemented across Europe, not just in an individual country. Bussereau didn’t spell out today whether the plane was banned only in France .
Well the accident aircraft in question, 7O-ADJ, has certainly been around Europe. It last came through London Heathrow on the Yemen Airways schedule IY743 on 24 June, one week before the accident. Did it overfly French airspace en route to/from Yemen ?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 11:53
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Black Box located

YEMEN, July 1 2009 - One of the black box flight recorders from the Yemeni plane which crashed in the Indian Ocean on Tuesday has been located, a French official has said.
Efforts to retrieve the recorder will begin during the day, the official added, quoted by AFP news agency. The plane came down in bad weather with 153 people on board. Only one survivor was found but rescue efforts continue. There were 66 French nationals on board the plane, which was flying from the Yemeni capital Sanaa to the Comoros. Most of the plane's passengers had flown on a different Yemenia aircraft from Paris or Marseille before boarding flight IY626 in Sanaa. "The black box's signal was located yesterday at 1630 local time (1230 GMT) by an aerial patrol, 40 km from Grande Comore," a spokeswoman for Co-operation Minister Alain Joyandet said. A French vessel has been sent to the site to start recovery operations,
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 12:07
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think that whether the aircraft had been 'banned' from France is an issue here. I would seriously doubt that this accident is due to mechanical or airframe malfunction. Spatial disorientation following a missed approach is probably nearer the mark particularly since, we've been told, the aircraft came down in the ocean miles away to the north of the island.
Sure the French found faults in the aircraft 2 years ago but there is nothing to indicate that Yemenia/Saudia maintenance did nothing about them. Faults found 2 years ago surely have no relevance here.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 12:35
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Hi,

I don't think that whether the aircraft had been 'banned' from France is an issue here. I would seriously doubt that this accident is due to mechanical or airframe malfunction. Spatial disorientation following a missed approach is probably nearer the mark particularly since, we've been told, the aircraft came down in the ocean miles away to the north of the island.
You certainly right .. as it's in Eurocockpit:

Google translation:

Published June 30 2009 at 06:51 by EuroCockpit.

An Airbus A310 of the company Yemenia Airways would have crashed that night off the Comoros in the Indian Ocean.

153 people (142 PAX and 11 PN) were supposed to be on board, perhaps including french nationals. The device connected to Sanaa Moroni, via Djibouti (vol IY626).

UPDATE: Unlike the case of flight AF447, EuroCockpit has no tangible technical comment on this accident.

The only analysis we can make concerns about the french government official, speaking through Mr. Bussereau, who said yesterday that he knew nothing, except that the aircraft was not in question.

EuroCockpit can therefore anticipate the conclusions of BEA, which point to a probable error of steering. Mr Feldzer we speak probably appalling weather ...
Source:
Eurocockpit - Accueil

Bye.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 13:50
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Finally

Re Xengue post

That is by far the most intillegent guesstimate I have seen. Missed approach, Copilot giving visual cues with Capt looking over his shoulder,maybe in CWS, Getting the s^&t beat out of them,very strong tailwind on downwind leg (hence the far distance from touchdown), darkness. Not a good scenerio. My guess is they stalled due to improper configuration while hand flown. I dont think anyone was navigating with instruments. We will know the truth soon enough if they are able to read the data from the recorders.
Nothing to do with which airline is banned from which country etc. etc. An accident is an accident and its importance is not based on whose citizens are on board or where they were allowed to fly.. Unfortunately, economics dictate safety and smaller less funded airlines are more prone to dubious mtx and operational practices, though I dont think that is the case in this accident. I have flown for African carriers which were more compliant then those that I flew for in the States. Generally it is usually the Civil Avaition of the member countries which are sanctioned.
My condolences go out to the families and loved ones affected by this tragedy.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 15:25
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Unhappy CBC Reports Survivor Heard Other Voices in Water

'Papa, we saw the plane going down in the water. I was in the water, I could hear people talking, but I couldn't see anyone. I was in the dark, I couldn't see a thing on top of that, Daddy. I can't swim well and I held on to something, but I don't really know what'
—Bahia Bakari in telephone conversation with her father
.
.
.
she held on to a piece of the plane from 1:30 a.m. Tuesday to 3 p.m.
.
.
.
Sgt. Said Abdilai told Europe 1 radio that Bahia was too weak to grasp the life ring rescuers threw to her, so he jumped into the sea to get her.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/07/01/survivor-yemeni-
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 16:01
  #113 (permalink)  
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Southernboy, BUSHJEPPY;
The problem with blacklists is that to get on one the airline has to be Dire. Nowadays audits produce little real inside information about company culture, which is arguably more important that how they do their paperwork
Like the SB and AD processes themselves, the "IOSA Audit" process accomodates politics and economics; whether that is a good thing or not depends upon one's priorities. From the point of view of some flight safety specialists, the IOSA process is somewhat questionable and, like SMS, is focussed on process and documentation and not "what actually is", at an airline. Much can be papered over and otherwise ticked off as done but still not be effective or excused, on the promise that it will be done at some point. Seen it.

Whether that is the case here remains to be examined, (if at all). With statements such as we have heard signaling official reasons "why the accident" by high-ranking corporate and/or political leaders, the chances of a full investigation diminish.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 16:12
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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According to the BBC, they have changed their mind about finding the data recorder. Looks like they found a distress beacon instead.

BBC NEWS | Africa | France reverses 'black box' claim
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 17:15
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Who will be the investigative government body responsible for handling the details? Will they publish a report?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 17:24
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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So .. Mr Bussereau know already before eveyone and before any investigation that's Airbus Industry is not involved ... the plane is perfect with no defaults .. know or unknow...
Well ............... that's a good start .
Rule no 1 about the French : They are never wrong.
Rule no 2 about the French : When they are wrong rule No 1 applies.

On a more serious note, if an aircraft belonging to a specific company is banned from the airspace of one EU country, isn't this ban applied EU wide?

Secondly, if one aircraft of a company is suspected to be so dangerous that it is banned, wouldn't it make sense to apply the ban to all aircraft of that company, given that the same standards of maintenance probably apply?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 17:38
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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PJ2
From the point of view of some flight safety specialists, the IOSA process is somewhat questionable and is focussed on process and documentation and not "what actually is", at an airline.
I fully agree, for me its just a another way to make money for the audit, and once this audit "passed", giving the management of those audited airlines an official certificate, a kind of a blank cheque, that they comply with IOSA at least acc the fing PAPERWORK, even some of them, I have my very, very big doubts if they really do comply in daily ops business.

Having the paperwork IOSA conformable ist completely different to having the actual business IOSA conformable. IOSA audits and the official IOSA seal is not worth anything.
Sorry, but just my 2pence.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 17:39
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Capetonian.....

and why would French Citizens be flying on a banned aircraft?

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Old 1st Jul 2009, 17:53
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Who knows

How would any citizen of any country know whether the aircraft was banned or not. If they could buy a ticket on the journey they wanted to make that would probably be their only requirement, they would assume that the governments and civil aviation authotities would have made all the necessary safety checks.

Woodsy
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 18:13
  #120 (permalink)  

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Unfortunately, economics dictate safety and smaller less funded airlines are more prone to dubious mtx and operational practices, though I dont think that is the case in this accident.
Yemenia is owned 49% by Saudi Arabia, who have money dripping out their ears. Mainteneance should have been to the highest calibre, not a cause for an aircraft to be banned from French airspace.
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