Fatigue & journo asking for info
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To my knowledge, in the company I work for 4 pilots have crashed their cars due to falling asleep at the wheel while driving home. One other went off the road when he had a micro-sleep while DRIVING TO WORK. He was on the last day of a particularly taxing series of duties. He sat dazed in his car and called crewing to say he didn't think he would fly that day.
The company I work for uses simulator slots between 2300 and 0500 local time. Leave aside for a moment the stupidity of trying to train people in the dead of night. The simulator is deemed to be located at a major base of the company I work for. It isn't. It's 20 miles away. Pilots who are "out of base" for the simulator detail are given hotel rooms but pilots who are not "out of base" are not, regardless of the distance they commute (plus an additional 40 miles round trip if they live the wrong side) . The managers responsible say they know they have a duty of care but they will not provide a room at the company's expense to mitigate the fatiguing effects of such duty hours. If one wishes to stay safe while driving it's at one's own expense. For those from other bases, it isn't. Wrong.
On the plus side, when I have called in fatigued, I fill in a form and that's it. No call for a chat without coffee.
The company I work for uses simulator slots between 2300 and 0500 local time. Leave aside for a moment the stupidity of trying to train people in the dead of night. The simulator is deemed to be located at a major base of the company I work for. It isn't. It's 20 miles away. Pilots who are "out of base" for the simulator detail are given hotel rooms but pilots who are not "out of base" are not, regardless of the distance they commute (plus an additional 40 miles round trip if they live the wrong side) . The managers responsible say they know they have a duty of care but they will not provide a room at the company's expense to mitigate the fatiguing effects of such duty hours. If one wishes to stay safe while driving it's at one's own expense. For those from other bases, it isn't. Wrong.
On the plus side, when I have called in fatigued, I fill in a form and that's it. No call for a chat without coffee.
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HGV Hours rules
Comparisons with driving a heavy goods vehicle are somewhat miss leading, whilst the concentration required pre flight and during take off and landing is far higher once in the cruise it is boredom that needs addressing.
Driving a heavy goods vehicle you will be subject to more noise, changes in temp, delays and frustration plus the aggresion of other road user's, in an aircraft you can let your guard down at times (go down the back for a piss) and there are at least two of you.
If you work for any short haul airline (not just Loco) here in the UK you are going to work fairly hard for your money, where you live and have to work is a big factor and often results in the breakdown of relationship, not because of the stress that distance puts on a family, but all to often because you are away from home in hotel's with members of the opposite sex and a lot of (male) pilots can't keep their d**k in their pockets.
As for work induced fatigue, yes it happens, but in my experiance it is all too often to do with the changes between early/lates and lack of rest.
We have pilots who travel over 90 minutes to work, which means they must be up at 3 am and are heading back over the M62 at 5pm in the rush hour perhaps getting home at 7pm to do the same tomorrow, just 8 hours later. For many moving isn't an option even swapping house at the price level involves many £k... in stamp duty and legal costs
A good friend at bmi regional is a case in point, he has travelled over the M62 for several years and last Autumn with high fuel prices he had enough and put his property up for sale, just last week he agreed a sale only to find out that bmi are pulling the aircraft and he could well be heading to ABZ
My point is that the fatigue is about far more than just the hours, my advice to anyone looking at coming into this industry, is to think long and hard about it, its not the Virgin add you see on telly, unless you are very lucky and get in with someone who doesn't play musical bases, then plan on living in a trailer or canal barge, i understand that bmi will not pay a penny in relocation cost, but may be forced to pay redundency if relocation is not a realistic propostion
Driving a heavy goods vehicle you will be subject to more noise, changes in temp, delays and frustration plus the aggresion of other road user's, in an aircraft you can let your guard down at times (go down the back for a piss) and there are at least two of you.
If you work for any short haul airline (not just Loco) here in the UK you are going to work fairly hard for your money, where you live and have to work is a big factor and often results in the breakdown of relationship, not because of the stress that distance puts on a family, but all to often because you are away from home in hotel's with members of the opposite sex and a lot of (male) pilots can't keep their d**k in their pockets.
As for work induced fatigue, yes it happens, but in my experiance it is all too often to do with the changes between early/lates and lack of rest.
