Pprune should go
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Moonbeam, greetings from Vegas! Not that I am about to gamble the future of PPRuNe down at the Bellagio but you seem to have failed to realise that the costs of administering the adverts is huge. There is a healthy income but I only see 35% of that after all the costs are taken into account and every penny of that goes back into running PPRuNe.
I have yet to find the idel partner that will run everything and pay for a really powerful server. The latest version is costing $750 a month and will probably become obsolete within 6 months. Don't forget the set-up fees every time an upgrade takes place. Add to all that the licence fees for the software and the other 101 incidentals and you would soon find that this is definitely a 'non-profit' organisation.
I am not complaining though. So far I have managed to make ends meet but if anyone is really interested then I would need around GBP100,000 as an initial investment to get PPRuNe ready for the next really big upgrade and then we can discuss revenue potential from advertising and merchandising.
Here is a little project for you... find out how much it would cost to upgrade our server to a really powerful quad processor machine with 1Gb RAM and a couple of fast SCSI drives in a RAID, ooohhh.... lets say 18Gb each and don't forget a quote for 200Gb bandwidth useage a month and then report back here with your best quote. Add to that the cost of employing someone only part time to administer your advertising sales and collection of payments and say... someone to design pages and code them in html and someone to write scripts at some ridiculous rate per hour and add to that the costs of support in other areas and on and on and on...
I await a respectable quote.
Seriously, I apreciate everything that is being discussed in this thread and I think I have a feel by now of what most people expect from PPRuNe but I still need feedback. Yes some of the content is pathetic from time to time but overall I think the balance is in favour of the 'mature majorities' favour. If I didn't get any enjoyment from what I read here then I think it would be time to hand the reins to soeone else who believes they can do a better job.
OK, that's enough from me. Must not waste time while the lights of 'The Strip' beckon.
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Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork
I have yet to find the idel partner that will run everything and pay for a really powerful server. The latest version is costing $750 a month and will probably become obsolete within 6 months. Don't forget the set-up fees every time an upgrade takes place. Add to all that the licence fees for the software and the other 101 incidentals and you would soon find that this is definitely a 'non-profit' organisation.
I am not complaining though. So far I have managed to make ends meet but if anyone is really interested then I would need around GBP100,000 as an initial investment to get PPRuNe ready for the next really big upgrade and then we can discuss revenue potential from advertising and merchandising.
Here is a little project for you... find out how much it would cost to upgrade our server to a really powerful quad processor machine with 1Gb RAM and a couple of fast SCSI drives in a RAID, ooohhh.... lets say 18Gb each and don't forget a quote for 200Gb bandwidth useage a month and then report back here with your best quote. Add to that the cost of employing someone only part time to administer your advertising sales and collection of payments and say... someone to design pages and code them in html and someone to write scripts at some ridiculous rate per hour and add to that the costs of support in other areas and on and on and on...
I await a respectable quote.
Seriously, I apreciate everything that is being discussed in this thread and I think I have a feel by now of what most people expect from PPRuNe but I still need feedback. Yes some of the content is pathetic from time to time but overall I think the balance is in favour of the 'mature majorities' favour. If I didn't get any enjoyment from what I read here then I think it would be time to hand the reins to soeone else who believes they can do a better job.
OK, that's enough from me. Must not waste time while the lights of 'The Strip' beckon.
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Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork
Guest
Posts: n/a
Upgrade, moonbeam and others.
If you need a SINGLE reason why PPRuNe should NOT go, you need go no further than the last post from the Capt.
NOT because of his entirely reasonable response in regard to the cost of its operation, but because you are indeed allowed the privilege of airing your views without retribution or banishment for life to the desolate wastes of cyber space.
As are those who wish to make complete dills of themselves.
I suspect it is the beauty of PPRuNes reasonable tolerance that has ensured its success and that you do not have to join the many wacko fora out there for your kicks.
For mine, I don't care if, and indeed hope Danny makes a motza out of it.
It wouldn't stop my enjoyment of it one bit, and if anything, make me feel a little less guilty about having something so good for free. It's a methodist thing.
