BA seeks volunteers for unpaid leave/work

[BabyBear]

Why are so many so resentful of others earnings?

Originally Posted by er340790

Per BBC 'BA’s pilots earn an average of £107,600.'


Regret to advise that any lingering sympathy has just evaporated.

So what IF BA pilots earn circa £100k, should they earn the same as cabin crew, or should all BA staff have a reduction in salary?

Originally Posted by Capot

Mr Walsh, of course, who could be replaced with someone of equal or better competence and willing to work on, say £150K

No doubt WW could be bettered, however by definition anyone accepting the job on a salary of £150k would have to have their sanity questioned.

[Joetom]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ml#post5003088
.
Good post, the middle managers will be taking the lions share of this very kind offer.
.
As for Waterland, think of it like a person who pops down to a local shop for a newspaper and faggs, driving his Rolls Royce with the hand brake stuck on, he will tell you by leaving the brake on saves him doing that function when he parks the car on double yellows, the extra fuel/wear+tare/fines are to be expected anyway ???

[Andy_S]

I do blame him for not closing it down decisively and quickly, and getting rid of its denizens at the same time.

I sympathise. But would they get a decent price for it right now? Who would buy it in the current economic climate?

He might be better off only using part of the premises and sub-letting some of the office space.

[Capot]

ASFKAP

Please, don't ever mistake me for someone who works in BA! I worked for an Associate Co in the 70's, and that was bad enough.

But I've had to be very aware of the details of its operation in the last 2 decades, along with other airlines. My observations about its management and maintenance are those of an outsider, dumbfounded that the company still gets it so wrong, while aware of the reasons/excuses.

You're right about the inter-departmental wrangling, though. There are those in the company who do this as a full-time task.

[Diamond_Dog]

Is BA really now just a "Pension Fund with Wings" ????

All those guys out there retired on final salary on £100k+ pa pensions.. Living much longer & enjoying a wonderful retirement no doubt.. Fantastic!!! Sustainable???

What's the deficit now? Way in excess of the actual value of the company? How much did BA have to put in this financial year to top it up?

There may be trouble ahead!

[wobble2plank]

Ironically if you asked someone 20 years ago what a BA Captain earned they would say £100,000. Ask the same 10 years, 5 Years ago and last year and you would get the same answer.

The 'substantive' pay hasn't changed that much over an awful long time and is worth far less than it was 20 years ago. Still, not bad pay for the industry but that reflects BA's wish to entice qualified pilots into the company thus reducing their training overheads and insurance liabilities.

Look at an 'average' snapshot of a Low cost carrier and you will get a far different figure due in part to the large amounts of 'pay to train' bonded pilots.

"Lies, damn lies and then statistics"

Never trust 'em

[Big Hilly]

Good to see some things never change in BA, each section in BA thinking the company revolves around them and every other section is a drain on the resources and should be got shot of.....

In fairness, I have yet to encounter an airline/organisation where this is not the case. Having said that I guarantee that were you to stroll around Waterworld, you would pretty quickly come to the conclusion that there are an awful lot of people sitting around drinking cappuccinos not actually doing an awful lot of work. Whatever other issues BA has, take it from me, there is a great deal of fat that could be trimmed down at Waterworld. . .

[Tercarley]

Diamond Dog

There are two pension schemes in BA. The NAPS pension scheme is in deficit but not the APS one and those that have retired up to recently are probably all in the APS scheme. It is the "younger" employees that are in the NAPS that will be in trouble.

A couple of years ago BA tried to manouvre APS scheme to amalgamate with the NAPS scheme and we werent having any of it and didnt do so. Thats why the ABAP was formed to fight the proposal.

[Sonic Bam]

BA Engineering

"And then there's the unbelievably inefficient BA maintenance monster, spread around the UK, wasting money."

Capot - please expand and substantiate above comment.

[Capot]

OK, I tried to explain it in a few pithy sentences, and couldn't, so I did what I do when I'm stuck for a pithy sentence and went to Wiki to see what they could do, and here it is. It speaks for itself.

Part of the problem is the large number of types, which is a BA inefficiency which causes maintenance inefficiency. But who in their right minds would sit down and, with a clean sheet of paper, design a maintenance structure like this?

Please note that I do NOT mean that the various maintenance sites are not themselves efficient, top quality etc. It's the whole creaking structure that's so wasteful.

British Airways Engineering is the aircraft maintenance subsidiary of British Airways plc which provides support services to British Airways and other airlines. It is responsible for the entire BA main-line fleet maintenance, cabin interior conversions and general ramp maintenance work for both their own fleet and other airlines. It also sends some of its own heavy maintenance work out to other companies, although the vast majority of aircraft and cabin interior work is still carried out by BA Engineering itself.

