Ryanair Captain dismissed for promoting unions
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What very sad news this is, and sadder still that the likes of DFC get to spout their totally corrupted version of Employment Law on PPRuNe like Islamists spout bits of their holy book to suit their rogue agendas.
6.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the dismissal of an employee shall be deemed, for the purposes of this Act, to be an unfair dismissal unless, having regard to all the circumstances, there were substantial grounds justifying the dismissal.
[GA](2) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) of this section, the dismissal of an employee shall be deemed, for the purposes of this Act, to be an unfair dismissal if it results wholly or mainly from one or more of the following:
[GA]( a ) the employee's membership, or proposal that he or another person become a member, of, or his engaging in activities on behalf of, a trade union or excepted body under the Trade Union Acts, 1941 and 1971, where the times at which he engages in such activities are outside his hours of work or are times during his hours of work in which he is permitted pursuant to the contract of employment between him and his employer so to engage,
Read the law here;
Irish Statute Book, Acts of the Oireachtas, Unfair Dismissals Act, 1977, Section 6
So if this pilot was fired for promoting BALPA or handing out leaflets during normal working time it is not unfair.
Regards,
DFC
leezyjet - a voice of reason in the holding pool of pilots
as you know we have spent a lot of money and time in gaining our ratings only for this 'business model' called ryanair to shaft those who are employed by RYR...those who are employed by MOL mostly don't want to 'rock the boat' and i won't go into details about how RYR use newly qualified (at their expense) pilots to perpetuate this business model, but- and i would say this especially to newly employed/BRK RYR crew... look a litttle further into the future!
As i said previously, things WILL come to a head!
As i said previously, things WILL come to a head!
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What an incredible state of affairs! My best wishes go out to the gentleman/professional caught out in this game of industrial ping pong. Prior to downloading our rostas (amongst other necessities) the continuous drip of political dross we must submit as read is becoming childish and irritating.
Whoever represents this former "Company Man" in any forthcoming court case will surely draw on specialist advisers, Material wittnesses as well as character referees. The judge or tribunal will then analyse and evaluate before using such words as unfair dismissal, psychological bullying, intimidation, loss of earnings, stress or deformation of character e.t.c. Doesn't matter if BALPA or anyone else for that matter represent this chap all recent events have done is stoke the fire! As with the hedging and the financial write down on the Lingus shares Ryanair seem hell bent on S&*%£@G the shareholders money up the wall again! Tribunal case should be interesting save me a place in the public gallery!!
Whoever represents this former "Company Man" in any forthcoming court case will surely draw on specialist advisers, Material wittnesses as well as character referees. The judge or tribunal will then analyse and evaluate before using such words as unfair dismissal, psychological bullying, intimidation, loss of earnings, stress or deformation of character e.t.c. Doesn't matter if BALPA or anyone else for that matter represent this chap all recent events have done is stoke the fire! As with the hedging and the financial write down on the Lingus shares Ryanair seem hell bent on S&*%£@G the shareholders money up the wall again! Tribunal case should be interesting save me a place in the public gallery!!
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The pilot in question was bound to UK, English and Welsh Law. Not Irish as he was UK contracted. So the reference you have used DFC is wrong.
Dan Winterland has hit the nail on the head. So the question is how was this Gross Misconduct on safety? This will be up to the lawyers to argue out.
This act will only make pilots more resolute and clear that they have no other choice now than to continue and seek recognition. This type of management will act how it wants, when it wants and will suffer the pain later as the longer economic gain and the obvious attempt to attack hearts and minds against pilots will outweigh the financial loss in tribunal. As the many past industrial tribunal victories and court cases have proven in the past. Management are planning long term as should pilots. The problem for management is that the pilots aren't in the mood for flinching.
Disgusting type of behaviour in the 21st century but nothing the pilot community has not seen before from this company.
Dan Winterland has hit the nail on the head. So the question is how was this Gross Misconduct on safety? This will be up to the lawyers to argue out.
This act will only make pilots more resolute and clear that they have no other choice now than to continue and seek recognition. This type of management will act how it wants, when it wants and will suffer the pain later as the longer economic gain and the obvious attempt to attack hearts and minds against pilots will outweigh the financial loss in tribunal. As the many past industrial tribunal victories and court cases have proven in the past. Management are planning long term as should pilots. The problem for management is that the pilots aren't in the mood for flinching.
Disgusting type of behaviour in the 21st century but nothing the pilot community has not seen before from this company.
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There seem to be a lot of unhappy pilots at RYR. Unhappy pilots can be dangerous pilots.
If you abuse machinery, it will let you down at some stage. If you treat your personal as machines and abuse them, they will let you down, sooner or later.
You will get more productivity from a person who is happy, than unhappy. Same in the simulator, as people perform better in a relaxed and happy environment than one of pressure and fear.
I don't know where all this will lead but it will only take one bad accident (God forbid) to wipe the profits (gained by screwing crew) right out and the smiles off one or two faces. It could ruin a company.
Accident investigators normally find out what went wrong and when. They do not however, have the expertise to know if the crew members involved had their "minds on the job". Pilot error? The question should also be asked is why, the error.
Companies go to great lengths in screening crews to avoid this very thing but once, or before, the crews make the cut, they are abused!
If you abuse machinery, it will let you down at some stage. If you treat your personal as machines and abuse them, they will let you down, sooner or later.