We have pilots who travel over 90 minutes to work, which means they must be up at 3 am and are heading back over the M62 at 5pm in the rush hour perhaps getting home at 7pm to do the same tomorrow, just 8 hours later. For many moving isn't an option even swapping house at the price level involves many £k... in stamp duty and legal costs
A good friend at bmi regional is a case in point, he has travelled over the M62 for several years and last Autumn with high fuel prices he had enough and put his property up for sale, just last week he agreed a sale only to find out that bmi are pulling the aircraft and he could well be heading to ABZ
My point is that the fatigue is about far more than just the hours, my advice to anyone looking at coming into this industry, is to think long and hard about it, its not the Virgin add you see on telly, unless you are very lucky and get in with someone who doesn't play musical bases, then plan on living in a trailer or canal barge, i understand that bmi will not pay a penny in relocation cost, but may be forced to pay redundency if relocation is not a realistic propostion
I'm only a wannabe at the moment, but I currently work as Navigating Officer (keeping 4 hours on, 8 hours off bridge watches) in commercial shipping. I thought the seagoing fatigue guidelines might be interesting for comparison:
Minimum 10 hours rest in any 24 hour period, with rest in not more than 2 periods, one of which to be a minimum of 6 hours.
Minimum 77 hours rest per week.
The regulations are more in-depth than that, but that's the basic outline of rest requirements for watchkeepers. These guidelines are also based on the knowledge that your bed is never more than a few decks away from you, and on a job that requires minimal fine motor skills.
It also requires far lower instantaneous levels of concentration for shorter time periods (ie a maximum of 4 hours, possibly 6 on rare occasions on watch).
Minimum 10 hours rest in any 24 hour period, with rest in not more than 2 periods, one of which to be a minimum of 6 hours.
Minimum 77 hours rest per week.
The regulations are more in-depth than that, but that's the basic outline of rest requirements for watchkeepers. These guidelines are also based on the knowledge that your bed is never more than a few decks away from you, and on a job that requires minimal fine motor skills.
It also requires far lower instantaneous levels of concentration for shorter time periods (ie a maximum of 4 hours, possibly 6 on rare occasions on watch).
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I know this is centering around F/D fatigue, but Ezy has just had an alleviation from the CAA to allow their cabin crew to "trial" a flexible roster. Its a killer with several crew a month filling in fatigue reports.
I guess as Cabin Crew are thought of as ten a penny, it doesn't seem to be high up on the agenda.
Will there have to be yet another serious incident where fatigue plays a part before serious steps are taken to prevent/improve fatigue issues.
I guess as Cabin Crew are thought of as ten a penny, it doesn't seem to be high up on the agenda.
Will there have to be yet another serious incident where fatigue plays a part before serious steps are taken to prevent/improve fatigue issues.
Driving a heavy goods vehicle you will be subject to more noise, changes in temp, delays and frustration plus the aggresion of other road user's, in an aircraft you can let your guard down at times (go down the back for a piss) and there are at least two of you.
I think that the reduced oxygen of being at a cabin altitude of 8000ft for seven hours a day has a significant effect. Also, with 30 min turn arounds and five or six sectors there is very little time to relax. A ten minute break, out of the aircraft, sitting in a crew room would set me up well for the second half of a day but unfortunately that luxury is long gone. I used to enjoy it when we could do this, it was a social time as well and seemed to ease the mental stresses.
Things much more dangerous than planes.....
There are many examples in our world of things much more dangerous than planes, which are run 24 x 7 by people on wierd and wonderful rosters..........think of chemical plants, nuclear plants and so on. They often have very creative, very flexible rosters. The individuals in control have just as much responsibility as pilots. They also have the possibility of fatigue.
They work much longer hours than pilots and cc.
I would suggest that you research them aswell.
However, I think you will find that none of them are allowed to "commute" in the same way that some pilots do. Some pilots think nothing of commutes of 90 min.s or more each way.
If I was in charge of an airline, long commutes are one thing I would ban as they are unsafe.
They work much longer hours than pilots and cc.
I would suggest that you research them aswell.
However, I think you will find that none of them are allowed to "commute" in the same way that some pilots do. Some pilots think nothing of commutes of 90 min.s or more each way.
