Airlines To Routinely Monitor Cockpit Voice Recordings?
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Perhaps a different context give a fresh perspective...
I am a teacher trainer and former language teacher myself. My job is to teach Asian public school teachers how to teach English. The biggest problem we have are teachers who take a teaching course and then go back to their classrooms and do exactly the same wrong things they did before the course. As an example, many Asian teachers have students memorize dialogs. During the course we show them that research results indicate that this type of language teaching (audio-lingual) is not effective, and that a communicative approach is better.
So, what often happens? Teachers go back to their classrooms and have students memorize dialogs and then call it communicative language teaching. In other words they have not changed at all.
I can go into a classroom and observe a teacher, but they will be on their best behavior and not really show me what they normally do - which I can often find out by asking the students if the lesson I observed was normal. So, I would love to have a camera / audio recording of a class that I could randomly review to help fix such bad habits.
Yet when I was only a language teacher myself I fought very hard with a school that installed cameras in the classrooms because it was an invasion of my privacy, not to mention that we all make mistakes and I did not want to be called on small mistakes.
So, should your childrens' teachers be constantly and randomly monitored so that your children get the best education possible, or should they be given the privacy and freedom to run their own classroom the way they feel is best?
They only solution I could see for either pilots or teachers would be to have the recordings made and then double blind reviewed (teacher or pilot does not know and is not known by reviewer) and the results given back to the teacher or pilot privatly without anyone else knowing the results of the review. As a teacher trainer, I sometimes say things I regret in class, and I would not even want my best friend at my school to know that I said it. Thus, even reviews by peers (other pilots or teachers known to the person) would be uncomfortable and I feel counter productive.
The only problem with this is that for the less professional, it would then be too easy to ignore the feedback. Perhpas some flagging of results such that if a person was to have many negative reviews over a period of time, the general nature of those reviews, but not the specifics, could be opened to some sort of review committee.
Now, is it practicle......
TME
I am a teacher trainer and former language teacher myself. My job is to teach Asian public school teachers how to teach English. The biggest problem we have are teachers who take a teaching course and then go back to their classrooms and do exactly the same wrong things they did before the course. As an example, many Asian teachers have students memorize dialogs. During the course we show them that research results indicate that this type of language teaching (audio-lingual) is not effective, and that a communicative approach is better.
So, what often happens? Teachers go back to their classrooms and have students memorize dialogs and then call it communicative language teaching. In other words they have not changed at all.
I can go into a classroom and observe a teacher, but they will be on their best behavior and not really show me what they normally do - which I can often find out by asking the students if the lesson I observed was normal. So, I would love to have a camera / audio recording of a class that I could randomly review to help fix such bad habits.
Yet when I was only a language teacher myself I fought very hard with a school that installed cameras in the classrooms because it was an invasion of my privacy, not to mention that we all make mistakes and I did not want to be called on small mistakes.
So, should your childrens' teachers be constantly and randomly monitored so that your children get the best education possible, or should they be given the privacy and freedom to run their own classroom the way they feel is best?
They only solution I could see for either pilots or teachers would be to have the recordings made and then double blind reviewed (teacher or pilot does not know and is not known by reviewer) and the results given back to the teacher or pilot privatly without anyone else knowing the results of the review. As a teacher trainer, I sometimes say things I regret in class, and I would not even want my best friend at my school to know that I said it. Thus, even reviews by peers (other pilots or teachers known to the person) would be uncomfortable and I feel counter productive.
The only problem with this is that for the less professional, it would then be too easy to ignore the feedback. Perhpas some flagging of results such that if a person was to have many negative reviews over a period of time, the general nature of those reviews, but not the specifics, could be opened to some sort of review committee.
Now, is it practicle......
TME
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Try making deliberate discussions revolving around a particular Rumour,that only a certain number of Crew are involved in.You will see it spreads like wildfire,if Cockpit Voice Recorders are being pulled.Management dont like Crew Room Rumour Network,so all sorts of deviousness can be used to prove whether Management are really doing this or not.There may be more of this than you realise.Similar happened at Britannia in the 80s.90s,with mutual reporting of Fos and Capts to Fleet Captain,as to what was going on and being said on the Flightdeck.
