UA pilot falls foul of idiotically low UK alcohol law
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Germany
Age: 76
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wikipedia is your friend...
According to Wikipedia, "drug" is a bit vaguely defined. You have stuff ranging from the humble aspirin to all these modern antibiotics: medicinal drugs.
When it comes to aviation many people are surprised to find that many medicinal drugs are illegal! The drug puts you in a condition of unfitness to fly, simply put.
Then we come to the fun stuff: recreational drugs. Some of the really enjoyable ones are unfortunately illegal, which does seem rather a shame. Okay, cannabis can rot your brain and ecstasy (MDMA) turn you into a vegetable but... So the nanny state tries to save us from ourselves by making them illegal. As far as I know there's no rehab program for cannabis users who are pilots but I could be wrong about that. As to ecstasy there was just a report published about a PPL who took some and then went flying, killing himself and his young passenger.
Alcohol is a legal recreational drug but not everywhere and always. Plus there are usually limits to its use so that simply taking too much can see you arrested.
Alcohol is also a poison, hence the term "intoxicated". which literally means "having ingested poison". Every so often we get to read about someone who checks out after proving that he can "chug" a quart of vodka. That puts the body into a footrace between nausea (a protective reflex) and death from alcohol poisoning. Usually our hero barfs all over himself before passing out, to general merriment and no one permanently the worse off but every so often the alcohol is kept down to command a general shut-down of first higher brain functions but later all those boring things such as breathing that keep us alive.
Alcoholism is accepted nowadays as a disease with stages and one "marker" can be alcohol tolerance. Basically a heavy drinker can drink more and, while still impaired, function better than a non-drinker with the same blood alcohol level. In the terminal stage of the disease alcohol is necessary for proper functioning; this is when you get the snakes crawling up the walls and the "shakes" until that first drink to start the day with.
I knew a guy who could put away a quart of Scotch an evening but do a pretty good job of flying the next morning early. He still lost his job, though. It was just that in those days and in that environment we had all been trained to look the other way for the most part. I tried to intervene but got nowhere with him.
In an ideal world, like the one dreamed of by the Nazis, anyone with a disability would be quietly done away with so that we would have a godlike general population. Instead we try to find ways of allowing people with flaws, and that includes most of us beyond a certain age, to still work and contribute to society, including alcoholics.
An odd thing is that you can end up flying again but you will still be an alcoholic, just one who doesn't drink! (Think of it this way: I am a raging heterosexual but that doesn't mean I am going to have sex during the flight. I have learned to control my male urge, always present, to have sex.) There are ways to try and teach people to control the urge to drink as well that have been proven to be effective. The rationale is that it is much better, much safer in the long run, to have rehabilitation programs in place if the alternative is a pilot hiding his problem and going untreated.
Everytime there is an incident like this one you will get a typical response from some that anyone with a drink problem should be tossed out of aviation without a second thought. The funny thing is, I usually imagine that same sort of responder then having another snort before going on to fulminate about the next social problem that shows up on his screen, homosexuals allowed to marry and adopt children, perhaps. At best that's just nostalgia for an age when we went for simple solutions and kept problems decently out of sight. "Times have changed and we must change with them." Well, that is what my 19 year-old daughter keeps telling me, anyway!
When it comes to aviation many people are surprised to find that many medicinal drugs are illegal! The drug puts you in a condition of unfitness to fly, simply put.
Then we come to the fun stuff: recreational drugs. Some of the really enjoyable ones are unfortunately illegal, which does seem rather a shame. Okay, cannabis can rot your brain and ecstasy (MDMA) turn you into a vegetable but... So the nanny state tries to save us from ourselves by making them illegal. As far as I know there's no rehab program for cannabis users who are pilots but I could be wrong about that. As to ecstasy there was just a report published about a PPL who took some and then went flying, killing himself and his young passenger.
Alcohol is a legal recreational drug but not everywhere and always. Plus there are usually limits to its use so that simply taking too much can see you arrested.
