Airlines To Routinely Monitor Cockpit Voice Recordings?
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Ah so neh 411A; yep, routinely done by some Asian airlines. Strayed into an auditorium in Korean OCC one day and , holy cow! What've we here? , a bunch of Korean pilots and ground staff was listening to playback of CVR recordings as part of their " safety " seminar. Guess what, I said goodbye to KAL shortly after that!
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Just playing Devils advocate here (in other words, please don't take this as my opinion, just putting it out there so don't flame me...).
Presumably most people here go into shops and the like, where we know we will be recorded on CCTV. We chose to do so knowing this is necessary in the owners eyes to prevent theft by customers and staff, in the most part. So, how exactly is it different if the company who owns the expensive aircraft and has their name and therefore reputation plastered down the side wants to know how it is being treated by it's employees? Do you not think that the owner/operator of the aircraft has any right to know if it's crews are engaging in things outside the SOPs they are employed to work to?
In other words, the flight deck is not your car. You do not own it. It is a work premises and as such the company have a right to monitor it. Discuss.......
Personally, I think that this will eventually happen worldwide. The feeling against it will eventually be replaced with ambivalence, just like the CCTV cameras we find ourselves on every day now. As an aside, I find the idea of a "professional" flight crew disabling, by the pulling of a C.B, a hugely important piece of accident investigation equipment offensive in the extreme. Some things are worth more that your conversations about the inane details of everyday life or the new contract offer on the table.
Presumably most people here go into shops and the like, where we know we will be recorded on CCTV. We chose to do so knowing this is necessary in the owners eyes to prevent theft by customers and staff, in the most part. So, how exactly is it different if the company who owns the expensive aircraft and has their name and therefore reputation plastered down the side wants to know how it is being treated by it's employees? Do you not think that the owner/operator of the aircraft has any right to know if it's crews are engaging in things outside the SOPs they are employed to work to?
In other words, the flight deck is not your car. You do not own it. It is a work premises and as such the company have a right to monitor it. Discuss.......
Personally, I think that this will eventually happen worldwide. The feeling against it will eventually be replaced with ambivalence, just like the CCTV cameras we find ourselves on every day now. As an aside, I find the idea of a "professional" flight crew disabling, by the pulling of a C.B, a hugely important piece of accident investigation equipment offensive in the extreme. Some things are worth more that your conversations about the inane details of everyday life or the new contract offer on the table.
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I'm failing to understand why CVR monitoring is objected so much while FDR monitoring is not? It is mandatory in EU for quite a few years to run Flight Data Monitoring Programme on aircraft bigger than certain size (basically any big turboprop, regional jet and bigger), procedures are in place and no one seem to complain.
You can apply most of the arguments against CVR monitoring to FDR monitoring as well.
You can apply most of the arguments against CVR monitoring to FDR monitoring as well.
I'm failing to understand why CVR monitoring is objected so much while FDR monitoring is not? It is mandatory in EU for quite a few years to run Flight Data Monitoring Programme on aircraft bigger than certain size (basically any big turboprop, regional jet and bigger), procedures are in place and no one seem to complain.
You can apply most of the arguments against CVR monitoring to FDR monitoring as well.
You can apply most of the arguments against CVR monitoring to FDR monitoring as well.
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CargoOne.
If you can't see the difference you are a bloody fool. The FDR is there to monitor the way I fly the aircraft. I fly it in accordance with the SOPs and Airbus limitations and expect the F/O to do the same.
I DO NOT expect to have all conversations I have monitored by management.
If I or my F/O want to discuss any aspect of the company in the cruise, or any other matter, I think it is reasonable. If I want to discuss any aspect of the flight I dont believe it is anybody's business except the crew's.
Like SO MANY ideas that todays idiots (sorry politicians/bosses) have, it will actually have the opposite effect.
Increase saftey? Yea course it will. CVR C/B Off!!
If you can't see the difference you are a bloody fool. The FDR is there to monitor the way I fly the aircraft. I fly it in accordance with the SOPs and Airbus limitations and expect the F/O to do the same.
I DO NOT expect to have all conversations I have monitored by management.
If I or my F/O want to discuss any aspect of the company in the cruise, or any other matter, I think it is reasonable. If I want to discuss any aspect of the flight I dont believe it is anybody's business except the crew's.
Like SO MANY ideas that todays idiots (sorry politicians/bosses) have, it will actually have the opposite effect.
Increase saftey? Yea course it will. CVR C/B Off!!
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Originally Posted by qwertyuiop
CVR C/B Off!!
What I would agree with, is pressing the 'erase' button once the aircraft is on the stand, the landing was a good one, and "the aircraft can be used again".
CJ
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CVR C/B Off!!
In the words of Sting. “Every move you make, I’ll be watching you.”
If Weird Al Yankovick were singing the song he would change the lyrics… “Every move you make OFDM will be watching you.”
