Indonesian BAe146 crash
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Because it is by far the most likely explanation?
The 146 is pretty nimble in confined spaces, even with an engine out, compared to most other jets. That, combined with the accident record of the 146 - there has never been an accident involving loss of life that was due to a mechanical or structural failure - lends even more credence to the CFIT theory. Not that we should jump to conclusions of course...
The 146 is pretty nimble in confined spaces, even with an engine out, compared to most other jets. That, combined with the accident record of the 146 - there has never been an accident involving loss of life that was due to a mechanical or structural failure - lends even more credence to the CFIT theory. Not that we should jump to conclusions of course...
Why are some of the instant experts here so sure of the C in CFIT?
Since 2000 in Papua there have been 5 CFIT accidents (only counting aircraft Twin Otter size and below), and still the same casual factors that lead to those accidents are still in play today.
Another BAe 146 is on the way to Sentani as the Sentani-Wamena run was profitable, I sincerely hope that this one lasts until its parked up - in one piece.
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Enderby-Browne:
Why the snippy use of "instant experts"? I was just applying logic and experience to the reported information. I may be wrong - I'd be the first to admit it if good evidence to the contrary emerges - but CFIT does seem to be most likely. And I doubt if anyone on this forum would seriously suggest that a Pprune posting implied that an AAIB investigation was redundant. That would be very silly, wouldn't it? But every time that a Ppruner dares to post a theory or suggestion for the cause of an accident before any report is published, there is some Angry of Tunbridge Wells bursting to flay the hide from our body. Calm down, it's only a Forum.
Why the snippy use of "instant experts"? I was just applying logic and experience to the reported information. I may be wrong - I'd be the first to admit it if good evidence to the contrary emerges - but CFIT does seem to be most likely. And I doubt if anyone on this forum would seriously suggest that a Pprune posting implied that an AAIB investigation was redundant. That would be very silly, wouldn't it? But every time that a Ppruner dares to post a theory or suggestion for the cause of an accident before any report is published, there is some Angry of Tunbridge Wells bursting to flay the hide from our body. Calm down, it's only a Forum.
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Was it not "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells"?
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Report extract
1.11 Medical and Pathological Information
The flight crew were examined for identification purposes, but no pathology or toxicology examinations were conducted.
The flight crew were examined for identification purposes, but no pathology or toxicology examinations were conducted.
DB
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Why not?
Just continue reading, and only a couple of inches further down it says:
2 CONCLUSION
The investigation is continuing and will include the meteorological conditions; Advisory Flight Information Service; weight and balance and certification information relating to the passenger/freight cabin reconfiguration of the aircraft; flight operations procedures leading up to the time of the accident; and pathology and toxicology issues in accordance with ICAO Annex 13.
The investigation is continuing and will include the meteorological conditions; Advisory Flight Information Service; weight and balance and certification information relating to the passenger/freight cabin reconfiguration of the aircraft; flight operations procedures leading up to the time of the accident; and pathology and toxicology issues in accordance with ICAO Annex 13.
Dream Buster see Annex 13.
More details given in ICAO Doc 6920 AN/855/4 Manual of Aircraft Accident Investigation.
Based on the concluding remarks, we might assume that EGPWS was serviceable and thus provided warnings. In the situation described (ref to Google Earth) the alert period would have been quite lengthy. Thus, why didn’t the crew respond? Or if they did, why was it too late or insufficient to clear the ridge?
A visual circuit / circling procedure (i.a.w. a published procedure or not) should still be flown visually. If the aircraft is judged as going to enter cloud, or inadvertently does so then there should be an immediate pull up.
There are some similarities with other incidents where crews failed to respond correctly, in these events there were mistakes in awareness and visual illusions; did the crew in this accident have an illusion of invulnerability?
More details given in ICAO Doc 6920 AN/855/4 Manual of Aircraft Accident Investigation.
Based on the concluding remarks, we might assume that EGPWS was serviceable and thus provided warnings. In the situation described (ref to Google Earth) the alert period would have been quite lengthy. Thus, why didn’t the crew respond? Or if they did, why was it too late or insufficient to clear the ridge?
A visual circuit / circling procedure (i.a.w. a published procedure or not) should still be flown visually. If the aircraft is judged as going to enter cloud, or inadvertently does so then there should be an immediate pull up.
There are some similarities with other incidents where crews failed to respond correctly, in these events there were mistakes in awareness and visual illusions; did the crew in this accident have an illusion of invulnerability?
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Another bloody CFIT *sigh*
Don't know about other "jungle" destinations around but there wasn't any problem to buy a ticket to Wamena and back.
Anyways, on the rumour mill is that the aircraft's speed was high during the turn to base, and went past the centerline and couldn't get away from that hill... whether it's true or not, it's a different story....
PK-KAR
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Are you aware of what "in accordance with ICAO Annex 13 " means ?
5.9 The State conducting the investigation into a fatal
accident shall arrange for complete autopsy examination of
fatally injured flight crew and, subject to the particular
circumstances, of fatally injured passengers and cabin
attendants, by a pathologist, preferably experienced in accident
investigation. These examinations shall be expeditious and
complete.
Note.— Guidance material related to autopsies is provided in detail in the
Manual of Civil Aviation Medicine
(Doc 8984) and the Manual of Aircraft Accident Investigationaccident shall arrange for complete autopsy examination of
fatally injured flight crew and, subject to the particular
circumstances, of fatally injured passengers and cabin
attendants, by a pathologist, preferably experienced in accident
investigation. These examinations shall be expeditious and
complete.