Alcohol is also a poison, hence the term "intoxicated". which literally means "having ingested poison". Every so often we get to read about someone who checks out after proving that he can "chug" a quart of vodka. That puts the body into a footrace between nausea (a protective reflex) and death from alcohol poisoning. Usually our hero barfs all over himself before passing out, to general merriment and no one permanently the worse off but every so often the alcohol is kept down to command a general shut-down of first higher brain functions but later all those boring things such as breathing that keep us alive.
Alcoholism is accepted nowadays as a disease with stages and one "marker" can be alcohol tolerance. Basically a heavy drinker can drink more and, while still impaired, function better than a non-drinker with the same blood alcohol level. In the terminal stage of the disease alcohol is necessary for proper functioning; this is when you get the snakes crawling up the walls and the "shakes" until that first drink to start the day with.
I knew a guy who could put away a quart of Scotch an evening but do a pretty good job of flying the next morning early. He still lost his job, though. It was just that in those days and in that environment we had all been trained to look the other way for the most part. I tried to intervene but got nowhere with him.
In an ideal world, like the one dreamed of by the Nazis, anyone with a disability would be quietly done away with so that we would have a godlike general population. Instead we try to find ways of allowing people with flaws, and that includes most of us beyond a certain age, to still work and contribute to society, including alcoholics.
An odd thing is that you can end up flying again but you will still be an alcoholic, just one who doesn't drink! (Think of it this way: I am a raging heterosexual but that doesn't mean I am going to have sex during the flight. I have learned to control my male urge, always present, to have sex.) There are ways to try and teach people to control the urge to drink as well that have been proven to be effective. The rationale is that it is much better, much safer in the long run, to have rehabilitation programs in place if the alternative is a pilot hiding his problem and going untreated.
Everytime there is an incident like this one you will get a typical response from some that anyone with a drink problem should be tossed out of aviation without a second thought. The funny thing is, I usually imagine that same sort of responder then having another snort before going on to fulminate about the next social problem that shows up on his screen, homosexuals allowed to marry and adopt children, perhaps. At best that's just nostalgia for an age when we went for simple solutions and kept problems decently out of sight. "Times have changed and we must change with them." Well, that is what my 19 year-old daughter keeps telling me, anyway!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another case
And it is sad. Maybe just bad luck or judgement. One drink too many? Let's suppose the guy went to the pub at night around 4pm and left around 11pm, in order to have 0.06% BAC at 9 am he would have to drink about 7 pints of beer (thats about 14 bottles) 
That doesn't make any sense.
A good way is to calculate when to stop drinking, 12 hours is not always enough.
That doesn't make any sense.A good way is to calculate when to stop drinking, 12 hours is not always enough.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Can anyone tell me which aviation accidents have been attributed to alcohol?
Yes, I can! A colleague managed to fly into the mountain after having a glass. The fact that he was pretty fast made it impossible to find any substances in what was left....
Yes, I can! A colleague managed to fly into the mountain after having a glass. The fact that he was pretty fast made it impossible to find any substances in what was left....
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like a drink as much as the next man (I have one just now). I work for a company where we regularly spend several days away down route. Many of my colleagues enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, and nothing more, good for them. As I am not sure that I could exercise that level of control, and to avoid doubt on my part, I do not drink alcohol from the night before I start a tour until I get home at the end of the last day.
It is not because I am a stronger man than them, but because I am weaker. We are all responsible for our own behaviour, but also if I felt my colleague was "unfit" to fly, I would discretely invite him to call in sick and suggest that he might like to seek some help. I know a few former colleagues who had serious problems, and, with support, not only overcame them but also became outstanding councillors for those with similar issues.
I think UA should be praised for taking a firm but fair line to rehabilitate this pilot. Thankfully nothing terrible happened, and throwing someones whole life away when the opportunity for redemption exists would be very harsh.
Let he who is without sin.......
It is not because I am a stronger man than them, but because I am weaker. We are all responsible for our own behaviour, but also if I felt my colleague was "unfit" to fly, I would discretely invite him to call in sick and suggest that he might like to seek some help. I know a few former colleagues who had serious problems, and, with support, not only overcame them but also became outstanding councillors for those with similar issues.
I think UA should be praised for taking a firm but fair line to rehabilitate this pilot. Thankfully nothing terrible happened, and throwing someones whole life away when the opportunity for redemption exists would be very harsh.