You will get more productivity from a person who is happy, than unhappy. Same in the simulator, as people perform better in a relaxed and happy environment than one of pressure and fear.
I don't know where all this will lead but it will only take one bad accident (God forbid) to wipe the profits (gained by screwing crew) right out and the smiles off one or two faces. It could ruin a company.
Accident investigators normally find out what went wrong and when. They do not however, have the expertise to know if the crew members involved had their "minds on the job". Pilot error? The question should also be asked is why, the error.
Companies go to great lengths in screening crews to avoid this very thing but once, or before, the crews make the cut, they are abused!
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...it is almost always better policy and more fun to be fired rather than to resign.
I know of several companies that will not hire a new employee that has been terminated (fired) for cause, previously.
IE: Burn bridges, expect problems.
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Dear Darling 411A
You say you know of "several" companies who will not hire in this circumstance.
I don't think that "several " is representative of the industry in in general.
Also I do not think that calling a fellow poster a "silly fool" is allowed under forum rules and I will be referring your comment for moderation.
Are you still management of some airline company?
You say you know of "several" companies who will not hire in this circumstance.
I don't think that "several " is representative of the industry in in general.
Also I do not think that calling a fellow poster a "silly fool" is allowed under forum rules and I will be referring your comment for moderation.
Are you still management of some airline company?
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In an otherwise depressing discussion about a depressing employer it is at least good to see that nobody is engaging with 411A, he of the endless negative message and with little to occupy his time.
All but 2 of his 4,500 odd posts concern the uselessness of unions and pilots with the implicit message that everybody should buy their job, defer to any idiot who is "in charge" but who nonetheless uses their skills.
It is also tiresome to hear his examples taken mainly from U.S. airlines and endlessly repeated Monty Pythonesque whine "you are all doomed".
Arizona is just not far enough away for this guff. But you've got to give it to him, he just keeps on going, and going and going.
All but 2 of his 4,500 odd posts concern the uselessness of unions and pilots with the implicit message that everybody should buy their job, defer to any idiot who is "in charge" but who nonetheless uses their skills.
It is also tiresome to hear his examples taken mainly from U.S. airlines and endlessly repeated Monty Pythonesque whine "you are all doomed".
Arizona is just not far enough away for this guff. But you've got to give it to him, he just keeps on going, and going and going.
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Guava Tree
I cannot speak for your industry, but I can confirm, generally speaking, HR will not look with much interest at CVs submitted by terminated employees, worse if the application is for management positions.
FSLF
I don't think that "several " is representative of the industry in in general.
FSLF
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Guava Tree
Are you complaining about "silly" or "fool"?
You said:
I guess there's lots of words for something as stupid as that. 
Also I do not think that calling a fellow poster a "silly fool" is allowed under forum rules and I will be referring your comment for moderation.
You said:
it is almost always better policy and more fun to be fired rather than to resign.
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Guava Tree
Of course "HR" is not acronym for "Human Intelligence", which is supposed to be "HI"
I cannot understand why my location infers with my comment?
Yes, SLF. Your post tends to confirm our belief that is “HR” is not an acronym for “Human Intelligence”.
(at least in Malaysia where is displayed your location)
(at least in Malaysia where is displayed your location)
I cannot understand why my location infers with my comment?
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411A
In an otherwise depressing discussion about a depressing employer it is at least good to see that nobody is engaging with 411A, he of the endless negative message and with little to occupy his time.
Originally Posted by DFC
So if this pilot was fired for promoting BALPA or handing out leaflets during normal working time it is not unfair.
This captain was not fired for that reason; he was fired because he jeopardized safety in some twisted view of some twisted managers. Is that "not unfair" too in your opinion?
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Until self interest is replaced by more altruistic concerns then things will never change, unfortunately don't think that any would be prepared for this sort of action?
Over 2,000 down tools for sacked Total strikers - Telegraph
Over 2,000 down tools for sacked Total strikers - Telegraph
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This captain was not fired for that reason; he was fired because he jeopardized safety in some twisted view of some twisted managers. Is that "not unfair" too in your opinion?
However, what sticks in my mind is - If this pilot was doing something "unsafe" and/or handing out BALPA leaflets, unless it was seen by a manager then who reported the situation?
If it was seen by a manager then the Darwin employment award has been given.
If someone else reported the "activity" to management then is everyone questioning the right of a crewmember to report a safety issue and for action to be taken as a result?
Simply seems to me that if the "incident" happened during flight and the Captain did not report it himself and there was not a manager present to see it then another crew member must have reported the situation?
Regards,
DFC
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It appears there is no end to the abuse we are willing to take to keep our jobs! We prefer to have our health families dignity crash but our flight safety levels are maintained....and the Airline takes the credit for this! Also the fact that if I understand correctly he was fired not for promoting Unions but for doing so in the flight deck is classic RyanAir , so it is a safety compromise not a union membership issue .
Why have we always been so reluctant to "use the safety card" ourselves as a body? This sort of continued intimidation by an obviously deranged man surely is having it own direct impact on an already exhausted and traumatized pilot body.
Advertise widely Unions and get yourselves the best team of layers available!
Why have we always been so reluctant to "use the safety card" ourselves as a body? This sort of continued intimidation by an obviously deranged man surely is having it own direct impact on an already exhausted and traumatized pilot body.
Advertise widely Unions and get yourselves the best team of layers available!