If I was in charge of an airline, long commutes are one thing I would ban as they are unsafe.
Funny that you should mention operators at nuclear and chemical plants
Ancient Observer wrote
Well, it is interesting that you should admonish us to do so as to an extent I have when I was writing a short book two years ago. I post a short sentence or two from my discussions with a a chance meeting that I had with a sleep researching physician. The operators/workers in the nuclear and chemical industry face a litany of fatigue issues themselves. It is increasingly coming under researchers' purview that anyone who works in a "rotating shift" environment is prone to a number of physical and psychological stress issues.
Having grown up within sight of the Three Mile Reactor, I have little doubt that this growing corpus body of research is not far from the mark.
This, in my humblest of opinions, is where the journalist from the Guardian should start to form the framework for his writings--the coorelation between air transport work and other industries in their approaches in scheduling and the pitfalls such work schedules present.
I use the below words with my own permission
Seated next to me was a physician, a sleep researcher, from a renowned medical university, who had begun the conversation by asking me what I thought of the way in which aircraft were pressurized and the high cabin altitudes at which we flew for hours. I quickly realized that this man was asking a little more than the usual “is it true that we are at the same altitude in the plane as being at a ski resort in Colorado?” In fact, I was so startled by his breadth of knowledge, that soon it was I who was asking questions of him, but not before he posed an intriguing problem.
He waxed a bit philosophical as he asked me if I knew what the Union Carbide accident in Bhopal India, the incident at Three Mile Island, the oil spill from the Exxon Valdez, and many trucking accidents have in common. I thought for a moment as I twisted my dinner fork around a few times. When he realized that my answers were well wide of the mark, he revealed that the common thread was that all occurred under the supervision of shift workers at a time when they normally would have been asleep. Bhopal and the Exxon Valdez occurred shortly after midnight, Three Mile Island at 4 a.m., and the trucking accidents have a strong statistical cluster between 4 and 7 a.m. They were not just night shift workers, he went on, but much worse, workers in which the schedules were constantly rotating between day and night. The physician, already knowing the answer smiled mischievously and asked, “Do you ever work schedules like that?”
There is, of course, much more to the stories of Bhopal, Three Mile Island and the other incidents than just workers who needed to be in the land of Nod instead of on the clock, but he was touching on a theme that is almost an obsession with aircrews around the world, namely work rest cycles and how and when to get good rest.
think of chemical plants, nuclear plants and so on. They often have very creative, very flexible rosters. The individuals in control have just as much responsibility as pilots. They also have the possibility of fatigue.
They work much longer hours than pilots and cc.
I would suggest that you research them as well.
They work much longer hours than pilots and cc.
I would suggest that you research them as well.
Having grown up within sight of the Three Mile Reactor, I have little doubt that this growing corpus body of research is not far from the mark.
This, in my humblest of opinions, is where the journalist from the Guardian should start to form the framework for his writings--the coorelation between air transport work and other industries in their approaches in scheduling and the pitfalls such work schedules present.
I use the below words with my own permission
Seated next to me was a physician, a sleep researcher, from a renowned medical university, who had begun the conversation by asking me what I thought of the way in which aircraft were pressurized and the high cabin altitudes at which we flew for hours. I quickly realized that this man was asking a little more than the usual “is it true that we are at the same altitude in the plane as being at a ski resort in Colorado?” In fact, I was so startled by his breadth of knowledge, that soon it was I who was asking questions of him, but not before he posed an intriguing problem.
He waxed a bit philosophical as he asked me if I knew what the Union Carbide accident in Bhopal India, the incident at Three Mile Island, the oil spill from the Exxon Valdez, and many trucking accidents have in common. I thought for a moment as I twisted my dinner fork around a few times. When he realized that my answers were well wide of the mark, he revealed that the common thread was that all occurred under the supervision of shift workers at a time when they normally would have been asleep. Bhopal and the Exxon Valdez occurred shortly after midnight, Three Mile Island at 4 a.m., and the trucking accidents have a strong statistical cluster between 4 and 7 a.m. They were not just night shift workers, he went on, but much worse, workers in which the schedules were constantly rotating between day and night. The physician, already knowing the answer smiled mischievously and asked, “Do you ever work schedules like that?”
