Jail and 10-year ban for Thomson pilot!
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Save Your Pixels
Those of you whose posts have disappeared from this thread and are about to fire a 'What do you think you're doing?' PM at the moderators can put away your keyboards. They were deleted because they were turning this into another pilots/drink thread.
There is already another such thread running, feel free to post there. This thread is about a single case and will stay that way.
Duck
There is already another such thread running, feel free to post there. This thread is about a single case and will stay that way.
Duck
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Staying on topic ( I hope 
) it is a rather 
up society that thinks that putting a professional guy in jail for 6 months because he misjudged ( or perhaps had another medical problem that altered ) the time required to expel alcohol from his system.
For God sake , he was hardly what you could call pi$$ed was he? Surely the only thing that really matters is whether he has a problem with the juice, or whether this was a one-off miscalculation. Perhaps not his first "misjudgement" I admit, and prior to this he had been lucky, but in any case the guy needs help or his ear bent, hardly worthy of 6 months porridge.
Firefly Bob, if you look at the list of "disqualifying offences " published by the DoT it will open your eyes, forgot to pay your petrol on the way home from a 12hr duty starting at awful o'clock ? Bye Bye airside pass. . . . pathetic. No relation between that and an affinity to Al Quieda,(sp?) but well, in this screwed up country that issued our passport who cares ?
Thank God I was young when I was , and no longer have anything to do with living in "politically correct Blighty". My chance of staying a free man would be marginal at best.
As previously mentioned, a world of difference between this case , and the recent one where "yer man" was supported by his company ( Oh no Sir, not in the UK please ) and was to be hopefully re-instated following counselling.
We used to be able to lay claim to being an enlightened tolerant nation. For fear of immediate removal of my post I will not express my considered opinion of the current state of play in respect of the YOO Kay
) it is a rather up society that thinks that putting a professional guy in jail for 6 months because he misjudged ( or perhaps had another medical problem that altered ) the time required to expel alcohol from his system.For God sake , he was hardly what you could call pi$$ed was he? Surely the only thing that really matters is whether he has a problem with the juice, or whether this was a one-off miscalculation. Perhaps not his first "misjudgement" I admit, and prior to this he had been lucky, but in any case the guy needs help or his ear bent, hardly worthy of 6 months porridge.
Firefly Bob, if you look at the list of "disqualifying offences " published by the DoT it will open your eyes, forgot to pay your petrol on the way home from a 12hr duty starting at awful o'clock ? Bye Bye airside pass. . . . pathetic. No relation between that and an affinity to Al Quieda,(sp?) but well, in this screwed up country that issued our passport who cares ?
Thank God I was young when I was , and no longer have anything to do with living in "politically correct Blighty". My chance of staying a free man would be marginal at best.
As previously mentioned, a world of difference between this case , and the recent one where "yer man" was supported by his company ( Oh no Sir, not in the UK please ) and was to be hopefully re-instated following counselling.
We used to be able to lay claim to being an enlightened tolerant nation. For fear of immediate removal of my post I will not express my considered opinion of the current state of play in respect of the YOO Kay
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Protesting against Patrick Kyagera's 10 year ban is valid, because this is not an issue that has an "appropriate" deterrent. It's not linear like casual drinking and road use, where there is enough evidence to suggest that you can set a level of punishment that "fits" the crime and that provides a severe enough deterrent to change behaviour in the 95% of the population. In the aviation case you have already got that 95% (probably 99%) compliance simply because of the threat of loss of livelihood. You are mostly ONLY dealing with the problem drinkers.
I dont know whether Kyagera is an habitual drinker, or made a one-off silly mistake, or is one of the 5-10% of people (like the Japanese) that produce low levels of alcohol dehydrogenase - the enzyme that breaks down alcohol. But its likely that he would know that he might have been over the limit: its a fundamental criteria for your job as a pilot and you need to know your individual tolerance and limits much as you would know whether your vision needs correcting with glasses.
All the many pilots that I know take their fitness to work responsibilities very seriously. Clearly, a small minority are simply unable to change because they have a disease. A vanishingly small amount make a one off silly mistake or take a chance and get caught.
The length of sentence isnt the point because jailing or fining an alcoholic is about as much use as jailing or fining a paedophile: it doesnt affect the underlying behaviours. I dont have access to the full judgement but if it was simply as reported then it's awful - not because of the 6 months jail or 10 year ban, but because there is no opportunity to address the underlying behaviours and get on with your career if you are serious about reform and get the support you need.