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TeachMe... you're out of your depth here, Mate!
You'll get killed in this forum!
Do yourself a favour and just go away and teach the kids English, which is what you went to Seoul for! And I do wonder why, because they speak both languages pretty well
You'll get killed in this forum!
Do yourself a favour and just go away and teach the kids English, which is what you went to Seoul for! And I do wonder why, because they speak both languages pretty well
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Obie,
You make some incorrect assumptions and do not see the point.
Teachers and pilots are both professionals working away from direct supervision. Sure, the consequences of a mistake may be higher in the airline world, but the basic working situation has parallels. There are both good professional teachers and pilots, and ones who are less so.
Oh, and if you think they speak good English here, you have never spent time in East Asia away from airports or hotels!!
You make some incorrect assumptions and do not see the point.
Teachers and pilots are both professionals working away from direct supervision. Sure, the consequences of a mistake may be higher in the airline world, but the basic working situation has parallels. There are both good professional teachers and pilots, and ones who are less so.
Oh, and if you think they speak good English here, you have never spent time in East Asia away from airports or hotels!!
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qwerty ....
"If you can't see the difference you are a bloody fool. The FDR is there to monitor the way I fly the aircraft. I fly it in accordance with the SOPs and Airbus limitations and expect the F/O to do the same."
If you chit chat on the approach then you aren't flying in accordance with SOPs and should have your a*s kicked before you do in a planeload.
qwerty ....
"I DO NOT expect to have all conversations I have monitored by management."
Not now, but perhaps your expectations will change in the future. If you can't handle that, go find another line of work.
qwerty ....
"If I or my F/O want to discuss any aspect of the company in the cruise, or any other matter, I think it is reasonable."
You seem to have forgotten what it is that we are discussing here. Very sad.
qwerty .....
"Increase saftey? Yea course it will. CVR C/B Off!!"
Followed soon I would hope by,
"Here's a list of potential alternative employers - good luck to you, and don't forget to take your flight bag with you on the way out."
"If you can't see the difference you are a bloody fool. The FDR is there to monitor the way I fly the aircraft. I fly it in accordance with the SOPs and Airbus limitations and expect the F/O to do the same."
If you chit chat on the approach then you aren't flying in accordance with SOPs and should have your a*s kicked before you do in a planeload.
qwerty ....
"I DO NOT expect to have all conversations I have monitored by management."
Not now, but perhaps your expectations will change in the future. If you can't handle that, go find another line of work.
qwerty ....
"If I or my F/O want to discuss any aspect of the company in the cruise, or any other matter, I think it is reasonable."
You seem to have forgotten what it is that we are discussing here. Very sad.
qwerty .....
"Increase saftey? Yea course it will. CVR C/B Off!!"
Followed soon I would hope by,
"Here's a list of potential alternative employers - good luck to you, and don't forget to take your flight bag with you on the way out."
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Teach me
Your post 46 shows remarkable restraint - totally to be expected given your interesting and well argued post 43.
My background in some development flying in Indonesia where all my cockpit actions were videoed as well as recorded in traditional ways, made me feel very secure that in the event the aircraft (or those in any way responsible for it) let ME down then I had the evidence to show it was not my fault.
In my view the weaker and less competent the airline management (and the more there is an adversarial attitude between crews and company) the more useful it is to have full and open recording of events in order to protect a competent crew.
JF
Your post 46 shows remarkable restraint - totally to be expected given your interesting and well argued post 43.
My background in some development flying in Indonesia where all my cockpit actions were videoed as well as recorded in traditional ways, made me feel very secure that in the event the aircraft (or those in any way responsible for it) let ME down then I had the evidence to show it was not my fault.
In my view the weaker and less competent the airline management (and the more there is an adversarial attitude between crews and company) the more useful it is to have full and open recording of events in order to protect a competent crew.