British Airways Engineering was formed from the merger of the engineering divisions of BOAC and BEA's when the two airlines merged in 1974 to form British Airways. Today, British Airways Engineering has hangars at Heathrow (its base), Gatwick, Glasgow and Cardiff International airports as well as hundreds of line maintenance stations (engineers based around the world to do minor 'line' maintenance such as routine daily inspections or minor repairs). A team of about 30 engineers are still based at MAN earning revenue from a large number of third party airlines. It also consists of the Avionic division which is based at Pontyclun, South Wales, which services the majority of the removable avionic units, and some mechanical components.
There are now 3 main maintenance hangars at Heathrow, these being (TB standing for technical block) TBJ, TBK and TBA along with a huge maintenance hangar called TBE and engineering's main office building called TBC.

TBJ & TBK (4 bays combined together): All of BA's 747 fleet 'light' maintenance is done here. The hangars are complete with component and engine maintenance facilities, workshops and a small interior 'patching up' line (to do minor maintenance on seats). Outside the hangar there is a parking area for the up to 8 planes and an engine test pit.

TBA (8 bay hangar): Airbus A319, A320, A321, 757 and 767 'light' maintenance along with almost all 757 and 767 fleet 'heavy' maintenance is done here.

TBE: The minor or 'casualty' hangar, is where most minor work is done, engine and leg changes for example and any work that can be done in the short period of time an aircraft has on the ground. The section covers all the airline's Airbus fleet along with the Boeing 757 and 767 aircraft. Engineers based here support the line maintenance and major maintenance areas as required and the section is now known as the FSU (Fleet Support Unit).

TBC: Engineering's main offices and some training facilities are located here, and is where most support engineers and senior managers are based. Planning, development, finance and technical support sections are all based on the 9th floor. The ground floor houses the engine workshops.

British Airways Maintenance Cardiff (BAMC) is based at Cardiff International Airport. Here, all 747 and 777 fleet 'heavy' maintenance along with most of the airline's long-haul fleet interior conversions is done. British Airways Avionic Engineering (BAAE) is also based in South Wales which is responsible for the repair, modification and overhaul of the vast majority of the avionic and electrical components used in the BA fleet and some of those used by other airlines. It is situated in three purpose built workshop buildings at Llantrisant.
British Airways Maintenance Glasgow (BAMG) is where all Airbus A319, A320, A321 and Boeing 737 'heavy' maintenance is done. The hangar has avionic, composite and an interiors workshop. All components that are not overhauled at Glasgow are sent to London for overhaul. Line maintenance at Glasgow is carried out by hangar engineers, as well as a dedicated shift for night stop-overs. BA's B737 'light' maintenance is carried out at Gatwick.

Get the point? It might look OK to engineers, but it must rank as the most wasteful arrangement that could possibly be devised, in terms of resources consumed for the result.

PS....There's a clue to how this all came about in the words merger of the engineering divisions of BOAC and BEA's, and in the fact that there are large bases in Scotland and Wales, which has as much to do with politics as common sense.

[Ancient Observer]

BA ticket costs

An earlier poster said that one should not compare "snapshots" of prices.
That poster is correct.
I have been taking multiple "snapshots" of BA and other's prices over the last few months for some trips I want to take.
The facts are simple - whilst I want to fly BA, and whilst I would like to, I simply cannot afford to. The Asia and ME alternatives are so much cheaper.
If the prices relate to the rewards their staff receive, then.................it's obvious, isn't it?

[Juud]

Not only in BA.....

From the FT: KLM recruits pilots for down-to-earth duties

... Two jobs the pilots are being asked to cover are “baggage recovery agents” in the arrivals hall and “hospitality agents” in the airline’s business class lounges...

KLM cabin crew was asked in March to either opt for a temporary lower employment percentage or take unpaid leave. Enough CC availed themselves of the various schemes, and the company will not have CC sitting at home on full pay this summer.
KLM also wants to avoid pilots sitting at home on full pay, so the above scheme was proposed in addition to unpaid leave and temporary lower employment percentages.
Apparently the number of pilots going for the above has risen since.

[Capot]

ASFKAP

In a way, you have confirmed my assertion, that BA have the arrangements it has for all the wrong reasons; re-employing Welsh miners (re-trained) being only one of many. The give-away building has cost BA dearly.

Yes, part of the problem, almost a cause of it, is the number of types BA operates, and any long-term solution to BA's woes, apart from losing its present management, MUST start with reducing that number. As ever, BA is in that situation not from considered choice, but because it fell into it for all the wrong reasons.

It's all a bit like Heathrow. No-one is his or her right mind would build an airport like Heathrow, to serve Heathrow's planned capacity, on a greenfield site. The whole mess has evolved through a mixture of poor plannning, lack of long-term vision and/or the will to carry it through, bad management, political interference, frequent changes of purpose, and last-minute panic.

Back to BA Maintenance. I stand by my belief that no-one would set it up as it now is, given a clean sheet of paper and the task of creating an efficient maintenance structure for BA.

Dream of all BA base maintenance in one suitable place if in-house, otherwise contracted out to get the optimum combination of cost and quality. Essential line maintenance only at all its stations, but enhanced at LHR and LGW just enough to carry out some packages on the line to reduce hangar visits, and certain bigger unscheduled urgent tasks if and when needed.

