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Ryanair Captain dismissed for promoting unions

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Ryanair Captain dismissed for promoting unions

Old 22nd Jun 2009, 04:17
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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deja vu all over again
Spot on, 20driver...and in addition, a few troublemakers at an airline whip up the guys into frenzy at just the wrong time...when business is down, and thereby just invite retaliation by the company.

It never fails.
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 04:47
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Reality check.

MOL opens a base in Wroclaw. No BALPA,cheaper handling,lower staff costs...bye bye Bournemouth...1 UK base closed.

MOL opens a base in Malaga. No BALPA,lower staff costs, lower cost of living, mass applications to work there.....adios Edinburgh. 2nd UK base closes.

MOL opens a base in .....you choose.

Don't get it do you?

Ryanair is big enough to absorb the cost of base closures in the UK and openings in Europe and to move the operation from the UK without even breaking in to a sweat. It isn't simply the jobs of pilots, engineers and cabin crew you are toying with, it is the subsidiary employment the airline creates at the 10 UK and 4 Irish bases.

If the tub thumpers are such enthusiastic supporters of unionisation and socialism, consider the wider effects of the action on members of other unions in the UK and Ireland if your campaign proves successful.
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 06:12
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Don't get it do you?
Nope, they never will, no matter how long they try.
I actually feel sorry for these misguided folks.

On second thought...NO.
They are fools.
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 06:26
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Any time that you have labor/management arguments you will always have management taking hostages. The real trick is to make your point without putting yourself into the position of potential hostage. It sounds like this Captain, who might be the best guy ever, just put himself in the position to be kidnapped by the Taliban.

Unions result from bad management. Ryanair are in desperate need of a union.
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 06:26
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I think some people are confusing aviation with business. MOL runs a business. His bottom line is, err, the bottom line. If he can realise efficiencies for his shareholders he will.

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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 06:32
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Another reality check

"Ryanair is big enough to absorb the cost of base closures in the UK and openings in Europe and to move the operation from the UK without even breaking in to a sweat."...but they do not want to nor do they have to. This is called commerce. The role of the company is to maximise returns to members and the role of management is to manage the business, not to listen to every whining ego who thinks they are an expert in every facet of running a business although they have none of the information required to make decisions and even less expertise. What do the Americans say - armchair quarterbacks?
Over time, terms of employment generally change to meet the market conditions then prevailing. At the moment, market conditions have changed so that airlines have to review those employment conditions that can produce cost savings, review staffing levels and any other relevant cost reduction. Anyone who wants to keep their conditions at the same level as when large profits where being made are too stupid to retain. Ever wonder why there are mass redundancies and people wonder whinge about the process? Because it's usually to clean out the idiots first.

In an airline market currently being experienced with falling passenger numbers and large financial losses, keeping the same operational methods is plain dumb. The fact that so many things are happening to agitate people merely means that management are managing - like they are supposed to.

What are the average working days per annum compared to the general working population? What are the annual leave entitlements compared to the general population? Perhaps the industry needs to wind some of these back.

"...and thereby just invite retaliation by the company." Absolutely. The company is more interested in its own survival than the rantings of an idiotic malcontent.

"Pilots are not some mythical Skygods, they are an expense to be minimized, like everything else in a consumer driven company that wants to make a profit and expand." More truth. Pilots are no different to any other commodity need to make the business operate. Decisions will be made about the quality/experience/training/wages/conditions etc that makes up total cost. All depends on the business model.

"Respect is needed between the pilots and management." and "Just getting fed up with the propaganda and constant bull****ting.Tedious." An oxymoron, stupid.

"The company has the upper hand, fact.
Companies always have the upper hand, fact.
Companies will continue to have the upper hand, fact."
More reality.

It it's all so bad, leave. Or shut up. Who, honestly, would go on strike at the moment? Anyone who says yes is either a liar or too monumentally stupid to be in charge of an icecream, yet alone an aircraft. Try working constructively with the company to minimise the impact of any downturn rather than be a party to it's destruction.

"If the infraction was done during flight, I hope the rat bastard who did Judas act against the captain..." What the?? Do we have a close relative of Stalin writing here? Gross misconduct is gross misconduct and it is up to the individual to take action against the company if they believe it is not a valid termination. Is it a Judas act if the captain had been drinking?? Look up 'duty of fidelity' - all employees should understand what this is.