[This message has been edited by gaunty (edited 07 April 2001).]
If you need a SINGLE reason why PPRuNe should NOT go, you need go no further than the last post from the Capt.
NOT because of his entirely reasonable response in regard to the cost of its operation, but because you are indeed allowed the privilege of airing your views without retribution or banishment for life to the desolate wastes of cyber space.
As are those who wish to make complete dills of themselves.
I suspect it is the beauty of PPRuNes reasonable tolerance that has ensured its success and that you do not have to join the many wacko fora out there for your kicks.
For mine, I don't care if, and indeed hope Danny makes a motza out of it.
It wouldn't stop my enjoyment of it one bit, and if anything, make me feel a little less guilty about having something so good for free. It's a methodist thing.
[This message has been edited by gaunty (edited 07 April 2001).]
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dd - do everyone a favor, stop brownnosing yourself!
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Danny, a couple of quick examples:
Dual PII processor, 512Mb Ram, 32Gb SCSI Drive, 150Gb Bandwith/Mth = 1800US$/Mth roughly 1250£/Mth
Should do the work easely.
Or the overkill:
Dual 1Gb PIII/256cache processors, 1Gb SDRAM DIMM, 2x36Gb SCSI Hardrives, RAID Controller PERC 3/QC 128Mb Price 6.700£, and then you need a quick connection! Don't know the excact price for the connection! It really boiles down to backbone cababillity and bandwith as you say.
The market is flooded with different server solutions and it should be quite easy to get a very good price if you challenge a couple of providers at the same time!
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With regards to the banners, it's a fact, at least where I live, that you get approx. 1£ per 600 banner exposures. Now let's say that you have 1 exposure for every hit, that is 10.000.000 exposures pr. month. That is something like 16.600£ pr. month
You don't have to think about employing anyone. The marketing companies I know are getting a small percentage of the income, for taking care of all the hard work selling the banners. With regards to programmers, why make everything so fancy. I recon that most of the guys, like the way everything is running at the moment! Correct me if I'm wrong!
And now onto something more interesting! For example flying!
MP
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Danny, a couple of quick examples:
Dual PII processor, 512Mb Ram, 32Gb SCSI Drive, 150Gb Bandwith/Mth = 1800US$/Mth roughly 1250£/Mth
Should do the work easely.
Or the overkill:
Dual 1Gb PIII/256cache processors, 1Gb SDRAM DIMM, 2x36Gb SCSI Hardrives, RAID Controller PERC 3/QC 128Mb Price 6.700£, and then you need a quick connection! Don't know the excact price for the connection! It really boiles down to backbone cababillity and bandwith as you say.
The market is flooded with different server solutions and it should be quite easy to get a very good price if you challenge a couple of providers at the same time!
---------
With regards to the banners, it's a fact, at least where I live, that you get approx. 1£ per 600 banner exposures. Now let's say that you have 1 exposure for every hit, that is 10.000.000 exposures pr. month. That is something like 16.600£ pr. month
You don't have to think about employing anyone. The marketing companies I know are getting a small percentage of the income, for taking care of all the hard work selling the banners. With regards to programmers, why make everything so fancy. I recon that most of the guys, like the way everything is running at the moment! Correct me if I'm wrong!
And now onto something more interesting! For example flying!
MP
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This is neither Rumours nor News. Time for The Towers to stick it in Jet Blast where it belongs. Its true that a lot of nonesense is posted on this BB but Tech Log alone justifies the site's existence. Lets just stop bitching and get back to aviation.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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GIGO! Folks. Life is not sweet. This site is a great place to exchange information. I work for a major, (Finaly!!!!!) but there are many items that are only addressed on this fine forum. We need a place to let of steam. If you can not take the heat, find another life.
Die AerWolf
Die AerWolf
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So come on then Danny why don't you insist upon personal details when people sign up for a user name?
Surely that would reduce the need for greater bandwidth, advertising etc. It wouldn't decimate the site, just get rid of the idiots and libelers.
I for one would gladly give my details so long as I could be assured of anonymity, except for the case when you are forced to give them by a legal body if I had libeled someone.
