Ryanair Captain dismissed for promoting unions
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Hmmmm. Collect garbage or be responsible for a few hundred lives every day?
I'd go with the garbage one if I were you. Imagine all those leaflets you could have collected when that evil, dangerous, nasty man left them in pigeon holes the other day. Heaven.....
I'd go with the garbage one if I were you. Imagine all those leaflets you could have collected when that evil, dangerous, nasty man left them in pigeon holes the other day. Heaven.....
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Aldente, I am sure most of us appreciate no matter what roster pattern we are on, be it 5/4 or 5/2 we can only fly the same hours. The problem for a lot of us is getting home to see the family. If you are on 5/2 with lots of sby's, this may be OK if you live near by, but if you are a commuter, it means you would have to chose "the job or the family"
I am not prepared to give up 5/4, 2 months leave, £90,000 a year, and my family, just so you can have dignity and respect.
I am not prepared to give up 5/4, 2 months leave, £90,000 a year, and my family, just so you can have dignity and respect.
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Now listen you lot...
Rubbishing a company is OK, but rubbishing fellow professionals is rather bad form 
As to the status of pilots, and their importance in the pecking order, well someone quoted YYZ garbage workers
Well folks I wonder where y'all would be without the HONEY CART MAN
Answers on a single sheet of Izal please......O shinny side down
As to the status of pilots, and their importance in the pecking order, well someone quoted YYZ garbage workersWell folks I wonder where y'all would be without the HONEY CART MAN
Answers on a single sheet of Izal please......O shinny side down
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DFC says in post #144
“Besides being a very arogant attitude, people have lost sight of reality.”
I wonder if our so called “DFC” is deliberately misspelling “arrogant” as “arogant” just to provoke us.
No, maybe not ..........
“Besides being a very arogant attitude, people have lost sight of reality.”
I wonder if our so called “DFC” is deliberately misspelling “arrogant” as “arogant” just to provoke us.
No, maybe not ..........
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I can't understand you
I am posting from the sidelines, not being based in the UK. nevertheless, my view is this:
All you people against any form of union, saying things like: "it could'nt have come at a worst time", or "They could close UK bases, if pilots join a union", do you ever look outside your cockpit windows?
Acoording to management, times are ALWAYS at their worst, and "we" all have to "wind back a little, forego a pay rise etc...", so as the company can still make an "honest buck".
And, do any of you really believe that if you don't join a union, bases won't be closed? If it can be done cheaper elsewhere, it will be, union or no.
There is almost no detriment to being in a union, even if you only use it as place where you can get some pointers as to how you can deal with certain problems visited upon you.
Where I am, there is a pilots association. It is not really strong, but it does come in handy sometimes.
regards
Edit: lousy spelling
All you people against any form of union, saying things like: "it could'nt have come at a worst time", or "They could close UK bases, if pilots join a union", do you ever look outside your cockpit windows?
Acoording to management, times are ALWAYS at their worst, and "we" all have to "wind back a little, forego a pay rise etc...", so as the company can still make an "honest buck".
And, do any of you really believe that if you don't join a union, bases won't be closed? If it can be done cheaper elsewhere, it will be, union or no.
There is almost no detriment to being in a union, even if you only use it as place where you can get some pointers as to how you can deal with certain problems visited upon you.
Where I am, there is a pilots association. It is not really strong, but it does come in handy sometimes.
regards
Edit: lousy spelling
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The company has the upper hand, fact.
Companies always have the upper hand, fact.
Companies will continue to have the upper hand, fact.
Companies always have the upper hand, fact.
Companies will continue to have the upper hand, fact.
All the goodies we enjoy today have been given to us by the companies, because they are good and we are not. They are generous and forgiving, socially thinking and are always and generally speaking the basis for the good life we live nowadays.
Michael O`Leary is the culprit of 'goodmanship'. Do as he wants and EVERYBODY will have heaven on earth.
The current crisis has been brought upon us by the evil unions and their members, that are now gracefully allowed to pay for their evil sins (bailouts) via income tax. Or unemployment.
Our ancestors must feel sick about so many brown nosers. If you want work conditions like a hundred years ago, go buy a time machine but leave me alone. If not, unions are the way to go. United we make an impact, diveded they laugh at us.