Ryanair do what they do because they can and because it works. That is reality. Don't like it? Too bad - they ain't going to change!
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 07:08
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Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy
It it's all so bad, leave. Or shut up. Who, honestly, would go on strike at the moment? Anyone who says yes is either a liar or too monumentally stupid to be in charge of an icecream, yet alone an aircraft. Try working constructively with the company to minimise the impact of any downturn rather than be a party to it's destruction.

...

Ryanair do what they do because they can and because it works. That is reality. Don't like it? Too bad - they ain't going to change!
TheOtherGuy,

As anyone can see from your previous posts, you are a manager (with a serious dislike for "idiot" "stupid" pilots).

A professional organisation is important for many roles where the individual has responsibility that may require a little support from time to time. In the UK it's a shame that this organisation comes under the term "union", but in many other professions it is considered vital.

I note with interest your massive contradiction quoted above. Nice management double-speak!

For the casual reader, here is TheOtherGuys management style when it comes to redundancies:

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy
This is breathtaking in its ignorance however typical of a performance bottom dweller who uses seniority as a protection against performance management. It's lucky that spelling is not a pilot license requirement. Are you seriously wanting this forum to believe that there is a direct linear correlation between experience and merit and that there is not one pilot with less experience who is better than one with more experience? Idiot.
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 08:01
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What are the average working days per annum compared to the general working population? What are the annual leave entitlements compared to the general population? Perhaps the industry needs to wind some of these back.
Niaive methinks. What has number of days got to do with anything? Consider the number of hours pilots work, and the changing roster pattern from extremely early in the morning to middle of the night (not specifically Ryanair here). Your average nine to fiver doesn't have this to deal with, their body clock never gets out of synch, most get every weekend off and all bank holidays. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy
This is breathtaking in its ignorance however typical of a performance bottom dweller who uses seniority as a protection against performance management. It's lucky that spelling is not a pilot license requirement. Are you seriously wanting this forum to believe that there is a direct linear correlation between experience and merit and that there is not one pilot with less experience who is better than one with more experience? Idiot.
And you don't understand seniority. It has nothing to do with those above being better.

PP
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 08:29
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And still no reply from Leo Hairy Camel! The sacking must have hit a nerve!
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 08:40
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Quote from The Real Slim Shady
Reality check.

MOL opens a base in Wroclaw. No BALPA,cheaper handling,lower staff costs...bye bye Bournemouth...1 UK base closed.
Slim,

A quick look at the RYR website shows that from Bournemouth (a relatively affluent retirement area) they fly to destinations such as Carcassone, Limoges, Palma Majorca and Faro, alll favourite destinations for the "grey pound".

I can't see the attraction of "Dordogneshire" (as MOL once called it) and its culinary and cultural delights being much of a pull for your average Polish waitress or plumber somehow, do you ?

What would Ryanair do in such a scenario ? Announce to the people of Edinburgh or Bournemouth, "sorry you cant fly with Ryanair from your local airport anymore, because we're having a spat with the pilots, so we're gonna close the base down !" (presumambly leaving a vacuum for someone else to fill).

The reason Ryanair has a base at Bournemouth and Edinburgh, is because they're making MONEY

MOL is just p1ssing in the wind !!!!
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 09:42
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And still no reply from Leo Hairy Camel! The sacking must have hit a nerve!
If the case is in litigation then he would not be able to comment on it.

Like him or loathe him, M.O.L.'s priority is the business and it's continuing viability and profitability.

