Ryanair Captain dismissed for promoting unions
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Bronx - whether this captain was promoting unions through speech or literature is immaterial.There was no disciplinary procedure pursued.Does this mean that if in using your human right to free speech,if you mention the word "union" during your working day it is gross misconduct.Knowing the captain involved,i am 100% sure that any advice was given out of concern only.
When you look at this incident in the light of ryanair managements previous history of industrial relations,they are once again following a method they have used before.They will attempt to intimidate the pilot group through memos and then tell all that there will be huge reprecussions if union recognition is accepted.Then they will pick an "example pilot",fire him without due process and take the hit in court.this sends out a message to other pilots,"we will fire you if you pursue the union route".this is not the first time that it has happened.
would he have been fired for promoting a "ANTI-union" stance,if this stance was consrued to affect safety?Me Thinks NOT!!!
When you look at this incident in the light of ryanair managements previous history of industrial relations,they are once again following a method they have used before.They will attempt to intimidate the pilot group through memos and then tell all that there will be huge reprecussions if union recognition is accepted.Then they will pick an "example pilot",fire him without due process and take the hit in court.this sends out a message to other pilots,"we will fire you if you pursue the union route".this is not the first time that it has happened.
would he have been fired for promoting a "ANTI-union" stance,if this stance was consrued to affect safety?Me Thinks NOT!!!
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grim repa
I was responding to Vexed's point that the captain was always careful not to do anything that might get him fired. I'm not sure what someone does in company time is immaterial but it's clearly not immaterial to this company which apparently "cares very little for the welbeing of its employees."
Of course not. Are you now saying all the captain did was happen to use the word 'union' during his working day? 
I was responding to Vexed's point that the captain was always careful not to do anything that might get him fired. I'm not sure what someone does in company time is immaterial but it's clearly not immaterial to this company which apparently "cares very little for the welbeing of its employees."
Does this mean that if in using your human right to free speech,if you mention the word "union" during your working day it is gross misconduct.
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There was no disciplinary procedure pursued
This is going to be one big victory for the pilot concerned. You can't fire a permenant member of staff like that without suspending them pending an investigation first. I can smell victory already!
This is NOT the first pilot Ryan has fired. They got rid of an IALPA activist around 8 years ago by trumping up a charge that he refused to position on the flight deck on a full flight. THere are also several others
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What about the people who are anti-union and discuss/force their opinion on someone? Is that not exactly the same thing? I have had people bending my ear many times, I just ignore it.
All a little hypocritical, I would prefer to hear both sides and make my own mind up.
All a little hypocritical, I would prefer to hear both sides and make my own mind up.
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This is going to be one big victory for the pilot concerned
I wish him the best of luck.
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Dear, dear. As SLF, I have no dog in the fight......but why the hell should there be a fight anyway?
RYR staff appeared efficient, professional and hardworking,-at least, those facing the public did.
Huge sums are gambled on setting up bases,aircraft and infrastructure and staffing them.- Persons risking their cash, rightly demand a return on their investment.
All you malcontents should put your spare cash into Ryanair.
You will then have voting rights.
You will also become a greedy shareholder.
The more money the airline makes, the more you make.
The records of failed airlines seem to indicate that management who can actually make these undertakings prosper, are few and far between. Therefore, MOL is worth his pay, as his management, however controversial and distasteful, keeps the airline in business and allows it to expand and weather recessions like the present one.
Whilst many are disparaging about the lower strata of humanity that choose to fly RYR, you must remember that these punters are added business and profit.....or would you like to go back to the old days when only around 5% of the population could afford to fly on a passenger flight.
Price out the proles, get rid of all the surplus aircraft , crew and facilities and then you can (well, the remainder can,) be one of the elite in an elitist environment.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, we content ourselves with a Ford, but look enviously at the Rolls and Ferrari owners.
Too many people want to be an airline pilot,-face facts, there's an oversupply. That drives down terms and conditions and helps make mass travel affordable....Eventually a balance will be achieved,as with every other occupation......as has already been hinted, -if you're willing to shovel ****, tampons,condoms and other unpleasant, malodorous effluent for a living (and, yes, it does get to that, occasionally) the pay's great, the pension good, the shifts easy and home every night.