Surely that would reduce the need for greater bandwidth, advertising etc. It wouldn't decimate the site, just get rid of the idiots and libelers.
I for one would gladly give my details so long as I could be assured of anonymity, except for the case when you are forced to give them by a legal body if I had libeled someone.
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Despite this being my first post as this username. I have been contributing to PPRuNe for a few years. I somehow lost my previous identity.
In all that time there are frequent calls to restrict or censor PPRuNe by otherwise reasonable people, in fact most likely they are reasonable people. Often from Americans who can't understand the humour of and sarcasm of people on this side of the Atlantic and who's patriotic sensibilities are often offended by, to be honest sometimes over the top attacks by certain people against American policies and actions.
Interestingly when Clinton was in, Americans were attacking him, now that Bush is in Europeans are getting stuck in, justifiably in my opinion. Attacking Bush is not attacking America by the way. That man is an embarrassment.
What I say to these people is that censorship would be counterproductive and would even drive away many of the people the site wants to keep. I for one would object if it was restricted to pilots only or some other elitist group. I would qualify by the way so it's not sour grapes.
There is also the myth that if only pilots were allowed the whole site would become one sensible and professional discussion forum. That is simply not true, there is a common self perception among pilots, I was prey to it myself for a time, that we are somehow better that ordinary hoi polloi. There may be an element of truth in it. We are a self selecting group who tend to come from a particular social group and hold similar viewpoints and attitudes. But it is a mistake to believe we are better than others. We are as vulnerable to all the seven deadly sins as anyone and are often outspoken in a less than pleasant way.
so let's lose the naivety, restricting it to strictly vetted pilots would be counterproductive.
As this is a British based site it will tend to reflect the attitudes inherent in the Britain. I tend to find similar American sites a little too serious and I find excessive and uncritical patriotism grating.
But for people who don't like what they see here, don't go away. Get stuck in, defend your position and your country. That's the whole point, most of us live in free country, we are used to voicing our opinions.
Censorship and restriction has no place here, if you don't like it there's a very big country where they practice it in style. You can go there. I believe there are some Americans there right now discovering it at first hand.
In all that time there are frequent calls to restrict or censor PPRuNe by otherwise reasonable people, in fact most likely they are reasonable people. Often from Americans who can't understand the humour of and sarcasm of people on this side of the Atlantic and who's patriotic sensibilities are often offended by, to be honest sometimes over the top attacks by certain people against American policies and actions.
Interestingly when Clinton was in, Americans were attacking him, now that Bush is in Europeans are getting stuck in, justifiably in my opinion. Attacking Bush is not attacking America by the way. That man is an embarrassment.
What I say to these people is that censorship would be counterproductive and would even drive away many of the people the site wants to keep. I for one would object if it was restricted to pilots only or some other elitist group. I would qualify by the way so it's not sour grapes.
There is also the myth that if only pilots were allowed the whole site would become one sensible and professional discussion forum. That is simply not true, there is a common self perception among pilots, I was prey to it myself for a time, that we are somehow better that ordinary hoi polloi. There may be an element of truth in it. We are a self selecting group who tend to come from a particular social group and hold similar viewpoints and attitudes. But it is a mistake to believe we are better than others. We are as vulnerable to all the seven deadly sins as anyone and are often outspoken in a less than pleasant way.
so let's lose the naivety, restricting it to strictly vetted pilots would be counterproductive.
As this is a British based site it will tend to reflect the attitudes inherent in the Britain. I tend to find similar American sites a little too serious and I find excessive and uncritical patriotism grating.
But for people who don't like what they see here, don't go away. Get stuck in, defend your position and your country. That's the whole point, most of us live in free country, we are used to voicing our opinions.
Censorship and restriction has no place here, if you don't like it there's a very big country where they practice it in style. You can go there. I believe there are some Americans there right now discovering it at first hand.
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Let's start it off this way. After reading this thread all the way through, I wanted to reaffirm that PPRuNe is a very good forum for people interested in aviation, whether they be pilots, managers, or have any connection with the industry. As long as they are serious in what they are posting.