Moreover, there have been a couple of questions towards BALPA asking what it is exactly it will do for it's members. So far, the silence there has been deafening.
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 10:42
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20driver wrote:

I have no dog in the fight but the dumping on Ryanair pilots sound a lot like the way the ALPA airline pilots used to dump all over Southwest pilots.
It was only 10 years ago when the American pilot rag was full of very similar posts describing Southwest pilots as spine less scabs etc etc.
( Totally ignoring Southwest pilots were unionized)
Meanwhile Southwest stuck to making money, something no a single ALPA Airline managed to do in the last decade, and strangely enough their pilots are now the best paid 737 jocks in the patch and they continue to grow.
Ryanair makes money, very few others do. They offer a package that people show up for. Punters love them and the safety record does not scare anyone away. What you expect them do , offer more than they need to!!!
Nobody is dumping on Ryanair pilots because this is led by Ryanair pilots. The pilots in question are asking to be given the opportunity in the company to vote freely for Union Representation if they want it and to have freedom of association? Their choice either way. If you think giving someone that democratic right (that is enshrined in law) is foolish or "trouble causing" then I have to say more the fool you, for not exercising that right or recognising that employees do have it. Just as the pilots and staff at Southwest have taken that right which works in partnership with the company and SWAPA. Pilots want partnership not conflict!

I find it very disappointing that posts make reference to those pilots as "trouble makers" when it is those pilots that are giving the opportunity to Ryanair pilots to collectively stick together and improve treatment of staff. Is that a bad or evil thing as some posters reference to such words as trouble makers? Which group of pilots have the whole Ryanair pilot community at heart? The pilots who want to deal collectively and stop personal intimidation as happened with the pilot in question on this thread or the one eye go getters who want only what is good for them in their own personal life and career?

I think the question is quite easy to answer when you appreciate what risks Ryanair pilots are taking with such an aggressive management to improve the collective treatment of ALL Ryanair pilots..

How long do you want to turn a blind eye to the abuses that continue in the Ryanair work environment? Because the question has to be asked when will people acknowledge that enough is enough and people do not and will not be treated in such a manner? There is only so long that people can not answer or dodge that question because at some point we are all going to have to answer it through looking at your own feelings. Leave people to continue to be abused and to rot as in the pilot in question on this thread and has happened for the last 10 years in Ryanair (Capt J. Goss and the many more other examples to note) or treat everyone with a certain amount of respect and collectively say NO to management abuses of staff and the continual flagrance of the law and peoples well being?? It will be all of our choice when the time comes.

The people on pprune who are generally dumping on Ryanair pilots seem to be two different bodies.

1. There is a group of people pertaining to be pilots from other companies that are attacking Ryanair pilots. Many of these posters are not pilots in other companies or are a small disturbed minority because everyone I speak to in the wider industry and friends of mine who work for other companies in Europe, UK and all over the world wish Ryanair and its pilots the greatest of success but most of all think we need basic rights and to be treated properly in the work environment. So to try and link that pilots in other companies think Ryanair pilots are "scabs" is totally wrong as they do not. The majority of pilots working in other companies want the best for Ryanair pilots and actually think we are bullied, intimidated and oppressed. This type of anti RYR pilot post is not the view of the educated majority of pilots out in the industry but of the minority or even connected with something more sinister?

A good tactic for management would be to make the RYR pilot feel like they are in a community against other pilots would it not? That RYR management would want RYR pilots to feel that they have my best interests at heart and that all the other big bad pilots in other companies want RYR to fail so stick with us lads. WRONG. It shows you know nothing of the aviation piloting community as a whole or anything about the profession. The majority of pilots in other companies do not think RYR pilots are "scabs" or any other type of negative remark and it is a low tactic by management and is very easily read. Hence the messages of support on here and in the Newsletters from the many pilots in other companies that BALPA is recognised in. Pilots out in the wider community want Ryanair pilots to be able to be treated properly as do Ryanair pilots themselves.

Strangely some people are missing the whole point of why Ryanair pilots want a vote on recognition which is because we want to be treated with dignity and respect. Is that something that people whether they be pilots or not should not ask for as a basic concept of how to deal with employees? The pilots are not asking for big fat wage increases or for all the year off. Pathetic.

2. The second group are the posters that think that employees are an expense that should be minimised. A very nice touch on how you view human beings with democratic and legal rights but we will leave that to an aside.

Southwest is a success and it treats staff very well and is Unionised of its own accord with SWAPA. It is an example of what can be achieved by working with employees for a long term partnership. BALPA is not a third entity but is Ryanair pilots themselves. All Ryanair pilots are asking for is to be able to work with management in partnership and to be treated properly without unilateral changes of employment contract and threats. Do you think that is too much to ask for? Both SW and RYR are lowcost and make money (except when not hedging or on ego trips) and that is about where the comparison ends. As both companies clearly have totally different theories on how to treat staff and human beings.