There is, of course, much more to the stories of Bhopal, Three Mile Island and the other incidents than just workers who needed to be in the land of Nod instead of on the clock, but he was touching on a theme that is almost an obsession with aircrews around the world, namely work rest cycles and how and when to get good rest.
Last edited by Uncle Fred; 15th Jun 2009 at 14:58.
UF - good point
UF - good point.
There is no consistent, agreed set of "sleep research", which is why so many variations on rosters inside and outside Aviation exist. The military should have it all cracked - but they do not appear to.
I would expect the operators of a nuclear sub. to be working optimal shifts for concentration. However, we just do not know whether or not that is true!
There is no consistent, agreed set of "sleep research", which is why so many variations on rosters inside and outside Aviation exist. The military should have it all cracked - but they do not appear to.
I would expect the operators of a nuclear sub. to be working optimal shifts for concentration. However, we just do not know whether or not that is true!
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Pilot fatigue is like 'having too much to drink'
The above are not my words but the headline for the online article taken from the CNN website . it may or may not be interesting to you guys concerning the issue of fatigue .
The article is in relation to the accident report into the Continental Flight 3407 which was operated by Colgan Air Inc
Pilot fatigue is like 'having too much to drink' - CNN.com
hard hitting journalism , complete b..sh.t , or the truth ...im not sure but its interesting to read .
The article is in relation to the accident report into the Continental Flight 3407 which was operated by Colgan Air Inc
Pilot fatigue is like 'having too much to drink' - CNN.com
hard hitting journalism , complete b..sh.t , or the truth ...im not sure but its interesting to read .
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My company has recently revised FTLs, reflecting the extentions that the local Authority has recently approved (after consultation with the National carrier).
Now a two-man crew can operate up to 13 hours for morning flights and the previous 30 min post-flight is no longer included in the FDP. In-one fell-swoop, 1 hour 30 mins were added to FTLs.
If it is a night flight FTLs are lower...... but not by much, however as a loop-hole, augmented crews are allowed, HOWEVER unless the flight is over 12 hours, no rest facilities are provided. (some rest one gets on the jumpseat
).
Should the flight be longer than 12 hours (and at night) then the company has to give one economy seat for augmented crew to get his/her 'rest'. This seat is at the very back, and does not even recline, is 50 cm from the toilet electric flushing and is precicely where toilet queue gathers, with curious and surprised pax, always passing their usual comments ("who's flying the plane?")
Just last week I had a two sector 11 hour (duty) red-eye flight, which for a matter of minutes was just two-man crew, and on return, towards top of decent, at something like 8am, I just could not keep my eyes open. I had rested the afternoon before, and felt OK for both departures, so what should I have done? Inflight diversion? That would have woken me up!
Oh, and after a flight like that one needs a local night off. That means duty at 8am, which means getting up at 6am. Now thats quality rest for you, init?
Now a two-man crew can operate up to 13 hours for morning flights and the previous 30 min post-flight is no longer included in the FDP. In-one fell-swoop, 1 hour 30 mins were added to FTLs.
If it is a night flight FTLs are lower...... but not by much, however as a loop-hole, augmented crews are allowed, HOWEVER unless the flight is over 12 hours, no rest facilities are provided. (some rest one gets on the jumpseat
). Should the flight be longer than 12 hours (and at night) then the company has to give one economy seat for augmented crew to get his/her 'rest'. This seat is at the very back, and does not even recline, is 50 cm from the toilet electric flushing and is precicely where toilet queue gathers, with curious and surprised pax, always passing their usual comments ("who's flying the plane?")
Just last week I had a two sector 11 hour (duty) red-eye flight, which for a matter of minutes was just two-man crew, and on return, towards top of decent, at something like 8am, I just could not keep my eyes open. I had rested the afternoon before, and felt OK for both departures, so what should I have done? Inflight diversion? That would have woken me up!
Oh, and after a flight like that one needs a local night off. That means duty at 8am, which means getting up at 6am. Now thats quality rest for you, init?
Last edited by Jetset320; 15th Jun 2009 at 18:51.
