UA pilot falls foul of idiotically low UK alcohol law
I regularly drink and drive.Let me qualify that,I have either two pints of 3.6% beer or a half bottle of wine with a full meal over a three hour period. Given my size (6'2 16stone) that most likely means that when I drive I am around half the 80mg limit,leaving a large margin for error.
When I drive in this condition I am aware that I am judgement impaired.This doesn't mean dangerous because on those occasions I drive more slowly and carefully and am aware of my lower limitations.
I have taken part in competitive motorsport.If I took to a racetrack in this condition I would be unable to replicate my cold sober performance.I would either have to settle for two or three seconda a lap slower or I would make an error and spin off.
Flying isn't the same.If you try to drink and fly there is a very good chance that something much worse will happen.20mg is sensible as long as you leave that same margin for error,effectively half a pint or a small glass of wine or a single measure.
When I drive in this condition I am aware that I am judgement impaired.This doesn't mean dangerous because on those occasions I drive more slowly and carefully and am aware of my lower limitations.
I have taken part in competitive motorsport.If I took to a racetrack in this condition I would be unable to replicate my cold sober performance.I would either have to settle for two or three seconda a lap slower or I would make an error and spin off.
Flying isn't the same.If you try to drink and fly there is a very good chance that something much worse will happen.20mg is sensible as long as you leave that same margin for error,effectively half a pint or a small glass of wine or a single measure.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some number of years ago I worked for the met dealing with driving offences, including drink drive. We had the old intoximeter in the station, and one lunch we went to the pub (as norm) and after 2 pints of the black stuff (4.1%) came back and did the test. It went straight to green, so therefore I will drink 1-2 pints of equivilant and drive. If the law was zero,then I wouldn't touch a drop. I spoke to a retired chap a few weeks ago who was involved in this drink fly issue with his old company. He said that the 20mg was the limit, but that is the lowest reading the machine can register. Could anyone tell me if that's correct?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Orstarayyyleea
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He said that the 20mg was the limit, but that is the lowest reading the machine can register. Could anyone tell me if that's correct?
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will sound ike a killoy - which I am not. But the message here is simple.
If your job depends on it , why get into that grey area between zero and just under the limit? Duty rosters are such that you do get plenty of down time when you can enjoy a drink along with your mates. But, if you can't plan ahead sufficiently well as to avoid reporting for duty with any alcohol in your bloodstream then you either have a problem or you don't care.
Actually, in 99% of cases I would expect most professionals to demonstrate capability to fly an aircraft even when over the limit and at the limit for driving - albeit impaired. This doen't justify anything.
If you are being paid for your professional skills and judgement then please don't expect any leeway if you turn up with these abilities in any way impaired through use of alcohol or drugs. It is not fair to anyone else.
Hopefully this is urban myth but I heard a story about a senior F/O who had a night on the tiles in HK. His crew had to smuggle him onboard the next day and he didn't actually 'surface' until the flight was airborne - I hope these days are well in the past and doubt that such nonsense could (if it ever actually did) occur again now.
If your job depends on it , why get into that grey area between zero and just under the limit? Duty rosters are such that you do get plenty of down time when you can enjoy a drink along with your mates. But, if you can't plan ahead sufficiently well as to avoid reporting for duty with any alcohol in your bloodstream then you either have a problem or you don't care.
Actually, in 99% of cases I would expect most professionals to demonstrate capability to fly an aircraft even when over the limit and at the limit for driving - albeit impaired. This doen't justify anything.
If you are being paid for your professional skills and judgement then please don't expect any leeway if you turn up with these abilities in any way impaired through use of alcohol or drugs. It is not fair to anyone else.
Hopefully this is urban myth but I heard a story about a senior F/O who had a night on the tiles in HK. His crew had to smuggle him onboard the next day and he didn't actually 'surface' until the flight was airborne - I hope these days are well in the past and doubt that such nonsense could (if it ever actually did) occur again now.
Guest
Posts: n/a
ichenel
Just how much of this thread did you read before posting? How much research did you do? Any? None? The last page?