But you prefer to tell people you're a pilot /airline worker/whatever.
Sewage operative doesn't have the same ring, does it?
(actually they're "waste-water treatment operatives" )
Join a union , yes! but don't fight management for short-term greed.....you BOTH have the same objective.
Happy customers will return ,high utilisation will give a decent profit, fleet replacements will be affordable and staff will get a fair reward for their endeavours.
Like it or not, RYR is a cheap, no-frills ,mass transport carrier....up the prices to cover what staff think they deserve, and the market will vanish....then you're ALL out of a job.
USE A UNION TO NEGOTIATE BUT DON'T KILL THE GOLDEN GOOSE.
RYR staff appeared efficient, professional and hardworking,-at least, those facing the public did.
Huge sums are gambled on setting up bases,aircraft and infrastructure and staffing them.- Persons risking their cash, rightly demand a return on their investment.
All you malcontents should put your spare cash into Ryanair.
You will then have voting rights.
You will also become a greedy shareholder.
The more money the airline makes, the more you make.
The records of failed airlines seem to indicate that management who can actually make these undertakings prosper, are few and far between. Therefore, MOL is worth his pay, as his management, however controversial and distasteful, keeps the airline in business and allows it to expand and weather recessions like the present one.
Whilst many are disparaging about the lower strata of humanity that choose to fly RYR, you must remember that these punters are added business and profit.....or would you like to go back to the old days when only around 5% of the population could afford to fly on a passenger flight.
Price out the proles, get rid of all the surplus aircraft , crew and facilities and then you can (well, the remainder can,) be one of the elite in an elitist environment.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, we content ourselves with a Ford, but look enviously at the Rolls and Ferrari owners.
Too many people want to be an airline pilot,-face facts, there's an oversupply. That drives down terms and conditions and helps make mass travel affordable....Eventually a balance will be achieved,as with every other occupation......as has already been hinted, -if you're willing to shovel ****, tampons,condoms and other unpleasant, malodorous effluent for a living (and, yes, it does get to that, occasionally) the pay's great, the pension good, the shifts easy and home every night.
But you prefer to tell people you're a pilot /airline worker/whatever.
Sewage operative doesn't have the same ring, does it?
(actually they're "waste-water treatment operatives" )
Join a union , yes! but don't fight management for short-term greed.....you BOTH have the same objective.
Happy customers will return ,high utilisation will give a decent profit, fleet replacements will be affordable and staff will get a fair reward for their endeavours.
Like it or not, RYR is a cheap, no-frills ,mass transport carrier....up the prices to cover what staff think they deserve, and the market will vanish....then you're ALL out of a job.
USE A UNION TO NEGOTIATE BUT DON'T KILL THE GOLDEN GOOSE.
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cockney steve
Also as SLF but as a trade unionist, I agree with you. Nobody is looking to kill any goose, as far as I can see, merely to exercise their lawful right to have their union recognised. I don't see what is wrong with that.
HHowever, I do see something wrong with RYR acting in what seems to me to be an unlawful manner in sacking someone without going through due process, or so it would seem.
When this case goes through court, as I think it will, and pilot is awarded however much, plus costs, as I think he will going by the scant knowledge put before us, then that will come out of profits. Not a good way to run a business. A recognised union may have saved that pot of cash for them by negotiation.
As for putting cash into RYR, didn't MOL flog off some shares not long ago? Hardly the greatest of confidence.
HHowever, I do see something wrong with RYR acting in what seems to me to be an unlawful manner in sacking someone without going through due process, or so it would seem.
When this case goes through court, as I think it will, and pilot is awarded however much, plus costs, as I think he will going by the scant knowledge put before us, then that will come out of profits. Not a good way to run a business. A recognised union may have saved that pot of cash for them by negotiation.
As for putting cash into RYR, didn't MOL flog off some shares not long ago? Hardly the greatest of confidence.
Person Of Interest
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Doesn't anyone realize that the economy is in the toilet???
You can't get blood out of a turnip, especially if that turnip doesn't want to give it...
I don't know Ryanair or it's culture, but I do know the airline biz...
For every malcontent pilot out there, there are 5 or more "can-do" pilots dying to sit in that seat...