There is only so long you can treat people like dog dirt because it isn’t a long term future or business model for a company that is now Ryanairs size. It is short term consumerism with very large staff turnovers and is an immediate money making scam for the present Ryanair management. Long term success such as that of Southwest demonstrates that treating staff well and caring for their well being is a longer term future for growth and success.

If we want to go by the laws of economics and if Ryanair opens a base in Wroclaw do you think that permanent pilots will go out to man the base when there are floating contractors flying out of UK bases? I will let you answer that question..

It is management that is threatening pilots to stop their legal right for recognition and who are making threats to close a base. Who is to blame? The pilots for wanting to be treated better or the company for wanting total control and not working with pilots in any sort of meaningful way?

A base should be shut because of financial realities of the world we live in. If Ryanair chooses to shut a base (which they might be able to do at any time anyway) it is because the base is not financially viable or because it is not having the desired effect on competitors that it wants. In simple terms if the base isn't making money then why keep it open? It seems quite naive to say that Ryanair can't do it anyway and that is whether BALPA is recognised or not? It would be quite interesting to watch them shut the whole of the UK down though. Imagine how that would be explained to shareholders with no first wave departures from the UK and aircraft all based in Europe without any pilots to fly them.. How long would EW and DOB be in the job then?? Will Ryanair management shut a base? Possibly. Which base? Who knows? Will they shut every UK base? No.

We as in pilots are not "toying" with anybody’s job. It is the company management that are doing so as has proved with this thread by dismissing a pilot without good reason for simply being a member of a trade union and trying to stick up for fellow staff. Don't be short sighted by trying to blame people who are trying to improve conditions in Ryanair. Is it our (as in the pilots) fault when it is management who are acting in such a way?

The wider effects are understood hence why the call for partnership and not conflict. Both sides of the fence have to have realised what the effects are to themselves as people or on the company and its books and the wider economic environment. Nobody is taking extraordinary action here apart from asking to be given the right to vote freely for or against union recognition. It seems that the company is NOT willing to let pilots exercise that right freely and democratically.

Is it the pilots making unilateral actions and making THREATS or is it members of Ryanair management?

The effect of closing a base is clearly understood by all in the wider union membership and leadership across the UK and beyond. They also know what might happen because of recognition in Ryanair. The treatment of staff at Ryanair though is quite obvious to all hence why so many Ryanair threads are on this site and the discussions out in the general public at large. Do you think this is a small group of people letting off hot air? Because I think you will find it is a very large group of people with genuine grievances on how they are being treated. Everyone knows this and why Ryanair is talked about so much! Staff and other union members across Europe have seen the effects of non-recognition in Ryanair and what has steadily happened to treatment of employees! So your question is slightly skewed.

Continue down the path of bullying and victimisation and the lowering of terms and a short term view of running a company or make a long term change to try and achieve a working partnership for the future as Southwest pilots and many other companies around the world have achieved? That is the effect of recognition and what it can achieve!

Last edited by alibaba; 22nd Jun 2009 at 11:44.
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 11:24
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For those that don't seem to understand how the company could handle closing UK bases and continue to fly from them.
There are already a number of very busy airports that are not bases, like eg BVA (Paris) many aircraft fly in and out, even through on a "W" pattern, but there in no ryanair staff employed there.
They could easily alter any UK base to operate in a similar fasion, with the exception of STN. This could however be seriously reduced in size, even crewed just with contractors. If there is a time for a union recognition battle, I don't think this is it. As I have already said, BALPA have everything to win and nothing to loose, We on the other hand, could risk loosing everything!
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 11:29
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I tried reading your post alibaba but you are all over the place.

Let's get back to basics:

It seems to me that Ryanair have made sham findings of gross misconduct against this captain and proceeded to unfairly dismiss him.

The sham findings appear to be discrimination against and deliberate victimisation against a respected employee with a penchant for promoting the union.

Such matters are very easily dealt with at the Employment Tribunal. The law is written for exactly this kind of stuff. I imagine that if it goes to a hearing, the Employment judge will quite quickly tire and warn Ryanair that if they persist in arguing safety in a case which plainly is about nothing of the kind, then costs will be awarded against them if they are found to be abusing the Tribunal system in the same way they abuse staff, abuse accepted disciplinary procedures and abuse the law itself.