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Ballsout....Remember not just 4 months ago some of us had the CHOICE between a substantial pay cut or a pay freeze and a fiddle around with the annual leave! Don't forget the freezing of UK base transfers, the Pulling of people from command upgrade courses and our hardworking SFIs being told no with their prerequisite 3000 hrs. Don't forget the proposed £4000 upgrade fee or £500 knocked off your salary to keep your UK license. Dont get me wrong my current rosta at Ryanair is the best Ive EVER had in the industry and I generally enjoy working here HOWEVER to quote one of my colleagues recently "whats the point of being continuously threatened with a big stick if youre going to be beaten with it anyway?" Dont forget the list of proposed changes to our T&Cs still in the pipeline!! Dont forget the sector pay review by HMRC!! I hope that eating our food during the cruise as per part `A` isn't going to found to be found contravening flight safety soon or were all going to go a little hungry on our 12hr days aren't we? Dont mind doing my bit for the company but I'm sure without doubt if other crew outside RYR were to witness our crewdock or the contents of my pigeon hole it would take them two weeks to stop laughing! Anyway future is promising cant wait to witness the wide array of teddies and dummies on the bedroom floor!!
"Employee Relations"
I've read this thread carefully as I know a little about "Employee Relations".
I have to say that no-one who works outside MOL's version of Disneyworld can comment on what is going on. Nothing that MOL's managers do compares with how the rest of us conduct and regulate our relationships.
It would appear to me that you either like working in their world or you don't. If you do, fine, if you don't, get the hours in and keep your cv up to date.
Aviation will pick up, and job opportunities in Aviation will come back. It'll take a year or so.
I have to say that no-one who works outside MOL's version of Disneyworld can comment on what is going on. Nothing that MOL's managers do compares with how the rest of us conduct and regulate our relationships.
It would appear to me that you either like working in their world or you don't. If you do, fine, if you don't, get the hours in and keep your cv up to date.
Aviation will pick up, and job opportunities in Aviation will come back. It'll take a year or so.
Last edited by Ancient Observer; 23rd Jun 2009 at 11:28. Reason: typo
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If I were a hospital director and wanted to confront my top surgeons over pay, conditions or unionisation, I'd think at least twice.
MOL only needs to read pilots' postings on PPrune to know that a more divided bunch of professionals would be hard to find. He has nothing to fear.
MOL only needs to read pilots' postings on PPrune to know that a more divided bunch of professionals would be hard to find. He has nothing to fear.
Last edited by Dysag; 24th Jun 2009 at 19:59.
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Ballsout, this is the eternal question - when is a good time to stand up or to gain respect? The answer is: this has nothing to do with "when is a good time?". Sick fed up of hearing this excuse. There will never be a good time if you listen to management ! That is the only truth. And don't worry for finding an excuse for the next time around, the company will provide that for you, free of charge.
The terms and condition, if left to management, are only going to go down (look at the sector pay, the ever reducing basic pay new captains start on, total disrespect towards our leave system changing every year). This is where we need to get organised, helped by BALPA. Is it going to be simple? No. Is it going to be painless? No. But: Will it put us back on track to be respected and paid like the rest of the industry? OH YES!! If you're looking for an easy fix, that magic bullet, there ain't any. Simple. Do I wish it was easier? Yes. Tough. Management has created this situation, nobody else. Time to find our courage (BALLS) and sign the union in.
And BTW, Respect will make you feel seriously better towards your work, and that is priceless. Forgetting the way we are treated, putting that on the side, that will one day hit you back like a ton of bricks... and it will be too late. And let us not forget that our pilot stood up for what he thought was right, I pay full respect to him! What is democracy worth? No need to answer, just try dictatorship..
Again, it won't be easy but all we need to do is to confidentially tell a Committee we want to be represented, there is no need to even tell any manager your opinion or publicly defend the cause if you do not wish to do so. Just one little vote! No need to be BALPA member (although admittely it would help the cause).
The terms and condition, if left to management, are only going to go down (look at the sector pay, the ever reducing basic pay new captains start on, total disrespect towards our leave system changing every year). This is where we need to get organised, helped by BALPA. Is it going to be simple? No. Is it going to be painless? No. But: Will it put us back on track to be respected and paid like the rest of the industry? OH YES!! If you're looking for an easy fix, that magic bullet, there ain't any. Simple. Do I wish it was easier? Yes. Tough. Management has created this situation, nobody else. Time to find our courage (BALLS) and sign the union in.
And BTW, Respect will make you feel seriously better towards your work, and that is priceless. Forgetting the way we are treated, putting that on the side, that will one day hit you back like a ton of bricks... and it will be too late. And let us not forget that our pilot stood up for what he thought was right, I pay full respect to him! What is democracy worth? No need to answer, just try dictatorship..