There are a number of reasons why a zero limit is not applied and none of them so that we who fly for a living can have a quick snort before putting the uniform on. Uninformed rants and calls for hanging contribute nothing and annoy those of us with a real interest (not to mention the moderators).
The wannabee section is thataway >>>>>
Just how much of this thread did you read before posting? How much research did you do? Any? None? The last page?
There are a number of reasons why a zero limit is not applied and none of them so that we who fly for a living can have a quick snort before putting the uniform on. Uninformed rants and calls for hanging contribute nothing and annoy those of us with a real interest (not to mention the moderators).
The wannabee section is thataway >>>>>
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pretty far away
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its a great responsibilty and you need to be at your optimum mental state
Good Gracious me !! What a load of pontifying old farts on this site.
yeah, some guys get caught the hand in the ...pint and that's not what I would recommend doing but remember this bearded guy some 2000 years ago...................he who hasn't sinned.............bla bla bla.
I absolutly resent selg rightous little punks like you whith experience close to........well zippo stranded on some God forsaken lump of sand who feel they can voice this kind of black and white idea. How much does your experience weigh in comparison to this guy's ??? Feather light mate !!
Try to build up some hours on a real aircraft and then have a say.
Whatever the reason, when one day where, let's hope not, you've made it flying big planks and feel the cold of the blade on your neck cuz you've screwed the pooch. You might want to reconsider then !!
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: London
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Me Myself, sorry to point this out, but with every post like the one you wrote, you just erode what little respect anyone has left for your profession. Act like a professional. Behave like a professional. Write and speak like a professional.
I guess you're the same person who moans about your poor terms and conditions on another thread. Until you can see the total hypocrisy in your views, you will get nowhere. And here you are defending Mr UA given his wondrous "experience"! Well, I think a bit of good judgement might have been helpful, don't you? Clearly, the sensationalist previous post touched a nerve!
I guess you're the same person who moans about your poor terms and conditions on another thread. Until you can see the total hypocrisy in your views, you will get nowhere. And here you are defending Mr UA given his wondrous "experience"! Well, I think a bit of good judgement might have been helpful, don't you? Clearly, the sensationalist previous post touched a nerve!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: crawley,england
Age: 76
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the pilots unions stance/limits on alcohol consumption prior to flight. I believe that in the RAF there was an old saying of "24hrs from bottle to throttle", was this true
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: dubai
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The easiest and best way for pilots and FAA is to standardise the alcohol limit worldwide. Once all airlines and pilots are made aware there wouldn't have to play the guessing game. It can be very difficult for airline crew to sleep/rest with the different time zones that they have to fly to.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Valley Where the Thames Runs Softly
Age: 77
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course, the fuddy duddy magistrates (with whom common sense is a rare trait indeed and legal training even rarer) were probably awed by having such a magnificent case in front of them and quickly dispatched it up the ladder with shaking hands.
Just to clarify something, the breath testing machines in police stations are not legally calibrated for the very low aviation limit, so suspects are always given a blood test and bailed to return later when the results have come back.
Last edited by Unwell_Raptor; 4th Apr 2009 at 21:19.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unwell Raptor
From where do you get the 12 months figure? 
I know a bit about this as I work in a court that serves a large airport and I have seen similar cases.
The case was sent to the Crown Court because the usual starting point is about 12 months custody, which is beyond JPs' powers.
The case was sent to the Crown Court because the usual starting point is about 12 months custody, which is beyond JPs' powers.
Finnair pilot, Manchester, Dec 2004: 6 months
Royal Brunei pilot, Isleworth (LHR), Dec 2004: 6 months
Emirates pilot, Isleworth (LHR), Dec 2006: 4 months
Thomson pilot, Coventry (Birmingham airport) Mar 2009: 6 months
FL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Thailand
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Myself, I note that Brahms was well into composing the second movement of his great Requim at the age of 21. Liszt, was 21 when he met Pagannini and began his brilliant career as a pianist and composer.
Brahms and Liszt have a lot to answer for!
