Yemeni airliner down?
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Thank you 20miles - I assume the red dot is the interpreted crash site? If so, it can hardly be a 'go-round'/'acceleration illusion' accident, D Dirk? It is no-where near the pattern or g/a.
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Dagger Dirk
Probably be moderated out yet again but a valid point is that spatial disorientation, the leans and somatogravic illusions are three entirely different phenomena.
The more common affliction during the nippy acceleration of light-weight go-rounds is the pitch-up illusion.
The more common affliction during the nippy acceleration of light-weight go-rounds is the pitch-up illusion.
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Latest from the BBC
Interesting reading.
Yemenia 'may cancel Airbus order'
The airline Yemenia has said it may reconsider an order for 10 Airbus A350s because it has received "no support" from the manufacturer.
Yemenia chairman Abdul Khaleq al-Qadi said Airbus had jumped to conclusions after the crash of a Yemenia plane off the Comoros Islands last week.
Without any proof, he said, Airbus had told the media the crash was the result of technical problems.
The Yemenia crash killed 153 people. One 12-year-old girl survived.
'Moral support'
Yemenia, which is owned by the governments of Yemen and Saudi Arabia, placed the $2bn order for 10 A350 Airbus planes at the Dubai air show in 2007.
Mr al-Qadi said he was disappointed by the reaction to the crash from both France and Airbus. Neither had shown any "moral support" for Yemenia.
The Yemenia passengers travelling to the Comoros Islands had left Paris for Marseille and Sanaa aboard a modern Airbus A330. But they switched to an older A310 - flight IY626 - to continue to Djibouti and Moroni, the capital of the Comoros.
Sixty-six French nationals were aboard the A310 when it crashed on its approach to Moroni.
EU blacklist
The Comoran community in France held protests in both Paris and Marseille, saying that the 19-year-old aircraft had not been fit for service.
And the French Transport Minister Dominique Bussereau on Friday said that Yemenia was "under strict surveillance", and would have to make "big efforts" to avoid being placed on an EU blacklist of airlines banned from entering Europe. Yemenia, however, says that bad weather - strong winds and high seas - was the more likely cause of the crash of flight IY626.
Still blaming the weather and everyone else apparently, I wonder if he realizes that he perhaps might have to take responsibility...obviously not.
Yemenia 'may cancel Airbus order'
The airline Yemenia has said it may reconsider an order for 10 Airbus A350s because it has received "no support" from the manufacturer.
Yemenia chairman Abdul Khaleq al-Qadi said Airbus had jumped to conclusions after the crash of a Yemenia plane off the Comoros Islands last week.
Without any proof, he said, Airbus had told the media the crash was the result of technical problems.
The Yemenia crash killed 153 people. One 12-year-old girl survived.
'Moral support'
Yemenia, which is owned by the governments of Yemen and Saudi Arabia, placed the $2bn order for 10 A350 Airbus planes at the Dubai air show in 2007.
Mr al-Qadi said he was disappointed by the reaction to the crash from both France and Airbus. Neither had shown any "moral support" for Yemenia.
The Yemenia passengers travelling to the Comoros Islands had left Paris for Marseille and Sanaa aboard a modern Airbus A330. But they switched to an older A310 - flight IY626 - to continue to Djibouti and Moroni, the capital of the Comoros.
Sixty-six French nationals were aboard the A310 when it crashed on its approach to Moroni.
EU blacklist
The Comoran community in France held protests in both Paris and Marseille, saying that the 19-year-old aircraft had not been fit for service.
And the French Transport Minister Dominique Bussereau on Friday said that Yemenia was "under strict surveillance", and would have to make "big efforts" to avoid being placed on an EU blacklist of airlines banned from entering Europe. Yemenia, however, says that bad weather - strong winds and high seas - was the more likely cause of the crash of flight IY626.
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The basic question I would ask should one fly the non-precision approach into the Comores at night time during bad weather conditions?
Most airlines decided not to fly there at night and certainly not during bad weather conditions. This is matter of basic risk assessment. It seems Yemenia has not made the same risk assessment as other airlines have.
A lot of media attention as focussed on technical issues (relation to EU SAFA checks) or crew error but the main reason of this accident is probably caused by the rather challenging approach in the conditions the crew faced.
Most airlines decided not to fly there at night and certainly not during bad weather conditions. This is matter of basic risk assessment. It seems Yemenia has not made the same risk assessment as other airlines have.
A lot of media attention as focussed on technical issues (relation to EU SAFA checks) or crew error but the main reason of this accident is probably caused by the rather challenging approach in the conditions the crew faced.
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Ludicrous, Nonsensical, Farcical etc
It's ludicrous, nonsensical, and farcical, that with modern technology we still have to fly ridiculous circling approaches. Especially to the most challenging airports in counties where UN aid is injected into the economy. Just pay the 10,000 US $ and have a RNAV approach designed where any GPS/IRS/FMS equipped aircraft can fly a straight approach to intercept a VDP/DA/DH as appropriate.