Again, it won't be easy but all we need to do is to confidentially tell a Committee we want to be represented, there is no need to even tell any manager your opinion or publicly defend the cause if you do not wish to do so. Just one little vote! No need to be BALPA member (although admittely it would help the cause).
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This is indeed a very serious matter.
RYR staff, and that is ALL staff, not just pilots, are constantly under supervision.
If any member of this company dares to talk about union, and these discussions end up in the wrong ears, we all know how it all ends up....., forget the work shifts, forget the pay etc, this reason alone is more than enough for the whole staff of this company to make a stand, and i meen 100% of the staff.
Apparantly RYR workers are to certain person like oranges, oranges that will be squeezed until no juice is left in them. Kind of reminds me of the black people collecting cotton in the USA (no offence please, it is a constructive comparison).
Why are some people so concerned about uniting? It is neccessary to unite, manageres need to be "educated", they need to be taught that we are human beings and that if we disagree with them, they have to listen to our thoughts, this enhances safety because it makes our workplace a happier one, it makes us want to have our company rocketing ski high...
Essentialy, what im trying to express is that im very concerned when i read peoples excuses about why uiniting is not "wsie".
Lets be realistic, is every body happy at RYR? Would someone change certain "things" ata RYR?
Getting together an showing the company that the workers are united benefits both, because form then on, company and workers can sit at the same table and NEGOTIATE. Here nothing is negotiated, what i say is law, if you dont like it the FU, theres the door.
So for those that defend that a union is not needed, please, think it over, you are not being truthful with yourself, and let me add something, the more powerful this company becomes, the less powerful the workers, until eventually we will feel our head between the tarmac and somebodies opresing boot. This may sound like some crazy propaganda, but, think it over, maybe its not such a foolish thought.
For those who think unions are only designed to milk the company and benefit the workers, let me tell you, i used to think the same, but now i know for sure that i was completely mistaken. We are vulnerable and fragile against RYR managing staff.
I dont want anything in particular, just to have a proper defense against abuse.
I think we all do, but some of us are affraid, and disguise this with excuses as to why uniting is not a good idea. In order to be free, we MUST all be together, ALL on the same boat.
Last of all, just incase anybody feels like calling me a terrorist, maybe you are on the wrong forum, this is a pilots forum were we try to make each one and others life better.
Remember, this is not about milking the company, because it feeds many of us, its about having the chance to be heard and respected and treated as deserved not as desired.
Sorry for writting such a long thread, and about any possible spelling/gramatical mistakes. This is not my mother language.
RYR staff, and that is ALL staff, not just pilots, are constantly under supervision.
If any member of this company dares to talk about union, and these discussions end up in the wrong ears, we all know how it all ends up....., forget the work shifts, forget the pay etc, this reason alone is more than enough for the whole staff of this company to make a stand, and i meen 100% of the staff.
Apparantly RYR workers are to certain person like oranges, oranges that will be squeezed until no juice is left in them. Kind of reminds me of the black people collecting cotton in the USA (no offence please, it is a constructive comparison).
Why are some people so concerned about uniting? It is neccessary to unite, manageres need to be "educated", they need to be taught that we are human beings and that if we disagree with them, they have to listen to our thoughts, this enhances safety because it makes our workplace a happier one, it makes us want to have our company rocketing ski high...
Essentialy, what im trying to express is that im very concerned when i read peoples excuses about why uiniting is not "wsie".
Lets be realistic, is every body happy at RYR? Would someone change certain "things" ata RYR?
Getting together an showing the company that the workers are united benefits both, because form then on, company and workers can sit at the same table and NEGOTIATE. Here nothing is negotiated, what i say is law, if you dont like it the FU, theres the door.
So for those that defend that a union is not needed, please, think it over, you are not being truthful with yourself, and let me add something, the more powerful this company becomes, the less powerful the workers, until eventually we will feel our head between the tarmac and somebodies opresing boot. This may sound like some crazy propaganda, but, think it over, maybe its not such a foolish thought.
For those who think unions are only designed to milk the company and benefit the workers, let me tell you, i used to think the same, but now i know for sure that i was completely mistaken. We are vulnerable and fragile against RYR managing staff.
I dont want anything in particular, just to have a proper defense against abuse.