The rest is rot and plenty of it. It's obvious pilots barely talk to each other and most just accept they are in harness during working hours like blinkered horses head down before the plough.

Not this captain though. He has his life under his own terms. A bit of a challenge at the moment, for sure. What is it you others think you have?
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 11:31
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Just to add;
Moreover, there have been a couple of questions towards BALPA asking what it is exactly it will do for it's members. So far, the silence there has been deafening.
What do you want BALPA (which is you and me as pilots by the way) to do for you? You as BALPA have already started the process for recognition so you as a collective group are actively doing something to achieve formal collective strength. All pilots in the bargaining unit will get a secret and confidential ballot to either vote for or against recognition. It's free and fair and totally confidential but not so free that management won't make threats (memo's and base meetings) and try to intimidate the pilots as has been done with this STN Captain.

Do you want BALPA to STOP Ryanair making dismissals? Do you want to STOP Ryanair management making unilateral changes to agreements and contracts? Do you want BALPA to tell you that you are going to be all ok and to sleep tight?

Surely you can see that BALPA as you can not make such statements as we are not recognised and there is no formal collective strength to stop these abuses. BALPA is not a fairy god mother and the answer to all your prayers. But is the best available tool for collective strength that we have to stop abuses that will happen if BALPA or a union is not there. Unfortunately you have to rely on a court of law at the moment for these things and after the event has happened because the law is defined but to exercise the legal system you are doing so in a retrospective manner. Also BALPA can not change economic realities. In other words if a company goes bust because of a bad business model or fuel hedging or bad routes how can that be BALPA's as a unions fault?

There needs to be a bit of self responsibility on pilots as to how they stand up for their own rights. There has to be self responsibly of how terms are decreasing and who's fault that is? Nobody is going to make the decisions for you as it is your life and democratically you have to take responsibility for your own actions as you do in all facets of life just as the company does. You have to take responsibility for yourself and by acting collectively as a group you will have strength in that ability to come to sensible resolutions with companies.

I will leave you with this question also; many pilots who have left Ryanair with disciplinary action but the management choose not to publish that on Crewdock. Why now?
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 12:34
  #116 (permalink)  
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If Unions in general are so great then please explain why UK unions oppose the mandatory implementation of the European Working Time Directive and thus force people into having to work long hours just to earn a subsistance income?

Why don't unions persue the objective of all people being paid at a rate that 40 hours per week would provide a living wage and anything more than that would be a bonus rather than the current UK situation where many workers have to work 50+ hours per week just to survive?

Or would that be in the category of - we will not press that issue because it could adversely affect a more important issue.

Unions have an agenda. Your will only get assistance with your situation for as long as it is in accordance with the overall agenda and the union will not have to give ground elsewhere on what they term more important topics.

For example, union assistance to this pilot would be heavily affected by future salary and condition negotiations with the company.

Does anyone not believe that when MOL meets the union he would not say the following;

"Ok we'll give this guy 50 grand and he will have to agree not to make any statements regarding any issue. If you press for more then we will have to look at the staffing of Bournemouth because we might be removing the BASE status."

Result = Union tell the pilot to take the 50 grand and in a later press release tell the Bournemouth pilots how through their negotiations they have received an assurance from management that ther base will not be closed.

Am I anti-union : No.

Do I have a realistic view of the various limits that unions operate under - Yes.

This link might be of interest to everyone;

crapunion.co.uk

Have a look at how the various unions in NATS have operated and changed the worker's pay and conditions over the past 10 years.

I believe that new hires at NATS are paid only a fraction of what they were paid in the 1990's.

Regards,

DFC
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 13:56
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To those calling for the BALPA game plan to be published here, and to those saying that unions have agendas.

This is not the time and the place to publish such information. Surely the time and the place is AFTER union recognition has been achieved, as then, and only then, can a proper debate take place, and Ryanair pilots can vote on what they want to pitch for in negotiations. Contrast this with the current "well lads, the company say we can have a small pay cut or a large pay cut, so we recommend that you accept the small pay cut, and BTW they want changes to this and that or it will be the loss of this or that allowance".