Lyle Prouse and others have shown that it is possible (see the other thread Duck referred to).
By the way, I am very disturbed to see that many of you think that alcohol is eliminated by the body at more or less a standard rate. That is scary and untrue. It depends on gender, race, body mass, fat/lean tissue ratio, genetics, food quantity and type intake and habituation - which is why your pilot medical blood test usually includes Gamma-Glutamyl Transferase (GGT or 'Gamma GT') - an indication of longer-term liver abuse by alcohol. The rate at which you excrete alcohol can vary massively.
I dont know whether Kyagera is an habitual drinker, or made a one-off silly mistake, or is one of the 5-10% of people (like the Japanese) that produce low levels of alcohol dehydrogenase - the enzyme that breaks down alcohol. But its likely that he would know that he might have been over the limit: its a fundamental criteria for your job as a pilot and you need to know your individual tolerance and limits much as you would know whether your vision needs correcting with glasses.
All the many pilots that I know take their fitness to work responsibilities very seriously. Clearly, a small minority are simply unable to change because they have a disease. A vanishingly small amount make a one off silly mistake or take a chance and get caught.
The length of sentence isnt the point because jailing or fining an alcoholic is about as much use as jailing or fining a paedophile: it doesnt affect the underlying behaviours. I dont have access to the full judgement but if it was simply as reported then it's awful - not because of the 6 months jail or 10 year ban, but because there is no opportunity to address the underlying behaviours and get on with your career if you are serious about reform and get the support you need.
Lyle Prouse and others have shown that it is possible (see the other thread Duck referred to).
By the way, I am very disturbed to see that many of you think that alcohol is eliminated by the body at more or less a standard rate. That is scary and untrue. It depends on gender, race, body mass, fat/lean tissue ratio, genetics, food quantity and type intake and habituation - which is why your pilot medical blood test usually includes Gamma-Glutamyl Transferase (GGT or 'Gamma GT') - an indication of longer-term liver abuse by alcohol. The rate at which you excrete alcohol can vary massively.
Last edited by Pinkman; 28th Mar 2009 at 22:08.
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There exists no reason to sympathize with this guy, he knew the rules, the standards, the law, the risks and the consequences.
That he is imprisoned and will never be given another chance to betray the trust of his employer, colleagues and passengers is a good outcome!
That he is imprisoned and will never be given another chance to betray the trust of his employer, colleagues and passengers is a good outcome!
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When you make a mistake or misjudgement (as you may well one day) I am sure we are all united in wishing you as sympathetic and understanding a response as you have displayed here.
In the meantime, enjoy your lonely sad little existence perched on your unyeilding unseeing little soapbox.
In the meantime, enjoy your lonely sad little existence perched on your unyeilding unseeing little soapbox.
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A life ruined for being 50% under the drink driving limit - equivalent to one pint of beer. How many of us can really castigate this poor bloke? The reality now for professional pilots is no alcohol at all - even some wine with your dinner, if you want to guarantee compliance with this 20mg rule. Think about it guys.......
I wish him good luck in his future.
I wish him good luck in his future.
Given the sentence, surely there must be more to this?
Busting the rules gets you fair & square, but six months porridge + 10yrs grounded? sounds like Texas/Kabul/Bejing etc
Realistically, his flying days are over IMHO.
The court transcripts will be interesting.
PS. pity Flying Lawyer is somewhat constrained, his insight would illuminate this issue.
Busting the rules gets you fair & square, but six months porridge + 10yrs grounded? sounds like Texas/Kabul/Bejing etc
Realistically, his flying days are over IMHO.
The court transcripts will be interesting.
PS. pity Flying Lawyer is somewhat constrained, his insight would illuminate this issue.
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In the meantime, enjoy your lonely sad little existence perched on your unyielding unseeing little soapbox.
Whilst the guy refused to take his professional responsibilities seriously, the accountability aspect may register with him.
"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime!"
Publicly complaining about how the guy should have been treated so much more leniently is unprofessional, he merits no reduction in either the term of imprisonment, nor flying ban duration.
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Given, as has been pointed out, that the limit appears to have been set as low as can be measured, and furthermore that any impairment to judgement is quite probably less than suffered by a pilot at the end of a "legal" but long duty, or indeed suffering from a heavy cold, I find it difficult to justify shoving this individual in jail for 6 mths.