JF
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..... and the weaker and less competent the flight crew, the more resistant one expects them to be to the idea of monitoring their cockpit performance in critical phases of flight.
Some posts on this thread tell me all I need to know about the attitude of some towards enhanced safety measures in the cockpit. Yes, I feel strongly about this issue. For one, 49 people died in Lexington because those bozos acted like a couple of kids on a joyride. Quite apart from their total disregard for the regs relating to cockpit behavior, they didn't even have the wit to speak to tower about the surprising spectacle in front of them. One of them is still alive and blaming everyone else for his criminal lack of professionalism. People like this should be detected by any means possible and given their marching orders. IMO the more we know about what's going on in the cockpit the better. What do pilots of integrity have to fear?
Well posted Farley.
Some posts on this thread tell me all I need to know about the attitude of some towards enhanced safety measures in the cockpit. Yes, I feel strongly about this issue. For one, 49 people died in Lexington because those bozos acted like a couple of kids on a joyride. Quite apart from their total disregard for the regs relating to cockpit behavior, they didn't even have the wit to speak to tower about the surprising spectacle in front of them. One of them is still alive and blaming everyone else for his criminal lack of professionalism. People like this should be detected by any means possible and given their marching orders. IMO the more we know about what's going on in the cockpit the better. What do pilots of integrity have to fear?
Well posted Farley.
Trash du Blanc
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If you don't know the difference between conversation in the chocks and conversation while in motion you don't belong on this board.
Yes, they screwed up. But your description is an insane exaggeration.
Yes, they screwed up. But your description is an insane exaggeration.
Trash du Blanc
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I went back and looked - for all to read, here is the sum total of the non-pertinent conversation that took place in Lexington after the aircraft was moving under its own power:
And it's entirely possible they were sitting still while this conversation took place......
06:03:16.4 HOT-2 yeah, I know three guys at Kennedy. actually two guys uh.... @@ he went but he didn't get past the sim.
06:03:26.7 HOT-1 oh, really.
06:03:29.1 HOT-2 and then um, a First Officer from Cinci....
06:03:35.1 HOT-2 got through the second part....
06:03:37.2 HOT-2 what do you do the uh, these tests.... and he didn't, and that's as far as he got.
06:03:49.3 HOT-2 and then @@ he actually got offered the position.
06:03:54.5 HOT-1 did he take it or....
06:03:55.5 HOT-2 yeah.
06:03:56.1 HOT-1 ah, okay.
06:03:26.7 HOT-1 oh, really.
06:03:29.1 HOT-2 and then um, a First Officer from Cinci....
06:03:35.1 HOT-2 got through the second part....
06:03:37.2 HOT-2 what do you do the uh, these tests.... and he didn't, and that's as far as he got.
06:03:49.3 HOT-2 and then @@ he actually got offered the position.
06:03:54.5 HOT-1 did he take it or....
06:03:55.5 HOT-2 yeah.
06:03:56.1 HOT-1 ah, okay.
And it's entirely possible they were sitting still while this conversation took place......
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Insane exaggeration? So you are suggesting that conversation in the chocks in preparation for a flight is irrelevant to flight safety? An interesting theory, I hope your employers are aware of your attitude. By implication you are defending the behavior of our two heroes on that night takeoff attempt (wrong runway). IIRC one of them fired up the wrong bird at first. I'd love to see the bit of videotape showing his reaction when he was told by ground staff that he was in the wrong plane - the tapes would start as soon as your a** was putting pressure on the seat btw.
OK, so not ALL professionals pilots are the sharpest knives in the drawer, but I would hope that many can see the safety advantages of continuous cockpit recordings, audio and video, as a tool to more thoroughly investigate accidents after the fact as well as near-accidents and major deviations revealed by data we already have. Not to mention to randomly sample pilots, the vast majority of whom I'm confident are doing a splendid and highly professional job. To criticize this as a "violation of privacy rights" or some such rubbish reveals much about the mentality behind that particular yoke.