Remind you of anyone?

My guess is that the cost of that could be 60% - 75% of the existing arrangements, with an improved outcome in terms of maintenance downtime and serviceability.

The reality is that it's never going to happen; there are too many entrenched prejudices and people inside the system who can't see how it looks from the outside.

PS Before anyone rises up to admonish me, yes, I am well aware of the problem of using up slots on non-revenue positioning flights. But why do aircraft have to go to scheduled base maintenance from, and come back to service at one of the hubs? Answer is, they don't.

[stormin norman]

Diamond dog

BA might have trouble with its pension scheme ,but i'm sure there are a lot of airline employees out there who would love to have a pension scheme to worry about-good or bad, instead of looking forward to just a state pension (if there's any left)

[seventhree]

By doing this BA management has transformed BA into an Amateur Airline. If you want to fly over oceans with amateurs, have at it, but if only if you are comfortable with the level of care and dedication provided by maintenance technicians who work for free.

If they can't afford to operate the CAA should come to life and pull their certificate.

[Walnut]

Whilst I believe Willie Walsh is thinking outside the box I believe he needs to go further.

The revenue shortfall just like General Motors problem is immense. At least 10%. I believe BA is burning cash, circa stg 3M per day, so reading Doug Brown's e-mail to all pilots little time is left before bankruptcy.

Staff costs are about 20% of BA's annual costs so 1 months salary cuts by ALL staff would only improve revenue viz expenditure by 1.1/2% in this financial year.

Not enough.

The only thing that would improve things dramatically, is to close the NAPS pension scheme to all staff. BA currently pay 25% of salary to cover staff in this scheme, the majority. so this action could save about 5% of BA's costs.
Even this action is only about of 50% of the current revenue shortfall.
Whilst this is a bitter pill for staff to accept it must be better than losing ones current income. The scheme rules allow closure with 6 months notice.

If BA do go bankrupt, a real possibility according to Chief Pilot Doug Brown, then of course the government Pension protection scheme kicks in, to protect the NAPS shortfall.

However with debts of approaching stg 3B there is a real possibility that this will totally absorb the Pension protection schemes resources, leading to more problems for the Gordon Brown government.

[120class]

Not quite like working for free...

Perusing the the company intranet on the subject of 'Voluntary Unpaid Work' reveals that only basic pay is affected. Allowances, shift pay & benefits etc are still paid.

Not quite the same as working for free...

[Human Factor]

Back to BA Maintenance. I stand by my belief that no-one would set it up as it now is, given a clean sheet of paper and the task of creating an efficient maintenance structure for BA.

Perhaps. Where would you put this efficient maintenance structure though? LHR certainly doesn't have any room.

How about out in the regions somewhere.

[TURIN]

Oy Capot.

That Wiki thing is well out of date.

I should know I wrote some of it!

Back on thread.

As a shift worker, I will lose a hell of a lot more than a weeks pay if I take a full working week off.
Don't ask. It's too complicated to explain.

[Donkey Duke]

Looks like there could be some redundencies....

BA pilots offered shares for pay cut deal
Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:02pm EDT

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LONDON, June 18 (Reuters) - British Airways (BAY.L) pilots are set to vote on a deal under which they would receive shares in the company in return for a pay cut, the latest measure to help the airline through the economic downturn, a union said on Thursday.

Pilots are being urged to accept a draft pay and productivity package agreed between the British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA) and BA, designed to save the company 26 million pounds ($42.28 million) annually.

It follows an earlier appeal by BA, which reported a record annual loss last month, for staff to work for free or go on unpaid leave for a period.

"The pay and productivity package will help BA get through the current economic downturn whilst, for the first time, giving pilots the mechanism to take a real share in the wealth they will help to create," BALPA said in a statement.

Under the union recommendation, pilots would see their pay cut by 2.61 percent and their flying time allowances reduced by 20 percent from October.

Pilots' hours would increase and there would be shorter turnaround times on short haul flights.

Nearly 80 pilots' jobs would go through voluntary redundancy.

If certain company targets are met, pilots will be eligible to receive BA shares worth 13 million pounds in 2011, which they must hold for three years before selling.

BALPA members, who make up about 95 percent of BA's 3,200 pilots, are due to vote during the next three weeks.

A spokesman for BA said in a statement it was "pleased" to have reached an agreement with BALPA.

On Tuesday, the company said it had asked for volunteers among its British-based employees to go on unpaid leave or carry out unpaid work for between a week and a month.

Chief Executive Willie Walsh, who earned 735,000 pounds a year and who has promised to work for nothing in July, said the idea was part of BA's across the board cost-cutting measures.

BA, Europe's third-biggest airline by revenue, posted annual operating losses of 220 million pounds and scrapped its dividend in May, saying it had suffered from a downturn in air travel and forecast no immediate revival.

Walsh has said there would be more redundancies after reducing BA's headcount by 2,500 since March last year.

(Reporting by Avril Ormsby; Editing by Bernard Orr)




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