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FAA action to curb pilot fatigue !
FAA administrator says he'll pursue new rules on airline pilot hours to curb fatigue
6/15/09 11:20PM GMT
By JOAN LOWY , Associated Press Writer
Obama administration officials said Monday they will propose new limits on how many hours airline pilots can fly in an effort to curb pilot fatigue, an issue safety officials have been urging action on for two decades.
Randy Babbitt, the head of the Federal Aviation Administration, said he will propose the new rule in the next several months. A former airline pilot who has been at FAA only a few weeks, Babbitt said the issues is complicated because a pilot flying fewer hours with more takeoffs and landings will likely experience more fatigue than a pilot on a longer flight with only one takeoff and one landing.
6/15/09 11:20PM GMT
By JOAN LOWY , Associated Press Writer
Obama administration officials said Monday they will propose new limits on how many hours airline pilots can fly in an effort to curb pilot fatigue, an issue safety officials have been urging action on for two decades.
Randy Babbitt, the head of the Federal Aviation Administration, said he will propose the new rule in the next several months. A former airline pilot who has been at FAA only a few weeks, Babbitt said the issues is complicated because a pilot flying fewer hours with more takeoffs and landings will likely experience more fatigue than a pilot on a longer flight with only one takeoff and one landing.
Ancient Observer
You make a good point about the type of research. Having started out flying military transports I have always taken a bleary-eyed but avid lay interest in this field and have tried to do as much germane reading as possible. That of course does not make me anything close to a research expert but it did allow me to draw perhaps one conclusion and that concerning rotating shift schedules.
After having poured over the likes of Dr. Rosekind's publications (when he was still at Nasa-Ames and which I found rather diconnected from how a true line sweaty/smelly feels after a month of tough rosters) and his sawing on about Zeitgebers and how the sun cures all ills (exageration intended on my part), I realized that so many of these studies were looking at limited time frames--a few flights at a time.
A couple of years ago however, I ran across a study that was performed in one of the American plants of a Japanese automaker--say it was Toyota or Honda/Acura. The management, to foster morale, gave the workers the option of how they would like to arrange their schedules. In conjunction with a worker's council they adopted the rotating schedule that brought workers through the 24 hour cycle. In other words, first week or two one worked 7:30 to 4:30. Then for two weeks from 4:30 until midnight or so and then the third rotation from late at night until early morning.
Over a year the researchers found markedly higher incidences of sick leave, mood swings and changes, and all the rest. Of course no matter what kind of schedule personnel will still fall ill, have domestic troubles etc., but so marked was the uptick in these mental health areas that the workers, surprised at what had happened with them, then voted in the council to go back to set schedules for 6 months before they rotated (if at all). So although morale was high and the company made the workers feel needed, a rotating schedule basicall (no pun intended) cleaned their clocks.
What the workers thought was a great deal actually knocked the stuffing out of them. Surprisingly, it was one of the first (although I soon discovered that there were a couple of others) studies that I had read that took a look at the rotating shift scenario. That, in aviation seems to be one of the real problems and it was what the physician that I mentioned in my writing was so keenly focused on.
I wish that I could speak with him again, as he was well versed in this and thus his reference to Bhopal, Three Mile Island, and the other shift work incidents.
What I really wish I could speak with him about however, is if there has been any advancement in what he thought could very quickly measure tiredness and fatigue--that of using light to measure how quickly the pupil dialates. He thought it was the "killer app" for measuring attentiveness, much in the same way that LEOs use it for drunk driving suspicion. Ntocie the phrase "attentiveness." For that is really the key and is the bottom line IMHO whether one has been ground to dust working in the mines 20 days in a row, or if simply you missed a night of sleep whilst working and your brain is trying to grab some micro sleep.
Can you imagine the apopletic response however, from the ATA if this were actually tried out and the tiredness that was discovered sloshing around in the world's air transport industry? It would take legions of ATA spokesmen and women to fight a pitched battle against medical reality--something perhaps akin to the tobacco industry denying that smoking was bad for you.