I've only ever had responsibility for three passengers' lives as a pilot but I can tell you that I'd never behave in the manner that certain pilots appear to be comfortable with in preparing for an ILS approach. I tell my pax to STFU if I need to, perhaps a few of you guys need to learn to do the same with your colleagues up front.
This is an excellent thread, revealing as it does the opinions of some. Naturally one wonders how many others.
OK, so not ALL professionals pilots are the sharpest knives in the drawer, but I would hope that many can see the safety advantages of continuous cockpit recordings, audio and video, as a tool to more thoroughly investigate accidents after the fact as well as near-accidents and major deviations revealed by data we already have. Not to mention to randomly sample pilots, the vast majority of whom I'm confident are doing a splendid and highly professional job. To criticize this as a "violation of privacy rights" or some such rubbish reveals much about the mentality behind that particular yoke.
I've only ever had responsibility for three passengers' lives as a pilot but I can tell you that I'd never behave in the manner that certain pilots appear to be comfortable with in preparing for an ILS approach. I tell my pax to STFU if I need to, perhaps a few of you guys need to learn to do the same with your colleagues up front.
This is an excellent thread, revealing as it does the opinions of some. Naturally one wonders how many others.
Trash du Blanc
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You're out of your depth. BUF and LEX are apples and oranges.
No excuse for the behavior in BUF. But LEX was a different animal, and dismissing the crew as clowns throws away the very real safety gains to be made from the lessons of that accident.
I flew RJ's into Lexington at a previous carrier. I trained with/knew many Comair guys. Trust me, if a mistake like LEX can happen to Comair it can happen to anyone.
And firing up the wrong aircraft? You think they did that by accident? Tail swaps happen all the time.
I'll spare you any chest beating but trust me, my employers know my opinions all too well - a function of my position, you see....
No excuse for the behavior in BUF. But LEX was a different animal, and dismissing the crew as clowns throws away the very real safety gains to be made from the lessons of that accident.
I flew RJ's into Lexington at a previous carrier. I trained with/knew many Comair guys. Trust me, if a mistake like LEX can happen to Comair it can happen to anyone.
And firing up the wrong aircraft? You think they did that by accident? Tail swaps happen all the time.
I'll spare you any chest beating but trust me, my employers know my opinions all too well - a function of my position, you see....
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Fair enough, and I'm not equating the two as closely as all that. My point is of course that audio + video recordings in that instance would reveal much more than what we know now about the condition of those two pilots, who are not clowns exactly but rather mass killers of their trusting passengers. Are you familiar with the legal concept of criminal negligence? They violated numerous cockpit procedures as I'm sure you know, and I for one would like to see and hear it all. More so were I a relative or friend of one of the dead. RIP.
I agree with you that we need to learn as much as possible from each tragedy. That's why I'm arguing for continuous recordings, responsibly monitored of course. I understand your concerns about inappropriate monitoring but that's a separate issue and one that the unions can rightly focus on after the installation.
Think of it this way: how much more would we know about what was going on in that cockpit (Buffalo) if we could view a continuous video of events chock-to-explosion? I suspect at least some of the mystery would be solved, particularly with respect to fatigue which is a major issue in current discussion.
hmmm, I'm thinking maybe two cameras, one aimed left and one aimed right. Don't forget to tighten the knot on your tie before entering, and keep a comb in your top pocket at all times .......
I agree with you that we need to learn as much as possible from each tragedy. That's why I'm arguing for continuous recordings, responsibly monitored of course. I understand your concerns about inappropriate monitoring but that's a separate issue and one that the unions can rightly focus on after the installation.
Think of it this way: how much more would we know about what was going on in that cockpit (Buffalo) if we could view a continuous video of events chock-to-explosion? I suspect at least some of the mystery would be solved, particularly with respect to fatigue which is a major issue in current discussion.
hmmm, I'm thinking maybe two cameras, one aimed left and one aimed right. Don't forget to tighten the knot on your tie before entering, and keep a comb in your top pocket at all times .......