I think we all do, but some of us are affraid, and disguise this with excuses as to why uniting is not a good idea. In order to be free, we MUST all be together, ALL on the same boat.
Last of all, just incase anybody feels like calling me a terrorist, maybe you are on the wrong forum, this is a pilots forum were we try to make each one and others life better.
Remember, this is not about milking the company, because it feeds many of us, its about having the chance to be heard and respected and treated as deserved not as desired.
Sorry for writting such a long thread, and about any possible spelling/gramatical mistakes. This is not my mother language.
Originally Posted by DFC
Some people think that just because they are a pilot that they are somehow superior to the garbage collector - regardless of age, experience and qualifications.
Now back to the thread: if we have some insiders here, I'd like to know a) how did the RYR MGT find out about "subversive" activity during the flight b) in what airspace did the "un-company" behaviour occur?
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United! How many united pilots are out of work just now? How many united pilots are facing redundancy just now? How many united pilots are being asked to work a month for nothing just now? This is not the time for staff to take management on, especialy not Ryanair management. If anyone with an ounce of sence wants to have this fight, they will chose to do it when other companies are on the up.
For those that loose their jobs through this, what companies are recruiting just now? What companies are recruiting direct entry Captains just now? Where do they expect to get the money to pay the bills?
United, Dignity and Respect don't pay the bills. Get real, if you must pick a fight, pick it where and when you have a chance of winning!
For those that loose their jobs through this, what companies are recruiting just now? What companies are recruiting direct entry Captains just now? Where do they expect to get the money to pay the bills?
United, Dignity and Respect don't pay the bills. Get real, if you must pick a fight, pick it where and when you have a chance of winning!
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MoL is a gob****e, I agree with you folks, but can you not get bloody organised ? This has been going on for sooo long, I doubt it will ever be resolved, you lot just cannot get unified/agree on a method of progres.
No I'm not with the company, just happen to know it from TR's start.
I'll say no more I now I feel like saying stuff I shouldn't
No I'm not with the company, just happen to know it from TR's start.
I'll say no more I now I feel like saying stuff I shouldn't
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BALLSOUT, I understand your concern and it is clear that talking about unity makes you feel frightend, mainly due to the fact that you believe this may cause you to loose your job. However, if everybody was together in this fight (as you stated) then there would be no space for abusive managers.
Another uncomfortable truth is that, if a serious union was to be created within RYR, people like yourself would benefit from a battle that you chose to escape from, mainly due to unrealistic worries, and this is not fare. By unrealistic worries i mean that you would not be sacked if everybody was together in this.
Would you resign to a better situation in your company if these benefits were now yours thanks to all those who made a stand against the companies abusive ways? The answer is no, no you woud'nt. Therefore, insted of being so negative and talking about: United, Dignity and Respect dont pay the bills. get real etc etc. Its time for everybody to face the facts and make a decision, do we surender or do we simply demand our rights via a negotiating team, ie, Union...?
I agree with you in that many united pilots are asked to fly free, buts thats not our case is it? This company continues to grow and is very strong. So that excuse, im affraid, is just that, an excuse.
You wrote "If anyone with an ounce of sence wants to have this fight, they will chose to do it when other companies are on the up." To this i answer, if anyone has an ounce of sence, this fight will be taken on roight know, before this massive company turns into an empire, then it will be too late, and clever sentences like that will make us all very happy...... or miserable.
Stop looking for excuses, this is not about outwitting others in this forum, its about making a move before its too late.
Another uncomfortable truth is that, if a serious union was to be created within RYR, people like yourself would benefit from a battle that you chose to escape from, mainly due to unrealistic worries, and this is not fare. By unrealistic worries i mean that you would not be sacked if everybody was together in this.
Would you resign to a better situation in your company if these benefits were now yours thanks to all those who made a stand against the companies abusive ways? The answer is no, no you woud'nt. Therefore, insted of being so negative and talking about: United, Dignity and Respect dont pay the bills. get real etc etc. Its time for everybody to face the facts and make a decision, do we surender or do we simply demand our rights via a negotiating team, ie, Union...?
I agree with you in that many united pilots are asked to fly free, buts thats not our case is it? This company continues to grow and is very strong. So that excuse, im affraid, is just that, an excuse.
You wrote "If anyone with an ounce of sence wants to have this fight, they will chose to do it when other companies are on the up." To this i answer, if anyone has an ounce of sence, this fight will be taken on roight know, before this massive company turns into an empire, then it will be too late, and clever sentences like that will make us all very happy...... or miserable.