For all those who see nothing wrong with CVR monitoring; you imagine carrying a live mic/recorder with you on your whole work day. It wont be just the company monitoring it, but government/authorities too. Once the CVR recording is off the aircraft, it is open to all who think they have the right to listen in. Think of all the divorce lawyers who would be interested in cockpit conversations!!
This is why there was a lot of resistance to CVR when it was implemented, and why it was guaranteed (Chicago Convention) that recordings must be erasable if no incident had occurred. It is also why CB's have been reluctantly pulled in the past when this confidentiality has been breached, by police warrant or other legal requisition.
Pilots are the first to agree that it is a huge flight safety tool, and support its use for flight safety. FLIGHT SAFETY ONLY. Not snippy managers looking for gossip in confidential conversations.
This is why there was a lot of resistance to CVR when it was implemented, and why it was guaranteed (Chicago Convention) that recordings must be erasable if no incident had occurred. It is also why CB's have been reluctantly pulled in the past when this confidentiality has been breached, by police warrant or other legal requisition.
Pilots are the first to agree that it is a huge flight safety tool, and support its use for flight safety. FLIGHT SAFETY ONLY. Not snippy managers looking for gossip in confidential conversations.
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Still your logic is not consistent.
You flying aircraft according to SOPs and doing everything right? Then why company runs flight data monitoring? Are they not trusting you?
Same thing about CVR monitoring. Now we know for sure that not all crews are following rules and this contributed to many accidents, so why it is treated differently from flight data monitoring then? How airline knows you following sterile cockpit unless it can run CVR monitoring?
By the way, flight data monitoring system has its own procedures to keep data anonymous and there are separate procedures how it can be reversed in case serious incident was discovered after analysis, this involves crew representative to attend as well. I don't see any problems if similar procedure is applied to CVR monitoring. For example, cruise records can be checked only if some event recovered from FDR, climb/descent/taxi/startup can be monitored in full as chit-chat is not supposed to be there anyway.
You flying aircraft according to SOPs and doing everything right? Then why company runs flight data monitoring? Are they not trusting you?
Same thing about CVR monitoring. Now we know for sure that not all crews are following rules and this contributed to many accidents, so why it is treated differently from flight data monitoring then? How airline knows you following sterile cockpit unless it can run CVR monitoring?
By the way, flight data monitoring system has its own procedures to keep data anonymous and there are separate procedures how it can be reversed in case serious incident was discovered after analysis, this involves crew representative to attend as well. I don't see any problems if similar procedure is applied to CVR monitoring. For example, cruise records can be checked only if some event recovered from FDR, climb/descent/taxi/startup can be monitored in full as chit-chat is not supposed to be there anyway.
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What is good for one is good for all.
Perhaps the day has arrived for CVRs and FDRs to go away. The LOAs negotiated as a foundation to their implementation has been eroded and the information misused. If you don’t understand the abbreviations then I’m not interested in your opinion on these matters-you are entitled to them in a free society I’m just not interested in them. Parking brake: set, erase button: pushed-“shutdown checklist complete”.
Unfortunately it won’t be that simple as this is going to have to be defeated in the public arena. It’s time to record all conversations in government and the halls of corporate power during business hours, including telephone, email and text, and release them to the legal profession and to the public for scrutiny-oh wait there are law(s) against that. Why would that be? Isn’t it in the public’s interest to ensure all our elected/appointed leaders and business titans are at all times adhering to every policy statement and law on professional conduct? Certainly the decisions made directly impact hundreds, thousands and in some case millions of lives. I want to know what’s going on, and I have the background to understand the context. I can listen and form my own opinions.
Unfortunately it won’t be that simple as this is going to have to be defeated in the public arena. It’s time to record all conversations in government and the halls of corporate power during business hours, including telephone, email and text, and release them to the legal profession and to the public for scrutiny-oh wait there are law(s) against that. Why would that be? Isn’t it in the public’s interest to ensure all our elected/appointed leaders and business titans are at all times adhering to every policy statement and law on professional conduct? Certainly the decisions made directly impact hundreds, thousands and in some case millions of lives. I want to know what’s going on, and I have the background to understand the context. I can listen and form my own opinions.
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The same sort of over-reaction as those who say that one mph over a speed limit on the freeway is a capital offence!
There's a huge difference between the odd casual remark such as "what a beautiful sunset" and the protracted bantering and out-the-window sightseeing that has preceded one or two crashes in the past.
Yes, keep your mind on the job but the odd casual comment isn't the end of the world.
There's a huge difference between the odd casual remark such as "what a beautiful sunset" and the protracted bantering and out-the-window sightseeing that has preceded one or two crashes in the past.
Yes, keep your mind on the job but the odd casual comment isn't the end of the world.
De-identifying the CVR? Now there's good one. Reminder to myself: must breathe some helium before flying so no one can recognize my voice.
Methinks that CVR are not enough, what we need is cockpit cameras with laws providing that anyone using camera records for anything else than incident/accident investigation gets jailed. As chances of this actually happening are nil, we have to stick with what we have and oppose routine CVR downloading. Just to prevent some posters from playing dumb: objection is not against the increased safety but rather against using the recordings for non-aviation safety related purposes. We don't talk just sunsets, flowers & children in cruise. CEO's new Lexus may draw some attention, especially if it's purchased after pilots' pay cut.