For those of you whose first language is not English, i.e. Americans, Ozzies, etc, the above mentioned are Cockney rhyming slang for 'pissed', meaning drunk.
Why do the elderly so despise the young?
Brahms and Liszt have a lot to answer for!
For those of you whose first language is not English, i.e. Americans, Ozzies, etc, the above mentioned are Cockney rhyming slang for 'pissed', meaning drunk.
Why do the elderly so despise the young?
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Valley Where the Thames Runs Softly
Age: 77
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FL;
No inconsistency, I think. The starting point (per a judge at Isleworth) of 12 months, less a third off for a guilty plea, and a bit more for personal mitigation will fit with the cases you mention.
CPS submissions and our Clerk's advice are invariably to send these cases up.
As for the quoted suggestion that these cases cause excitement on the lay bench, how does Flash8 think we reacted to an alleged contract killer we saw the other day, who faces eight charges including murder and firearms offences? Of course it was just another case to be dealt with by the book, and it took less than five minutes.
No inconsistency, I think. The starting point (per a judge at Isleworth) of 12 months, less a third off for a guilty plea, and a bit more for personal mitigation will fit with the cases you mention.
CPS submissions and our Clerk's advice are invariably to send these cases up.
As for the quoted suggestion that these cases cause excitement on the lay bench, how does Flash8 think we reacted to an alleged contract killer we saw the other day, who faces eight charges including murder and firearms offences? Of course it was just another case to be dealt with by the book, and it took less than five minutes.
Last edited by Unwell_Raptor; 5th Apr 2009 at 10:53.
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't read all of this but I suggest those of us who have been in the sureal world of long haul aviation and thus know what we are talking about keep talking and the rest shut up.
And while I'm at it, I can't think of anyone less qualified to asses something of this nature than a professional judicial officer.
And while I'm at it, I can't think of anyone less qualified to asses something of this nature than a professional judicial officer.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Alabama
Age: 58
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't read all of this but I suggest those of us who have been in the sureal world of long haul aviation and thus know what we are talking about keep talking and the rest shut up.
And while I'm at it, I can't think of anyone less qualified to asses something of this nature than a professional judicial officer.
Last edited by FrequentSLF; 5th Apr 2009 at 17:38.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unwell_Raptor
Thank you for clarifying what you meant.
My concern was that you previously said "the usual starting point is about 12 months custody".
That may well be the usual starting point of 'a judge at Isleworth' but it is not the same thing as being the usual starting point and, as originally posted, inadvertently gave the misleading impression that there is some 'official' starting point.
The sentences I mentioned all came from items posted on PPRuNe. As far as I'm aware, together with the sentence imposed in the case which began this thread - 6 months suspended - they are all the sentences imposed upon pilots in the UK to date.
FL
The starting point (per a judge at Isleworth)
My concern was that you previously said "the usual starting point is about 12 months custody".
That may well be the usual starting point of 'a judge at Isleworth' but it is not the same thing as being the usual starting point and, as originally posted, inadvertently gave the misleading impression that there is some 'official' starting point.
The sentences I mentioned all came from items posted on PPRuNe. As far as I'm aware, together with the sentence imposed in the case which began this thread - 6 months suspended - they are all the sentences imposed upon pilots in the UK to date.
FL
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: guildford
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Try to build up some hours on a real aircraft and then have a say.
I have no tolerance for drinking and flying. Alcohol is not a bitching betty problem- it's a real issue in the profession.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did not say it was acceptable to drink six pints and fly the next day, i said that six pints is not alot on a night out.
It is not acceptable to fly the next day after a night out drinking, I thought I made that view quite clear in the tone of my post.
It is not acceptable to fly the next day after a night out drinking, I thought I made that view quite clear in the tone of my post.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wether or not 6 pints is a lot on a night out depends who you are. A 33cl bottle of Tiger and 1/2 bottle of wine is more than enough for me. Even when I was drinking a lot, 4 points was enough. 6 pints (unless alcohol-free beer which IMHO is a pointless product) probably qualifies as a binge as well.
sua cuique voluptas
Cue 10+ pages of pointless debate on alcohol + flying
Ripline