If he has been proven to be a habitual offender, that is quite another matter, but for the moment I feel less lonely perched on my soapbox than perhaps you should.
If he has been proven to be a habitual offender, that is quite another matter, but for the moment I feel less lonely perched on my soapbox than perhaps you should.
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I think it is a little excessive - no injuries to anybody, another qualified pilot on the flight deck who can take over if there was any doubt etc, no malicious intent
This job is disintegrating as a career right in front of us - deteriorating T&C's, extra security hassle, huge investment at the start, bust at a moments notice. Not worth the hassle any more
Look at the destruction Fred Goodwin has done to us all, and he gets away with it
This job is disintegrating as a career right in front of us - deteriorating T&C's, extra security hassle, huge investment at the start, bust at a moments notice. Not worth the hassle any more
Look at the destruction Fred Goodwin has done to us all, and he gets away with it
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One of our Captains got caught at LHR in 2004. He was sentenced to 6 months in Ford Open Prison and served 2.
I dont think he lost his licence for any time other than the medical issues but he ended up unable to regain employment in aviation and now sells insurance for a living.
I dont think he lost his licence for any time other than the medical issues but he ended up unable to regain employment in aviation and now sells insurance for a living.
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CONDUCT OF PROSECUTIONS BY THE CAA AS A PROSECUTOR
Licence Action
Licensing action cannot properly be taken in order to punish the licence holder. If the law has been broken, the offender can only be punished by the Courts after a prosecution. Refusal, revocation, suspension or variation of a licence, certificate or approval may only be taken if the conduct of the person concerned is such that he does not meet the criteria for holding such a licence, certificate or approval.
Havn't read the entire thread but a 10 year ban must be a security issue given the above guidance from the CAA
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A bit more info here:Birmingham Post
Quote:
Quote:
The court heard Kyagera was preparing to take off at 8.30am on Monday, December 22, after drinking a “considerable amount of alcohol” at a family party on Saturday followed by several glasses of wine on Sunday.
A breath test showed 45 micrograms of alcohol in 100ml of breath, five times the 9mcg limit for pilots. A blood test at 11.45am revealed 42 milligrams in 100ml of blood, twice the 20mg limit.
A breath test showed 45 micrograms of alcohol in 100ml of breath, five times the 9mcg limit for pilots. A blood test at 11.45am revealed 42 milligrams in 100ml of blood, twice the 20mg limit.
The Civil Aviation Authority said it would withhold his pilot's security clearance for 10 years for breaching its regulations and having a criminal conviction.
There is punishment and then there is the utter destruction of someone and his family, the latter is wrong. I wonder, there must be some pilots out there who have lost their driving licence due to drink driving. If they managed to continue with their jobs albeit difficult because of the practicalities, but if they did, did they then get a 10 year ban by the CAA for having a criminal record?
It is a funny aspect of human nature how many people judge this man as a 'drunk' who had a big drink problem. Maybe he is, but that is not something that can be concluded from the evidence. He had a level of alcohol in his blood that, many on this forum would have if they went out with their family for sunday lunch, had a glass of wine, and then drove them home. It is a little like how we all sneer at athletes who are labled 'druggies' guilty of 'drug abuse' when the reality is that they had a substance in their blood from chewing on a strepsil.
I hope he is able to put his life back together.
Heli Cal
After you have finished being so happy that this man is languishing in jail,
I wonder if you could please start a thread titled 'How to be Perfect', we would all benefit so much from your advice, and I for one would be an eager reader. Thanks
Last edited by Roger Sofarover; 29th Mar 2009 at 11:45.
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Roger Sofarover,
Totally in agreement with your summary.
The Govt (via Transec) publishes a list of "disqualifying offences" which prohibit the issue of an airside pass, it is truly an eye opener, and indeed 50% or more of the offences listed could not by any stretch of the imagination, be linked to an increased "security risk".
There is an appeals procedure,however, given the general "jobsworth" mentality of the UK ,I wouldn't like to surmise what percentage of appeals are sucessful, I suspect fairly low.
Indeed, very callous to gloat on this poor guys circumstances, "Glass Houses" comes to mind.
When you look at some of the scumbags walking free from court every day this seems more than a little OTT, and how exactly is the poor guy supposed to be "rehabilitated" ( one of the oft stated aims of a custodial sentence ) when the denial of an airside pass is going to cost him his livelihood and profession for a very long time.