I was also going to say that at times there are some left field comments that puzzle me. The postings are clicking one after another and suddely something like this appears: "F*ck you all." Has this person just returned from the tavern with a few too many pints? It does not make any sense to me, and why is this person even posting on this forum? And why is he/she allowed to continue to post?
On a not so agressive side, just a few posts ago on this same thread a person said of Bush: "That man is an embarrassment." That's his opinion and that's fine, but if you want to share it with everyone else, please back it up in that case. I don't think that posts should be made emotionally, unless you qualify them as your pure emotions, and nothing else.
Don't accuse anyone of being an "embarrassment", whether it is Bush, Blair, Arafat, Sharon, or Putin, unless you can back it up. There are many of us that say that the world sucks. But when printing that, you should also include the word "why?"
But getting back to the idea whether PPRuNe should go or stay, I have taken a peek at other, so called, competing aviation sites and they have left me completely cold.
I see that there are many new members on PPRuNe who are actively posting their opinions and thoughts. There is nothing wrong with that, only encouragement, but the only suggestion that I have for them is to "cool it" in their first few posts. Test the field before you come out and condemn the whole society on Post No. 1.
I read this forum for a year, then consulted Danny, before I joined and started posting. I think my first post was a well thought out joke on JetBlast.
I was also going to say that at times there are some left field comments that puzzle me. The postings are clicking one after another and suddely something like this appears: "F*ck you all." Has this person just returned from the tavern with a few too many pints? It does not make any sense to me, and why is this person even posting on this forum? And why is he/she allowed to continue to post?
On a not so agressive side, just a few posts ago on this same thread a person said of Bush: "That man is an embarrassment." That's his opinion and that's fine, but if you want to share it with everyone else, please back it up in that case. I don't think that posts should be made emotionally, unless you qualify them as your pure emotions, and nothing else.
Don't accuse anyone of being an "embarrassment", whether it is Bush, Blair, Arafat, Sharon, or Putin, unless you can back it up. There are many of us that say that the world sucks. But when printing that, you should also include the word "why?"
But getting back to the idea whether PPRuNe should go or stay, I have taken a peek at other, so called, competing aviation sites and they have left me completely cold.
I see that there are many new members on PPRuNe who are actively posting their opinions and thoughts. There is nothing wrong with that, only encouragement, but the only suggestion that I have for them is to "cool it" in their first few posts. Test the field before you come out and condemn the whole society on Post No. 1.
I read this forum for a year, then consulted Danny, before I joined and started posting. I think my first post was a well thought out joke on JetBlast.
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Posts: n/a
Moonbeam, PII is just not powerful enough as a processor, need PIII's and current ones are only 450MHz ones which are already straining with two of them only a few days after going live! We have 512Mb RAM and that is also limiting at the moment. Two 9Gb SCSI in a RAID 1 and that is all I can afford at the moment. Your quote is excessive for the kit you are talking about but don't forget that it has to be hosted somewhere with an access to the internet backbone and remember, the bandwidth useage is the real killer.
As you mention in your reply... "Don't know the excact price for the connection! It really boiles down to backbone cababillity and bandwith as you say." That is where the real costs are. Anyone can build the hardware for a reasonable proce but what you are paying for is somewhere to house it with the backbone connection and the subsequent bandwidth costs. Believe me, I have approached many different providers and I am with one of the cheapest that can provide the back up.
As for the banners, I will happily give you 30% commission for every banner you can sell for GBP1 per 600 banner exposures. Hell, let's make it really easy, GBP1 per 800 exposures. Don't forget though that you have to actually 'sell' this advertising space, get the advertiser to give you the banner at the correct dimensions and file size and type, collect the money owed and cover all the associated expenses for your time and effort. Also, you need to ensure that there is a regular supply of these advertisers.
As an ex-salesman mayself I know how 'easy' it is to sell... NOT. Someones interest is one thing, converting it into actual hard cash is something totally different. As for the 10 million pageviews a month, not all of those pages carry a banner advert as they are not required for the admin functions pages for example. At the moment only just over 6 million pages a month carry actual banners on them. Other banners are only paid on a 'click through' basis and I can tell you that they only earn a fraction of what is required to pay for this website.