One thing that I found interesting in the reading and discussion with physicians however, was that they often tended (although this is not true across the board) to equate tiredness with fatigue. If I have been on vacation for 6 months but have to get up at 3 a.m. to drive to the airport and operate a flight I very well might be tired. Same if I have been on vacation for 6 months and now am flying the red-eye but have been awake for the last 24 hours. As one researcher told me, "someone can fall asleep at the wheel of a car" by being tired and not fatigued. In this case, the number of hours since the last QUALITY sleep opporunity outweighs what one was doing for the past two weeks... Micro sleep and other BWP activity can come about with or without weeks of previous fatigue accretion.
From the land of Nod...
You make a good point about the type of research. Having started out flying military transports I have always taken a bleary-eyed but avid lay interest in this field and have tried to do as much germane reading as possible. That of course does not make me anything close to a research expert but it did allow me to draw perhaps one conclusion and that concerning rotating shift schedules.
After having poured over the likes of Dr. Rosekind's publications (when he was still at Nasa-Ames and which I found rather diconnected from how a true line sweaty/smelly feels after a month of tough rosters) and his sawing on about Zeitgebers and how the sun cures all ills (exageration intended on my part), I realized that so many of these studies were looking at limited time frames--a few flights at a time.
A couple of years ago however, I ran across a study that was performed in one of the American plants of a Japanese automaker--say it was Toyota or Honda/Acura. The management, to foster morale, gave the workers the option of how they would like to arrange their schedules. In conjunction with a worker's council they adopted the rotating schedule that brought workers through the 24 hour cycle. In other words, first week or two one worked 7:30 to 4:30. Then for two weeks from 4:30 until midnight or so and then the third rotation from late at night until early morning.
Over a year the researchers found markedly higher incidences of sick leave, mood swings and changes, and all the rest. Of course no matter what kind of schedule personnel will still fall ill, have domestic troubles etc., but so marked was the uptick in these mental health areas that the workers, surprised at what had happened with them, then voted in the council to go back to set schedules for 6 months before they rotated (if at all). So although morale was high and the company made the workers feel needed, a rotating schedule basicall (no pun intended) cleaned their clocks.
What the workers thought was a great deal actually knocked the stuffing out of them. Surprisingly, it was one of the first (although I soon discovered that there were a couple of others) studies that I had read that took a look at the rotating shift scenario. That, in aviation seems to be one of the real problems and it was what the physician that I mentioned in my writing was so keenly focused on.
I wish that I could speak with him again, as he was well versed in this and thus his reference to Bhopal, Three Mile Island, and the other shift work incidents.
What I really wish I could speak with him about however, is if there has been any advancement in what he thought could very quickly measure tiredness and fatigue--that of using light to measure how quickly the pupil dialates. He thought it was the "killer app" for measuring attentiveness, much in the same way that LEOs use it for drunk driving suspicion. Ntocie the phrase "attentiveness." For that is really the key and is the bottom line IMHO whether one has been ground to dust working in the mines 20 days in a row, or if simply you missed a night of sleep whilst working and your brain is trying to grab some micro sleep.
Can you imagine the apopletic response however, from the ATA if this were actually tried out and the tiredness that was discovered sloshing around in the world's air transport industry? It would take legions of ATA spokesmen and women to fight a pitched battle against medical reality--something perhaps akin to the tobacco industry denying that smoking was bad for you.
One thing that I found interesting in the reading and discussion with physicians however, was that they often tended (although this is not true across the board) to equate tiredness with fatigue. If I have been on vacation for 6 months but have to get up at 3 a.m. to drive to the airport and operate a flight I very well might be tired. Same if I have been on vacation for 6 months and now am flying the red-eye but have been awake for the last 24 hours. As one researcher told me, "someone can fall asleep at the wheel of a car" by being tired and not fatigued. In this case, the number of hours since the last QUALITY sleep opporunity outweighs what one was doing for the past two weeks... Micro sleep and other BWP activity can come about with or without weeks of previous fatigue accretion.
From the land of Nod...
Last edited by Uncle Fred; 16th Jun 2009 at 15:58.
Sanjaime
I almost fear seeing what Babbit et al have planned. I know for some sleeping patterns the rules proposed might actually make things worse. As you can see from my previous post, it also worries me how they use the word "fatigue." Remember, the overarching principle here has not, heretofore, been fatigue allieviation, but rather economic viability.