He has my very best wishes, those who wish to rejoice should truly hang their heads in shame.
Totally in agreement with your summary.
The Govt (via Transec) publishes a list of "disqualifying offences" which prohibit the issue of an airside pass, it is truly an eye opener, and indeed 50% or more of the offences listed could not by any stretch of the imagination, be linked to an increased "security risk".
There is an appeals procedure,however, given the general "jobsworth" mentality of the UK ,I wouldn't like to surmise what percentage of appeals are sucessful, I suspect fairly low.
Indeed, very callous to gloat on this poor guys circumstances, "Glass Houses" comes to mind.
When you look at some of the scumbags walking free from court every day this seems more than a little OTT, and how exactly is the poor guy supposed to be "rehabilitated" ( one of the oft stated aims of a custodial sentence ) when the denial of an airside pass is going to cost him his livelihood and profession for a very long time.
He has my very best wishes, those who wish to rejoice should truly hang their heads in shame.
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In this particular case the guy knew exactly what he was doing and he knew exactly what he was risking by doing it.
Every time he raised a glass of alcohol to his lips he knew what he was doing and when he was doing it.
He knew his rostered duty time and he knew when he reported for duty that he was taking a great big chance.
Six months in pokey is purely symbolic. Everyone knows that he will only serve a fraction of that time actually in prison and that he is likely to be sent to a comfy country hotel such as Ford Open "Prison".
The "10 year" thing is complete bolleaux, as we all know that it would be an extremely unwise airline employee who would hire somebody like this after a major conviction such as Kyagera's, either within or beyond 10 years from now.
Even a Ugandan or Kenyan airline wouldn't hire this guy, with his track record.
We all know that laws exist for the guidance of wise men and for the blind obedience of fools. Kyagera is a fool.
Every time he raised a glass of alcohol to his lips he knew what he was doing and when he was doing it.
He knew his rostered duty time and he knew when he reported for duty that he was taking a great big chance.
Six months in pokey is purely symbolic. Everyone knows that he will only serve a fraction of that time actually in prison and that he is likely to be sent to a comfy country hotel such as Ford Open "Prison".
The "10 year" thing is complete bolleaux, as we all know that it would be an extremely unwise airline employee who would hire somebody like this after a major conviction such as Kyagera's, either within or beyond 10 years from now.
Even a Ugandan or Kenyan airline wouldn't hire this guy, with his track record.
We all know that laws exist for the guidance of wise men and for the blind obedience of fools. Kyagera is a fool.
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Blind British "justice".
This surely is a case where the punishment does not fit the crime. The concept of rehabilitation or help for alcoholic issues does not seem to fit into the system of "justice" in this country. No societal good can come from ruining this man and his family.
There is little doubt that alcoholism is the dirty secret hidden under the airline corporate carpet. This kind of response by the law and some elements within the airline industry will only serve to push the issue further into the recesses as people with problems will diligently seek to cover their tracks with the overall result that the cause of aviation safety will not be improved.
The personal and family tragedies associated with alcoholism and alcohol abuse will continue unabated. We live in a doctrinaire society untrammelled by much intelligence or human compassion.
.
There is little doubt that alcoholism is the dirty secret hidden under the airline corporate carpet. This kind of response by the law and some elements within the airline industry will only serve to push the issue further into the recesses as people with problems will diligently seek to cover their tracks with the overall result that the cause of aviation safety will not be improved.
The personal and family tragedies associated with alcoholism and alcohol abuse will continue unabated. We live in a doctrinaire society untrammelled by much intelligence or human compassion.
.
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The lessons to be learned
So what can be learned from all of this?
- It seems flying and drinking are (legally) incompatible. So to be on the safe side: give up the juice if you want to keep flying. Might be a hard decision to make for some licensed pilots both pro's and weekend warriors such as me
- As a professional group you'd better make sure you are fully aware of your legal position and the possible consequences. It seems to me this should be one of the main goals of your professional organizations such as BALPA. In other words: once it is in the law there is not much you can do so make sure the things you don't like don't get turned into a law! Where does that seemingly ridiculous low alcohol limit come from? Who proposed/approved this? This again underlines you have to keep a watchful eye on the legislator. If you don't you will suffer the consequences. If you let politicians rule your life this is what you will get.