Please feel free to provide me with the contacts for the companies that you mention when you say... "The marketing companies I know are getting a small percentage of the income, for taking care of all the hard work selling the banners." I would be more than happy to discuss ways of improving the income without making myself liable to the lawyers that would almost certainly follow through with their threats if they thought that there was any financial gain for them because of this sites success.
Unfortuanely it is all a bit 'Catch 22'ish' and unless there is a large investment to provide a stable infrastructure I doubt that things will change too much except that we will continue to raise funds throught the current method of selling banner advert space. Don't forget also, that most pilots make terrible businessmen and I include myself in that category.
As for the other comments about making the site solely accessible to pilots... you are joking surely? You know the old one about "What do pilots use as a contraceptive?"... Their personalities!!! Can you imagine only qualified pilots, airline ones at that, being the sole users of these forums? Yawwwwn! Seriously though, I learnt very early on that this website would never succeed if it became too elitist. I also remeber the days when I was trying to gather information what was involved in the lob and the industry as a whole. It was not very easy getting information of any substance and besides... I can also learn a lot from other people who are not pilots but involved in the 'job'. In any airline the pilots are only a minority of all the jobs and ancilliary professions that it takes to make an airline.
What I try to do is keep it overall aimed at the 'professional' side of aviation. You will often notice that when someone who appears to be a 'spotter' asks a question then the question is moved to the 'Questions' forum where those of us who care to provide the answers can deal with it instead of clogging up the 'Rumours & News' forum for example. Another case is where private pilots start to post messages that are obviously not appropriate for this forum about light aircraft going missing or whatever. There are enough websites out there that deal with recreational flying. Overall there are enough forums to cope with just about any aspect of professional aviation and it is the input from all the different sources that keep this bulletin board as busy as it is.
Yes, there is an element who don't seem to be able to comprehend that their inane one liners or abuse is not welcome but overall if you ignore them and don't fall into the trap of responding then the moderators and my jobs are made that much easier.
Thanks for all the kind comments and suggestions and the criticisms too. Without them I am sure I would get very bored with it. Why else would I spend so much time on this when on a layover in Vegas? The fact that it has been very cold and rainy is only part of the excuse!
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Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork
As you mention in your reply... "Don't know the excact price for the connection! It really boiles down to backbone cababillity and bandwith as you say." That is where the real costs are. Anyone can build the hardware for a reasonable proce but what you are paying for is somewhere to house it with the backbone connection and the subsequent bandwidth costs. Believe me, I have approached many different providers and I am with one of the cheapest that can provide the back up.
As for the banners, I will happily give you 30% commission for every banner you can sell for GBP1 per 600 banner exposures. Hell, let's make it really easy, GBP1 per 800 exposures. Don't forget though that you have to actually 'sell' this advertising space, get the advertiser to give you the banner at the correct dimensions and file size and type, collect the money owed and cover all the associated expenses for your time and effort. Also, you need to ensure that there is a regular supply of these advertisers.
As an ex-salesman mayself I know how 'easy' it is to sell... NOT. Someones interest is one thing, converting it into actual hard cash is something totally different. As for the 10 million pageviews a month, not all of those pages carry a banner advert as they are not required for the admin functions pages for example. At the moment only just over 6 million pages a month carry actual banners on them. Other banners are only paid on a 'click through' basis and I can tell you that they only earn a fraction of what is required to pay for this website.
Please feel free to provide me with the contacts for the companies that you mention when you say... "The marketing companies I know are getting a small percentage of the income, for taking care of all the hard work selling the banners." I would be more than happy to discuss ways of improving the income without making myself liable to the lawyers that would almost certainly follow through with their threats if they thought that there was any financial gain for them because of this sites success.
Unfortuanely it is all a bit 'Catch 22'ish' and unless there is a large investment to provide a stable infrastructure I doubt that things will change too much except that we will continue to raise funds throught the current method of selling banner advert space. Don't forget also, that most pilots make terrible businessmen and I include myself in that category.