Any 'agenda' should be decided by the pilots themselves. BALPA has not come in to Ryanair like some white knight on a horse to slay the dragons. What has happened is that a group of Ryanair pilots have said 'enough is enough' and have launched this bid to regain a say in how the pilot body is treated by Ryanair management. They need legal protection, advice and help to do this, and this is where BALPA comes in.

Of course it is in the management's interest to try and portray BALPA as a bunch of outsiders who are interefering. This is false. BALPA is you, me, and any other pilot who has an interest in how the company moves forward. Ryanair is a very healthy company financially, even with the wholesale wasting of profits through extremely unsuccessful fuel hedging and the purchase of Aer Lingus shares. It can afford to treat its staff better. THE MANAGEMENT JUST DOESN'T WANT TO.

This is your chance to make a change. Don't waste it. Not participating in the vote is a 'no' vote, so sign the petition

https://www.balpa.org/getdoc/a98486c...rPetition.aspx

and when the vote comes, make yours count and back your fellow pilots!
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 14:25
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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I have registered for this site because I am fed up reading misleading posts about pilot associations made by various posters. I find the idea that pilot associations are run for purposes other than looking after their members peculiar, since the majority of European pilot associations, like the one I belong to, are very small organisations. What else could they be expected to do, other than look after the interests of their members? (By small organisations I mean with as few as 1-4 full-time staff).

What else are they for than the members, and who can the mysterious people the run them actually be?

However, there is one problem, and that’s this thing called democracy. Sometimes you are on the loosing side of a vote. If you don’t like the outcome you can give out about the association and claim all sorts of nonsense about stupid leaders or idiot pilots. But what you mean is that your point of view did not carry the day. This is even more to the point for the 3 or 4 large associations in Europe, where the decisions are necessarily more complicated.

Unions do not have policies, their members do. Members create and modify policies by participating and using their votes. By the standards of big unions, even the largest pilot associations are very small. They idea that they run around for other purposes seems quite misplaced. A pilots association is just that, an ASSOCIATION. You can opt in, or you can opt out.

Pilots are naturally conservative, but even the most conservative can normally can work out the better choice between (a) being picked off one by one or (b) sticking together. So I find the idea that Ryanair pilots would be better of without union representation so nonsensical that I see no point in joining in any such argument. But I will say one thing, which is that I find it very hard to see how it could make their situation worse.

When I look at the “hobbyhorses” being pursued by those who are against pilot associations I just wonder about what motivates their desire to see Ryanair pilots without a means of defending their interests – interests that can only be decided, democratically, by those very pilots. Does those who oppose unions know better? What have they to fear from being quiet, letting the pilots organise and seeing the outcome? They don't have to join in. So why the repeated negativity? It does not ring true, or is highly patronising towards colleagues.

In fact, who has anything to fear from organised pilots, other than a management that wants to do whatever it wants, regardless of how their pilots feel?
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 15:15
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Real Slim Shady - you hit the nail on the head with "consider the wider effects of the action on members of other unions in the UK and Ireland if your campaign proves successful"

Dont believe for one second that MOL wont close down bases in the UK -even STN if he needed too, sack or not fly pilots, 5/2 roster, send pilots away to other bases...etc - just to say "we told you we'd do it."

And even with recognition, do you really think that on that day its achieved MOL/RYR will suddenly change their tune, give everyone a massive payrise, 1st choice of base, nice paid annual leave....etc NO - it will take years of negotiation and incredibly hard times for all involved NOT just pilots. Cabin crew, engineers, ground crew and indirectly - PAX.

If there was an abundance of jobs for people to fall into then fair game, BALPA would have the majority onboard - however in the midst of a recession and severe lack of a job up the front - i very much doubt much will come from the campaign.

Call me a scab or whatever you like, i know RYR is not perfect but i enjoy flying here. Each to their own.

Whilst i very much agree with dignity and respect - this whole thing couldnt have come at a worse time imho.
CommandB is offline  
Old 22nd Jun 2009, 19:16
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
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DFC

Am I anti-union : No.

Do I have a realistic view of the various limits that unions operate under - Yes.
Could have fooled me.
al446 is offline  

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