But then airline Mgmt are top-class professionals who would never do anything illegal or unethical, would they?
Methinks that CVR are not enough, what we need is cockpit cameras with laws providing that anyone using camera records for anything else than incident/accident investigation gets jailed. As chances of this actually happening are nil, we have to stick with what we have and oppose routine CVR downloading. Just to prevent some posters from playing dumb: objection is not against the increased safety but rather against using the recordings for non-aviation safety related purposes. We don't talk just sunsets, flowers & children in cruise. CEO's new Lexus may draw some attention, especially if it's purchased after pilots' pay cut.
But then airline Mgmt are top-class professionals who would never do anything illegal or unethical, would they?
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Many years ago now, one of the bosses at the old Ansett was a bloke called Dusty L***. Dusty was often to be seen at the end of the day heading towards one or more of the company aircraft that finsihed its day at head office, headset in hand, to sample what the troops were saying in the last half hour of their final sector for the day. It got to the point where many pilots would end their checklist with a cheery "Good night Dusty!"
The Kiwis have for once lead the world in this in their use of a CVR to prosecute a crew after an accident. Unfortunately, its use, once established, is a bit like nuclear weapons - once used in one instance, all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to put the cat back in the bag. Lawyers will, one way or another, get their way if the investigation reveals something useable to gain their clients - and them - some cash in court.
For those who say "hit the erase button", there's no such beast on many of the more modern aircraft, and that "last 30 minutes", whether officially acknowledged or not, has stretched quite considerably on some aircraft in recent years.
The Kiwis have for once lead the world in this in their use of a CVR to prosecute a crew after an accident. Unfortunately, its use, once established, is a bit like nuclear weapons - once used in one instance, all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to put the cat back in the bag. Lawyers will, one way or another, get their way if the investigation reveals something useable to gain their clients - and them - some cash in court.
For those who say "hit the erase button", there's no such beast on many of the more modern aircraft, and that "last 30 minutes", whether officially acknowledged or not, has stretched quite considerably on some aircraft in recent years.
I see that ALPA has come out against the use of CVR recordings in an operator based review in a FOQA fashion.
In my mind it's inappropriate crew response that is the safety related concern either as the failure to take action or taking the wrong action in the conduct of the flight. DFDR recorders do a good job at gathering this data to be discerned by experts. Yes, in some cases what is being said at the time often helps rationalize the state of the crew's mind based on experience, but that is the job of the incident/accident investigator not an airline management task.
To me, what is being said is no more than verbalizing your thoughts and you can't stop the brain from thoughts. The concern is when your brain farts interfere with your expected actions and that can best be discerned via the data recorders on the aircraft which brings us back to the safety professionals and out of the hands of management (FOQA) etc.
In my mind it's inappropriate crew response that is the safety related concern either as the failure to take action or taking the wrong action in the conduct of the flight. DFDR recorders do a good job at gathering this data to be discerned by experts. Yes, in some cases what is being said at the time often helps rationalize the state of the crew's mind based on experience, but that is the job of the incident/accident investigator not an airline management task.
To me, what is being said is no more than verbalizing your thoughts and you can't stop the brain from thoughts. The concern is when your brain farts interfere with your expected actions and that can best be discerned via the data recorders on the aircraft which brings us back to the safety professionals and out of the hands of management (FOQA) etc.
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Say whatever you want, but say what is critical to the flight only below 10,000 ft. and keep the non-essential flight data to yourself. Enough said..
Regards,
jack
Regards,
jack
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Clandestino
1. Managment knows what pilots saying about them. It is not a rocket science and doesn't matter what airline - pilots are never happy. 2. Managment don't care about what pilots saying about them, because all pilots are the same, you will achieve nothing by firing one and employing other.
So nothing will change with CVR monitoring.
1. Managment knows what pilots saying about them. It is not a rocket science and doesn't matter what airline - pilots are never happy. 2. Managment don't care about what pilots saying about them, because all pilots are the same, you will achieve nothing by firing one and employing other.
So nothing will change with CVR monitoring.
1. One thing is not being happy with T&Cs in general. Other is commenting e.g. that last change of them gets into legally gray area and exploits local CAA/courts of law inertia.
2. There is financial incentive to replace more expensive employees with cheaper ones. Provided that there's defined bonus for length of service with the company and management doesn't give a sternmost part of rattus norvegicus, bar tail, about experience of their pilot as long as they meet legal minima, that's what they'll try to do.
Keep playing, you're doing well.
2. There is financial incentive to replace more expensive employees with cheaper ones. Provided that there's defined bonus for length of service with the company and management doesn't give a sternmost part of rattus norvegicus, bar tail, about experience of their pilot as long as they meet legal minima, that's what they'll try to do.
Keep playing, you're doing well.