Trash du Blanc
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A video addition to CVR data would not be a bad idea.
As long as the "privacy" rules of CVR's apply.
And there is never, never any chance of the footage going public.
For what it's worth I was torn up over the Lexington crash. I am horrified by the fact that I can see something like happening - just a little bit of complacency / overfamiliarity, combined with the stress of your company going bankrupt, your family (with small children) in your hotel room during a layover, some taxi closures and changes.... I cannot demonize that crew. Plenty of us could have at least travelled partway down that path.
As for Buffalo, if a shaker makes you pull hard on the yoke, you probably shouldn't have been typed....
As long as the "privacy" rules of CVR's apply.
And there is never, never any chance of the footage going public.
For what it's worth I was torn up over the Lexington crash. I am horrified by the fact that I can see something like happening - just a little bit of complacency / overfamiliarity, combined with the stress of your company going bankrupt, your family (with small children) in your hotel room during a layover, some taxi closures and changes.... I cannot demonize that crew. Plenty of us could have at least travelled partway down that path.
As for Buffalo, if a shaker makes you pull hard on the yoke, you probably shouldn't have been typed....
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SDFlyer - "Methinks he doth protest too much". I am always a little alarmed by people who feel so strongly on a particular issue that they want to threaten people with being fired for disagreeing with them. You have not grasped the issues here - you are proposing a fundamental shift in the way things are done, which is radically different from current practice. There are all sorts of things discussed behind flight deck doors that should remain private conversations. The current arrangement is totally adequate - we have allowed CVR conversations to be made available in the event of an accident. We simply cannot have our private conversations made available to management because they want to know what we are talking about. No employer would insist on private conversations between employees in a factory or office being randomly sampled to see if they were working correctly or talking about last night's football game. It would rightly be considered an infringement of their civil liberties. Unless there is an overwhelming need to review those conversations following an incident or accident, there can be no real justification for hearing them routinely.
Also, John Farley's view is not one I can endorse. You cannot compare the test flying world (in which I spent several years myself), where specific testing and analysis is taking place, with a day-to-day working environment that people spend 30+ years of their lives in. The routine monitoring of conversations "just in case" is simply not acceptable in a free society and there can be no justification for it. We should not even entertain such a possibility - simply because there are such people as SDFlyer out there who are so zealous in their pursuit of 'lesser' pilots than himself. Well done ALPA.
Also, John Farley's view is not one I can endorse. You cannot compare the test flying world (in which I spent several years myself), where specific testing and analysis is taking place, with a day-to-day working environment that people spend 30+ years of their lives in. The routine monitoring of conversations "just in case" is simply not acceptable in a free society and there can be no justification for it. We should not even entertain such a possibility - simply because there are such people as SDFlyer out there who are so zealous in their pursuit of 'lesser' pilots than himself. Well done ALPA.
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"Zealot", this thread gets more entertaining by the minute.
No, I do not consider myself a more accomplished pilot than you guys, far from it. Not my chosen profession. You have clearly badly missed my point, and my motivation.
But you had better hope I'm not chit-chatting with my pal when I get the (VFR) clearance from the tower at CRQ (south of the localizer, RWY heading), "make left 270, number 2 behind the Brazilia on 4 mile final, cleared to land RWY 24, caution wake turbulence". Sometimes there's a Citation or a Lear east of ESCON at that time as well. You're mixin' with me, like it or not
..
btw, I don't consider the off-topic talk to be a major factor in THIS accident, but I think we're agreed it has been one in others, are we not?
No, I do not consider myself a more accomplished pilot than you guys, far from it. Not my chosen profession. You have clearly badly missed my point, and my motivation.
But you had better hope I'm not chit-chatting with my pal when I get the (VFR) clearance from the tower at CRQ (south of the localizer, RWY heading), "make left 270, number 2 behind the Brazilia on 4 mile final, cleared to land RWY 24, caution wake turbulence". Sometimes there's a Citation or a Lear east of ESCON at that time as well. You're mixin' with me, like it or not
..btw, I don't consider the off-topic talk to be a major factor in THIS accident, but I think we're agreed it has been one in others, are we not?