Stop looking for excuses, this is not about outwitting others in this forum, its about making a move before its too late.
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Clandestino,
Good point.
Perhaps the whole world should "unite" and then everyone can be paid the same as a Toronto garbage collector.
However, the point I made earlier was simply if you are in it for the money then it makes sense to do the job that pays most.
If you are in it for the "status" then you were born 50 years late.
If you are in it for the flying - hey you are flying and (for the most part) you don't have to pay for it.
---------
Ballsout,
Very good point also. If you are facing having nothing more than Dignity and Respect to pay the bills, any Union representing you will not pick a fight that it does not think it can win or that will cause greather losses elsewhere.
---------
PBD 1,
You say that you loose 500 because you insist on keeping your UK licence. Since country of licence issue makes no difference under JAR-FCL, why do you insist on having "UK CAA" on your licence and not "IAA". I can't see any reason.
Regards,
DFC
Good point.
Perhaps the whole world should "unite" and then everyone can be paid the same as a Toronto garbage collector.
However, the point I made earlier was simply if you are in it for the money then it makes sense to do the job that pays most.
If you are in it for the "status" then you were born 50 years late.
If you are in it for the flying - hey you are flying and (for the most part) you don't have to pay for it.
---------
Ballsout,
United, Dignity and Respect don't pay the bills. Get real, if you must pick a fight, pick it where and when you have a chance of winning!
---------
PBD 1,
You say that you loose 500 because you insist on keeping your UK licence. Since country of licence issue makes no difference under JAR-FCL, why do you insist on having "UK CAA" on your licence and not "IAA". I can't see any reason.
Regards,
DFC
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Vexed says
Ain't that the truth. 
I've been waiting to see if any poster says the captain was FALSELY accused of encouraging Cabin Crew to join the T&G union and distributing membership forms in the company's time and on the flight deck and nobody has so far.
If it's true, surely he must have realized he was taking a big risk doing that on the flight deck and in the company's time?
If anyone's likely to know, it's The Grim Repa whose made 500 posts every one attacking Ryanair management. The Grim Repa posted the company's letter and added "any letter from ryanair management can contain elements of complete untruth" but he doesn't claim the captain was not doing the above.
I could understand handing out BALPA forms to pilots, but what was he doing handing out union forms to Cabin Crew?
Some here say the F/A who reported him was a Judas and a rat. Nobody likes folk who run off getting other people into trouble with management but to be fair we don't know what form the captain's "encouraging" took. Maybe the captain was abusing his position by putting pressure on staff lower down the food chain?
Maybe he wasn;t but I'm wondering because some of the pro union posters on this thread who spout off about freedom dignity respect etc dont show any respect to colleagues who don't agree with them and are very offensive about them. Claiming to believe in dignity and respect and freedom of thought is hypocritical if it only applies to people who think the same way as you.
With all due respect to all posters, this thread has gone waaaaaay off topic. It was originally about the Cpt who got fired in Ryr.
He deliberately was a model pilot, ironically because he felt it protected him from being sacked
If it's true, surely he must have realized he was taking a big risk doing that on the flight deck and in the company's time?
If anyone's likely to know, it's The Grim Repa whose made 500 posts every one attacking Ryanair management. The Grim Repa posted the company's letter and added "any letter from ryanair management can contain elements of complete untruth" but he doesn't claim the captain was not doing the above.
I could understand handing out BALPA forms to pilots, but what was he doing handing out union forms to Cabin Crew?
Some here say the F/A who reported him was a Judas and a rat. Nobody likes folk who run off getting other people into trouble with management but to be fair we don't know what form the captain's "encouraging" took. Maybe the captain was abusing his position by putting pressure on staff lower down the food chain?
Maybe he wasn;t but I'm wondering because some of the pro union posters on this thread who spout off about freedom dignity respect etc dont show any respect to colleagues who don't agree with them and are very offensive about them. Claiming to believe in dignity and respect and freedom of thought is hypocritical if it only applies to people who think the same way as you.
Last edited by Bronx; 24th Jun 2009 at 07:04.
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You say that you loose 500 because you insist on keeping your UK licence. Since country of licence issue makes no difference under JAR-FCL, why do you insist on having "UK CAA" on your licence and not "IAA". I can't see any reason.
Regards,
DFC
Regards,
DFC
It's not a TV licence and there's no refund for any unused portions I'm afraid !
Maybe now you can see a "reason" ......