I almost fear seeing what Babbit et al have planned. I know for some sleeping patterns the rules proposed might actually make things worse. As you can see from my previous post, it also worries me how they use the word "fatigue." Remember, the overarching principle here has not, heretofore, been fatigue allieviation, but rather economic viability.
Roster patterns
UF
I looked in to this in some detail, but about 20 years ago! The research, as I remember it now, and memory can be wrong, was thin, and in the UK was mainly in the MoD. Sectors such as nuclear and chemicals had no "clean" research. The research focussed on speed and accuracy of response when something goes wrong in complicated circumstances. Naturally, the events were "simulated", as doing real research in to firing atomic bombs and so on might upset neighbouring states.
Their conclusion was the same as the earlier poster from the military. 4 hours on, 4 hours off, with a full 8 hour break every so often - I can't remember the frequency.
However, to put against your Japanese car firm example, the UK chemical/pharma sector allows staff much freedom to set their own rotas. The staff preference was to have relatively quickly rotating patterns, with bursts of work, in either 8 or 12 hour shifts, concentrated to-gether so that time off could be bundled together. The medic.s who looked at these patterns found no particular problems, other than the "early hours" (in the morning) slower responses - but they happen whatever rotation the shift cycle uses. There were no repeats of the problems you described in the Japanese car firm. I've lots of theories as to why that might be, but they are beyond my typing skills.
I looked in to this in some detail, but about 20 years ago! The research, as I remember it now, and memory can be wrong, was thin, and in the UK was mainly in the MoD. Sectors such as nuclear and chemicals had no "clean" research. The research focussed on speed and accuracy of response when something goes wrong in complicated circumstances. Naturally, the events were "simulated", as doing real research in to firing atomic bombs and so on might upset neighbouring states.
Their conclusion was the same as the earlier poster from the military. 4 hours on, 4 hours off, with a full 8 hour break every so often - I can't remember the frequency.
However, to put against your Japanese car firm example, the UK chemical/pharma sector allows staff much freedom to set their own rotas. The staff preference was to have relatively quickly rotating patterns, with bursts of work, in either 8 or 12 hour shifts, concentrated to-gether so that time off could be bundled together. The medic.s who looked at these patterns found no particular problems, other than the "early hours" (in the morning) slower responses - but they happen whatever rotation the shift cycle uses. There were no repeats of the problems you described in the Japanese car firm. I've lots of theories as to why that might be, but they are beyond my typing skills.
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It is still a very simple case of the tail wagging the dog.
1. A/C can fly further and for longer time so companies demand that crews work longer hours than years ago. Not necessarily in-line with good human performance.
2. New type of operations require that a/c operate very different patterns to years ago. So crews have to change their life style and sleep patterns to match the schedules the companies want. Not necessarily in-line with good human performance.
The rules have beedn relaxed and stretched for economic reasons. The applicable medical knowledge/application of many years ago was based more on common sense and respect of a good balance between work and play time. That has gone. Respect of play/family time has disappeared in search of more profit at all costs.
Much human performance research has been done in relation to this topic. It has not been repected and acknowledged as it is inconvenient. Remember CAA's have a conflict of interest in their policing activities. Who are they really protecting; the airlines, the crews or the passengers?
1. A/C can fly further and for longer time so companies demand that crews work longer hours than years ago. Not necessarily in-line with good human performance.
2. New type of operations require that a/c operate very different patterns to years ago. So crews have to change their life style and sleep patterns to match the schedules the companies want. Not necessarily in-line with good human performance.
The rules have beedn relaxed and stretched for economic reasons. The applicable medical knowledge/application of many years ago was based more on common sense and respect of a good balance between work and play time. That has gone. Respect of play/family time has disappeared in search of more profit at all costs.
Much human performance research has been done in relation to this topic. It has not been repected and acknowledged as it is inconvenient. Remember CAA's have a conflict of interest in their policing activities. Who are they really protecting; the airlines, the crews or the passengers?
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Something moving at the FAA.................