Last edited by SDFlyer; 19th May 2009 at 17:20.
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CVR monitoring, I am totally FOR it.
CVR monitoring by any level of airline managment, I am totally AGAINST it.
CVR monitoring by an indipendent 3rd party who is able to contact the crew concerned and bring big violations to their attention, I am totally FOR it.
Lets say the 3rd party is an indipendent union safety rep possibly afiliated with a different carrier.
Lets say that union rep also has a steadfast system in place to shield the identity of any crews he speaks to.
Lets say that airline management may only be informed when a crew has repeatedly violated the sterile cockpit rule (say 3 times) in a big way.
Lets say that our monitoring union guy is only able to action any single CVR "event" if it is considerable (I too agree that a very small number of verbal "prods" can serve as a check on the other guy who is up there with you), thus protecting the crew from a b*****ing for simply slating "the ATC F**kers here for giving us a RW change AGAIN!!!".
Yes, if it were to work like this then I am totally FOR CVR monitoring. Why would anyone not be?
RIX
CVR monitoring by any level of airline managment, I am totally AGAINST it.
CVR monitoring by an indipendent 3rd party who is able to contact the crew concerned and bring big violations to their attention, I am totally FOR it.
Lets say the 3rd party is an indipendent union safety rep possibly afiliated with a different carrier.
Lets say that union rep also has a steadfast system in place to shield the identity of any crews he speaks to.
Lets say that airline management may only be informed when a crew has repeatedly violated the sterile cockpit rule (say 3 times) in a big way.
Lets say that our monitoring union guy is only able to action any single CVR "event" if it is considerable (I too agree that a very small number of verbal "prods" can serve as a check on the other guy who is up there with you), thus protecting the crew from a b*****ing for simply slating "the ATC F**kers here for giving us a RW change AGAIN!!!".
Yes, if it were to work like this then I am totally FOR CVR monitoring. Why would anyone not be?
RIX
Fear.... That all you discussed in the cruise or otherwise, may be reported in full detail in tomorrow mornings newspaper! So you could never discuss anything confidential, or marginally illegal, without it possibly becoming public knowledge.
All the safety theories here are perfectly sensible, except the one fact, that once the recording is off the aircraft, it is available to be leaked to all and sundry! Or subpoenaed by the tax department, to disclose that foreign investment you forgot to mention.
And from a practicality point of view, just how many 'investigators' would have to be employed to listen to all these hours of conversations? Never happen. No airline will pay that much for any little increase in safety.
All the safety theories here are perfectly sensible, except the one fact, that once the recording is off the aircraft, it is available to be leaked to all and sundry! Or subpoenaed by the tax department, to disclose that foreign investment you forgot to mention.
And from a practicality point of view, just how many 'investigators' would have to be employed to listen to all these hours of conversations? Never happen. No airline will pay that much for any little increase in safety.
Last edited by goeasy; 19th May 2009 at 19:07.
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Why not restrict your talk of foreign investments, personal dalliances, union politics and the like to times when you aren't in the cockpit or otherwise in front of a mike?
Is that so difficult?
To compensate for the appalling loss of privacy involved (ahem ..), IIWY I'd insist that all airlines provide a guaranteed unbugged, soundproof space for their staff to chat in.
hehehehehehehe
[OK, now I'm just playing with y'all....]
RIX: some sensible suggestions IMO, and clearly access to the data should be very rigorously controlled.
Is that so difficult?
To compensate for the appalling loss of privacy involved (ahem ..), IIWY I'd insist that all airlines provide a guaranteed unbugged, soundproof space for their staff to chat in.
hehehehehehehe
[OK, now I'm just playing with y'all....
]RIX: some sensible suggestions IMO, and clearly access to the data should be very rigorously controlled.