As a Typed Rated 737 Capt with significant hrs in type and seat....I'd be one of them...if I could get my medical back....
You can't get blood out of a turnip, especially if that turnip doesn't want to give it...
I don't know Ryanair or it's culture, but I do know the airline biz...
For every malcontent pilot out there, there are 5 or more "can-do" pilots dying to sit in that seat...
As a Typed Rated 737 Capt with significant hrs in type and seat....I'd be one of them...if I could get my medical back....
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cockney steve
I agree with a lot you say, but I'll still add my two cents worth.
Most pilots have zero understanding of management. They may have done CRM training, but beyond that they don't have a clue.
Faced with business people who manage the company day to day to keep it afloat, they're like lambs to the slaughter.
Guys & gals, you're good at your job but hopelessly outclassed as negotiators.
Most pilots have zero understanding of management. They may have done CRM training, but beyond that they don't have a clue.
Faced with business people who manage the company day to day to keep it afloat, they're like lambs to the slaughter.
Guys & gals, you're good at your job but hopelessly outclassed as negotiators.
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Guys & gals, you're good at your job but hopelessly outclassed as negotiators.
A trade union's power of persuasion comes from it's membership density, that power is channelled through the reps, who are guided by the PN.
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employ full time, professional negotiators (Principle Negotiator - PN),
Person Of Interest
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Vexed...Mar 3, 1989...94% of the EAL pilot group would NOT support the IAM Strike...Mar 4, 1989...different story...jets grounded, people out of work, commuter pilots (i.e. "Eastern Express" folks and their families)...local businesses (layover hotacs, bars, resturants, taxi cab drivers, etc), suffered MAJOR loss of business (read=revenue)...
I repeat...1989 was then...2009 is now...back then we thought "Frank" couldn't live without us...Now 20 years later, it seems to me that MOL can very clearly live without you...
Supply and demand old chap...
I repeat...1989 was then...2009 is now...back then we thought "Frank" couldn't live without us...Now 20 years later, it seems to me that MOL can very clearly live without you...
Supply and demand old chap...
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it seems to me that MOL can very clearly live without you...
Any ten indivduals, certainly yes.
Any hundred indivduals, yes, they could do it.
Any thousand? A bit tricky I'd say.
PP
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Supply and demand old chap...
MOL is in charge of the cake...you get a slice, as do suppliers,financiers,airport operators groundstaff etc.
If you want a bigger share of the crumbs, MOL will want to see a benefit
-to the business.....bolshie agressive dick-swinging on either side will promote the present situation.
Until Joe Public realises that Aviation is just a glamorous bus/train/coach/ferry
-type operation, he'll continue to spend vast sums with Training -organisations.
They will take the cash and sucker the next batch of wannabe's ....sell the dream, the illusion that the Pilot -life is frozen in the late 50's.
Your crocodile-tears will never be taken seriously until T & C's match the aspirations of the target workforce......a pilot-shortage will drive up T & C 's.....but there ain't a shortage and the situation will not change for a couple of years.-there's still a vast number of newbies, fresh out of flight -school to be absorbed yet,and that's before the trainers ramp-up their ops.
sorry, off-track again.
Given the apparent hostility between RYR management and crew, it seems a very foolish move to carry out the alleged activities in the alleged manner.......If enough people want change, they can join the Union.- once critical -mass is achieved, management has no alternative than to acknowledge them. Any management ignoring the wishes of the majority of it's workforce, is doomed. (look to the recent Formula 1 debacle, for inspiration.I have never ever belonged to a Union,but I acept they have their place. I think the RYR culture is a bit like that of "Animal Farm", in that there have been few, if any, checks and balances to the management's streamlining of costs and raising of revenues....
If you're unhappy, but don't want to pay Union -dues -Then find better employment elsewhere.....No jobs?.......welcome to the real world,-tailor your expectations accordingly.
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Seems that some posts from a number of contributors are being deleted.
Seems that BALPA members are all for free speech except when it does not agree with their current agenda.
Never let the truth get in the way of an agenda!!
Regards,
DFC
Seems that BALPA members are all for free speech except when it does not agree with their current agenda.
Never let the truth get in the way of an agenda!!
Regards,
DFC