Note.— Guidance material related to autopsies is provided in detail in the
Manual of Civil Aviation Medicine
(Doc 6920), the former containing detailed guidance on toxicological testing
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Did someone say CFIT ?
CVR indicated that the copilot instructed the PIC “overshoot,
overshoot” after the second of the five ‘WHOOP WHOOP, PULL UP’
sounds. The FDR showed that the aircraft commenced a go around from
a low height above the runway. The controller offered the crew a choice
of a landing on runway 33, but the crew elected to make a right circuit
for runway 15.
The circuit was flown at a height of between 150 and 350 feet above the
aerodrome elevation.
The CVR provided evidence that during the downwind leg the EGPWS
fitted to the aircraft provided the flight crew with eight ‘DON’T SINK’
and one ‘TOO LOW TERRAIN’ voice aural alerts. The flight crew did
not respond to any of those alerts.
The Operator’s BAe-146 Flight Simulator Training Program
The operator’s BAe-146 Flight Simulator Training Program for the
flight crew did not cover training and checking of pilot actions and
responses to the EGPWS aural alerts and warnings.
Thank you GBV
overshoot” after the second of the five ‘WHOOP WHOOP, PULL UP’
sounds. The FDR showed that the aircraft commenced a go around from
a low height above the runway. The controller offered the crew a choice
of a landing on runway 33, but the crew elected to make a right circuit
for runway 15.
The circuit was flown at a height of between 150 and 350 feet above the
aerodrome elevation.
The CVR provided evidence that during the downwind leg the EGPWS
fitted to the aircraft provided the flight crew with eight ‘DON’T SINK’
and one ‘TOO LOW TERRAIN’ voice aural alerts. The flight crew did
not respond to any of those alerts.
The Operator’s BAe-146 Flight Simulator Training Program
The operator’s BAe-146 Flight Simulator Training Program for the
flight crew did not cover training and checking of pilot actions and
responses to the EGPWS aural alerts and warnings.
Thank you GBV
Last edited by Teddy Robinson; 23rd Dec 2009 at 23:34.
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I was wondering about conversion of this airframe, because I never heard about 146 Combi before. Althouth nothing to do with the accident in question, still interesting...
During the investigation it was determined that the aircraft manufacturer
had not issued a manufacturer-approved modification for a combined
passenger and cargo version of the aircraft type.
Shall anybody call DGAC and advise about some other aircraft types there having similar in-house "conversion"?
During the investigation it was determined that the aircraft manufacturer
had not issued a manufacturer-approved modification for a combined
passenger and cargo version of the aircraft type.
Shall anybody call DGAC and advise about some other aircraft types there having similar in-house "conversion"?
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To test or to ignore?
I'm not at all surprised that no pathology or toxicological tests were made.
In 2006 UCL (University College London UK) tested 27 BAe 146 and B 757 pilots and found they all had highly abnormal amounts of toxic chemicals in their blood / fat and measurable cognitive dysfunction.
http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/do...ne%20paper.pdf
Would you look for the vital clue that would explain a fatal accident - If the results were inconvenient. Perhaps they forgot?
Cover up and they know it - but how do they continue to get away with it?
DB
In 2006 UCL (University College London UK) tested 27 BAe 146 and B 757 pilots and found they all had highly abnormal amounts of toxic chemicals in their blood / fat and measurable cognitive dysfunction.
http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/do...ne%20paper.pdf
Would you look for the vital clue that would explain a fatal accident - If the results were inconvenient. Perhaps they forgot?
Cover up and they know it - but how do they continue to get away with it?
DB
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Circuit flown at 150 - 350' AGL immediately after a missed approach...
Recipe for disaster... they overshot the centerline and the Capt. appears to have been caught with a little confusion... the 2 hills are supposed to be to his left in the turn to final, but ended up being caught between the 2... with no sight of the runway (blocked by the 2nd hill, which they flew into). But then, I wasn't there...
Well, there's the F-28 converted to cargo by Gatari... operates (or planned to) the same route as the Aviastar 146. For Wamena... anything imported from outside the valley gets flown in!
What would be needed for the test? Wamena is pretty remote by our standards, and I wouldn't be surprised if the hospital would run out of certain stuff on a regular basis... but yes, it would have been better with...
Unfortunately, the culture here seems to resist post mortem examination, unless it was a crime scene.
Recipe for disaster... they overshot the centerline and the Capt. appears to have been caught with a little confusion... the 2 hills are supposed to be to his left in the turn to final, but ended up being caught between the 2... with no sight of the runway (blocked by the 2nd hill, which they flew into). But then, I wasn't there...
Shall anybody call DGAC and advise about some other aircraft types there having similar in-house "conversion"?
Would you look for the vital clue that would explain a fatal accident - If the results were inconvenient. Perhaps they forgot?
Unfortunately, the culture here seems to resist post mortem examination, unless it was a crime scene.
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Not the only culture to resist a thorough Post Mortem
PK- KAR,
It would be totally wrong to suggest that The Indonesians are the only culture that resists a thorough post mortem of the crew following a fatal accident - as the rest of the world does exactly the same - as little as they can get away with.
Even the so called 'First world' of the UK?
That's the whole point. And still they get away with it....
DB
It would be totally wrong to suggest that The Indonesians are the only culture that resists a thorough post mortem of the crew following a fatal accident - as the rest of the world does exactly the same - as little as they can get away with.
Even the so called 'First world' of the UK?
That's the whole point. And still they get away with it....
DB