My 10 cents worth…
My 10 cents worth…
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Latest (from Associated Press) is that location of detected pings is in a 1000 foot diameter area. Sloping bottom depth in that area is 1600 to 4000 feet deep.
Bodies washing ashore in Tanzania 370 miles distant are said to possibly be from the wreckage. But that bodies washing ashore in Tanzania is not necessarily unusual.
An ROV and a deep diving grapple sub are enroute.
Bodies washing ashore in Tanzania 370 miles distant are said to possibly be from the wreckage. But that bodies washing ashore in Tanzania is not necessarily unusual.
An ROV and a deep diving grapple sub are enroute.
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High Seas?!
Yemenia, however, says that bad weather - strong winds and high seas - was the more likely cause of the crash of flight IY626.
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Why is a non precision approach hard to do in 2009? It was easy in 1999. Training and proficiency? Maybe the automatic airplanes need a pilot even though the computers seem to have the final authority.
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RNP requirements
Quote: Just pay the 10,000 US $ and have a RNAV approach designed where any GPS/IRS/FMS equipped aircraft can fly a straight approach to intercept a VDP/DA/DH as appropriate.
Don´t forget the A310 is quite an old A/C. For an appch like this you would for sure need RNP 0,15. To my knowledge also the B744 (also not the lates invention), at least in my company, all with GPS, can NOT do that... The best we can is RNP 0.30.
HURZ
Don´t forget the A310 is quite an old A/C. For an appch like this you would for sure need RNP 0,15. To my knowledge also the B744 (also not the lates invention), at least in my company, all with GPS, can NOT do that... The best we can is RNP 0.30.
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Why is a non precision approach hard to do in 2009? It was easy in 1999. Training and proficiency? Maybe the automatic airplanes need a pilot even though the computers seem to have the final authority.
These types of non-precision approaches only seem to be a problem for those that never learned how...
I do non precision approaches most weeks so they are certainly still done. But it is stating the blindingly obvious that the risks at this airport at night are higher and that with hindsight a daytime only restriction for the circling approach might have avoided this scheduling. However lets wait for some real facts.
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Before we get too exercised about 'difficult approaches' it is worth remembering that the a/c appears to have been no-where near the approach pattern when it crashed.
Based on where we think it crashed, neither the terrain nor the approach pattern appear to have had significant influence on this crash.
Based on where we think it crashed, neither the terrain nor the approach pattern appear to have had significant influence on this crash.
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The Flight Safety Foundation has done a lot of work on CFIT accidents. The risk of a CFIT in a non-precision approach is five times higher than in a precision approach.
It should not be a problem for properly trained flight crew to fly a non-precision approach into the Comores during day-time. The issue is however whether the risk of flying the non-precision approach into the Comores at night-time and in bad weather is not too risky even for well trained and qualified flight crew? This is something which is normally assessed as part of risk management within an airline's Safety Management System and this is also the reason why many airlines have decided not to fly to the Comores at night (and certainly not in bad weather conditions).
Off course the accident investigation will need to identify the reason for the Yemenia crash
It should not be a problem for properly trained flight crew to fly a non-precision approach into the Comores during day-time. The issue is however whether the risk of flying the non-precision approach into the Comores at night-time and in bad weather is not too risky even for well trained and qualified flight crew? This is something which is normally assessed as part of risk management within an airline's Safety Management System and this is also the reason why many airlines have decided not to fly to the Comores at night (and certainly not in bad weather conditions).
Off course the accident investigation will need to identify the reason for the Yemenia crash
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The previous Associated Press report of bodies washing ashore in Tanzania has been modified and expanded. The actual location is at Mafia Island, in Tanzania, and is now up to 10 bodies. There is a very strong likelihood that these bodies are from the Yemenia crash.
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The Flight Safety Foundation has done a lot of work on CFIT accidents. The risk of a CFIT in a non-precision approach is five times higher than in a precision approach.
It should not be a problem for properly trained flight crew to fly a non-precision approach into the Comores during day-time.
It should not be a problem for properly trained flight crew to fly a non-precision approach into the Comores during day-time.
It is a no problem or it is a five time more risky to fly a non precision approach?
Why we should debate about a properly trained crew? I do expect that all the crews are properly trained.
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Frequenty SLF
sorry to dissapoint you, but I have seen a lot of crap in training in the last 34 years of my flying career.
why should you expect someone is well trained when we have seen costs go down? wages down as pilots, loss of pensions...why not cut on training?
oh, and I don't see you complaining about the cost of a ticket...let's triple your ticket cost and do it right, ok?
sorry to dissapoint you, but I have seen a lot of crap in training in the last 34 years of my flying career.
why should you expect someone is well trained when we have seen costs go down? wages down as pilots, loss of pensions...why not cut on training?
oh, and I don't see you complaining about the cost of a ticket...let's triple your ticket cost and do it right, ok?
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It is probably 10 times riskier to do a minimums approach in heavy rain than a visual approach in good weather. Do we shut down operations until the weather imrpoves or stay on schedule and land? Non precision approaches have been the norm for decades for a lot of airports including San Diego landing west, the normal direction. It isn't any problem but it takes more attention to do it properly.