ATW Daily News
FAA starts 'expedited review' of pilot rest rules, plans 'rapidly' to develop new rule
Thursday June 25, 2009
Related Microsites
Stay ahead with the latest aviation & MRO industry news : Delta TechOps
Read about company developments including our launch of the Government Research tool : Inventory Locator Service
US FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt said yesterday that the agency is initiating "an expedited review of flight and rest rules" and "will work rapidly to develop and implement a new flight time and rest rule."
Babbitt said that "pilot fatigue [is now] a high priority" for FAA and called for US airlines and pilot unions "to respond [to FAA] by July 31 with specific commitments to strengthen safety at regional and major airlines." He said carriers must "obtain all available FAA pilot records, among other actions."
In a statement, he said he will establish an Aviation Rulemaking Committee on pilot fatigue by July 15 comprising FAA, labor and industry representatives "that will be charged with developing recommendations for an FAA rule by September 1." Also by July 15, FAA inspectors "will complete a focused review of airline procedures for identifying and tracking pilots who fail evaluations or demonstrate a repetitive need for additional training." Inspectors additionally will review airlines' pilot training and qualification programs to ensure they meet FAA standards.
"Safety remains the airlines' top priority," Air Transport Assn. President and CEO James May said yesterday, adding that Babbitt's statement "reflects our shared commitment to adopt meaningful safety initiatives on an aggressive timeline."
Congress and FAA have become intensely interested in pilot training and rest procedures, particularly at US regional airlines, in the aftermath of February's fatal crash of a Colgan Air Q400 outside Buffalo. Babbitt, formerly president of the Air Line Pilots Assn. and an Eastern Airlines pilot for more than 25 years, signaled last week that the agency this summer would tackle aggressively issues surrounding pilot training and fatigue and rest rules (ATWOnline, July 17).
Babbitt said he told airlines in a letter sent yesterday that they should "immediately adopt a policy to ensure that their pilot applicants release any records held by the FAA to the hiring air carrier while the agency works with Congress to update the current Pilot Records Improvement Act of 1996." He added that FAA "expects airlines that have contractual relationships with regional feeder companies to develop specific programs to share safety data and ensure that their partner airlines mirror their most effective safety practices."
by Aaron Karp
Thursday June 25, 2009
Related Microsites
Stay ahead with the latest aviation & MRO industry news : Delta TechOps
Read about company developments including our launch of the Government Research tool : Inventory Locator Service
US FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt said yesterday that the agency is initiating "an expedited review of flight and rest rules" and "will work rapidly to develop and implement a new flight time and rest rule."
Babbitt said that "pilot fatigue [is now] a high priority" for FAA and called for US airlines and pilot unions "to respond [to FAA] by July 31 with specific commitments to strengthen safety at regional and major airlines." He said carriers must "obtain all available FAA pilot records, among other actions."
In a statement, he said he will establish an Aviation Rulemaking Committee on pilot fatigue by July 15 comprising FAA, labor and industry representatives "that will be charged with developing recommendations for an FAA rule by September 1." Also by July 15, FAA inspectors "will complete a focused review of airline procedures for identifying and tracking pilots who fail evaluations or demonstrate a repetitive need for additional training." Inspectors additionally will review airlines' pilot training and qualification programs to ensure they meet FAA standards.
"Safety remains the airlines' top priority," Air Transport Assn. President and CEO James May said yesterday, adding that Babbitt's statement "reflects our shared commitment to adopt meaningful safety initiatives on an aggressive timeline."
Congress and FAA have become intensely interested in pilot training and rest procedures, particularly at US regional airlines, in the aftermath of February's fatal crash of a Colgan Air Q400 outside Buffalo. Babbitt, formerly president of the Air Line Pilots Assn. and an Eastern Airlines pilot for more than 25 years, signaled last week that the agency this summer would tackle aggressively issues surrounding pilot training and fatigue and rest rules (ATWOnline, July 17).
Babbitt said he told airlines in a letter sent yesterday that they should "immediately adopt a policy to ensure that their pilot applicants release any records held by the FAA to the hiring air carrier while the agency works with Congress to update the current Pilot Records Improvement Act of 1996." He added that FAA "expects airlines that have contractual relationships with regional feeder companies to develop specific programs to share safety data and ensure that their partner airlines mirror their most effective safety practices."
by Aaron Karp