As for the other comments about making the site solely accessible to pilots... you are joking surely? You know the old one about "What do pilots use as a contraceptive?"... Their personalities!!! Can you imagine only qualified pilots, airline ones at that, being the sole users of these forums? Yawwwwn! Seriously though, I learnt very early on that this website would never succeed if it became too elitist. I also remeber the days when I was trying to gather information what was involved in the lob and the industry as a whole. It was not very easy getting information of any substance and besides... I can also learn a lot from other people who are not pilots but involved in the 'job'. In any airline the pilots are only a minority of all the jobs and ancilliary professions that it takes to make an airline.
What I try to do is keep it overall aimed at the 'professional' side of aviation. You will often notice that when someone who appears to be a 'spotter' asks a question then the question is moved to the 'Questions' forum where those of us who care to provide the answers can deal with it instead of clogging up the 'Rumours & News' forum for example. Another case is where private pilots start to post messages that are obviously not appropriate for this forum about light aircraft going missing or whatever. There are enough websites out there that deal with recreational flying. Overall there are enough forums to cope with just about any aspect of professional aviation and it is the input from all the different sources that keep this bulletin board as busy as it is.
Yes, there is an element who don't seem to be able to comprehend that their inane one liners or abuse is not welcome but overall if you ignore them and don't fall into the trap of responding then the moderators and my jobs are made that much easier.
Thanks for all the kind comments and suggestions and the criticisms too. Without them I am sure I would get very bored with it. Why else would I spend so much time on this when on a layover in Vegas? The fact that it has been very cold and rainy is only part of the excuse!
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Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork
Guest
Posts: n/a
I usually post in the engineers forum, but from my point of view, Pprune has been of great value to me. Reading your concerns give me an idea of what you guys are thinking. All the other forums don't hold a candle to this one. The fact that it accomodates us guys is a nice touch and would be sorely missed.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Unfortunately, at one time or another even eagles must associate with worms, Pprune is a great place for some to let off steam in an anonymous forum, others to unwind and laugh. 
Shutting down Pprune is simply a quick and temporary fix.
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Keep Safe
Shutting down Pprune is simply a quick and temporary fix.
------------------
Keep Safe
Guest
Posts: n/a
PPrune is great!! It gives us Wannabe's idea's, inspiration and answers. I have used PPRuNe as a tool to gain information. Some people talk nonsense, the vast majority do not.
In life, work, pubs etc, you inevitably come across someone who talks bollocks, and then you ignore them, and soon, so does everyone else. It's just the same here.
You wouldn't expect a financial magazine to stop being printed, because one of their writer's share predictions didn't work.
Non involved people are going to get a far worse impression of commercial aviation, from dramatic headline's in the Daily Mail, with 4 million'ish readers, than the few 10 thousand who come here.
ickle (Just my opinion)
It gives us Wannabe's idea's, inspiration and answers. I have used PPRuNe as a tool to gain information. Some people talk nonsense, the vast majority do not. In life, work, pubs etc, you inevitably come across someone who talks bollocks, and then you ignore them, and soon, so does everyone else. It's just the same here.
You wouldn't expect a financial magazine to stop being printed, because one of their writer's share predictions didn't work.
Non involved people are going to get a far worse impression of commercial aviation, from dramatic headline's in the Daily Mail, with 4 million'ish readers, than the few 10 thousand who come here.
ickle (Just my opinion)
Guest
Posts: n/a
This is the internet. We have to expect the rough with the smooth.
Pilots are not some kind of exalted breed. The profession contains all the prejudices as well as high standards that you might find in any other.
Most threads end up with more sense than rubbish being traded, however crudely they may start. It's a great site and it's about as well moderated as it could be, given that it respects free speech.
If it wasn't PPRuNe it would be another site, and probably not as well run.
Don't let 'em grind you down, Danny!
Pilots are not some kind of exalted breed. The profession contains all the prejudices as well as high standards that you might find in any other.
Most threads end up with more sense than rubbish being traded, however crudely they may start. It's a great site and it's about as well moderated as it could be, given that it respects free speech.
If it wasn't PPRuNe it would be another site, and probably not as well run.
Don't let 'em grind you down, Danny!