Let he who is without sin.......
Very good post indeed.
I don´t drink alcohol at all, after being close to become an addict. I have been run over by a drunk car driver when I was 16 and spent 7 weeks in hospital as a result. So I´m not in favor of in toxicated people. However we have to face the fact that they are ill.
On a side note: I spent a few overnights in the UK and given the amount of drunk people (especially youngsters) one can see there, I just wonder where they get enough sober ones to take blood samples in the morning. Heavy flat rate drinking is a huge problem for emergency services in my country these days. Time to rethink our position on alcohol. A zero tolerance also in cars is about time IMO.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I often wonder if we'd have won WWII if there were alcohol testing then ?
From the numerous books I've read those true heroes lived very much in a drinking culture. The beer was diluted though !
From the numerous books I've read those true heroes lived very much in a drinking culture. The beer was diluted though !
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Germany
Age: 76
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What part is wrong in what I wrote?
I don't think I am taking this problem lightly, just writing that nowadays it is handled in a surprisingly different way.
As to where I was in this, either a problem child or else a pious by-stander, I can call witnesses if I need to (they hang out on a forum nearby) but let's just say that I do know what I am writing about!
My teen-age daughter is at that happy stage of development where alcohol is still a delightful recreational drug; none of her friends have had time to develop a problem with it, I guess. (There was that kid from the village who hit a tree head-on, yeah, but he wasn't in her circle so that one doesn't count.) Sometimes I find myself telling her to take it easy, which she finds ever so laughable coming from someone she only knows as a non-drinker.
Here I guess I am just trying to show people looking in from the outside how aviation is trying to deal with alcohol abuse in a way that is humane but also protective of the traveling public. Take it or leave it.
As an aside: I lived in the East End of London, just off Mile End Road for about eight months. One quickly learned to stay off that main drag when the pubs were emptying after a big footie match had been shown! "Staggering, pugnaciously drunk" seemed to be the normal default mode then for the native Brits on show. My God! At least the drunks in Helsinki usually just lay there quietly so that tripping over them is the only risk.
As to where I was in this, either a problem child or else a pious by-stander, I can call witnesses if I need to (they hang out on a forum nearby) but let's just say that I do know what I am writing about!
My teen-age daughter is at that happy stage of development where alcohol is still a delightful recreational drug; none of her friends have had time to develop a problem with it, I guess. (There was that kid from the village who hit a tree head-on, yeah, but he wasn't in her circle so that one doesn't count.) Sometimes I find myself telling her to take it easy, which she finds ever so laughable coming from someone she only knows as a non-drinker.
Here I guess I am just trying to show people looking in from the outside how aviation is trying to deal with alcohol abuse in a way that is humane but also protective of the traveling public. Take it or leave it.
As an aside: I lived in the East End of London, just off Mile End Road for about eight months. One quickly learned to stay off that main drag when the pubs were emptying after a big footie match had been shown! "Staggering, pugnaciously drunk" seemed to be the normal default mode then for the native Brits on show. My God! At least the drunks in Helsinki usually just lay there quietly so that tripping over them is the only risk.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it not true that the effects of alcohol are more pronounced at higher altitudes? There's less oxygen in the air and thus in the bloodstream, therefore reducing the amount of oxygen reaching the brain in much the same way that alcohol does. That's why people suffering asphyxiation due to decompression (or whatever) usually act like they're drunk.
3 shots of vodka are usually enough to knock me out completely for a whole transatlantic flight. Judging by some of my own hangovers I would say a 36 hour "bottle to throttle" rule should apply. You're risking potentially thousands of lives in the plane and on the ground.
I'm surprised none of this has been mentioned yet. Then again one doesn't know where to begin disputing Old Lizzy's nonsense.
3 shots of vodka are usually enough to knock me out completely for a whole transatlantic flight. Judging by some of my own hangovers I would say a 36 hour "bottle to throttle" rule should apply. You're risking potentially thousands of lives in the plane and on the ground.
I'm surprised none of this has been mentioned yet. Then again one doesn't know where to begin disputing Old Lizzy's nonsense.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edinburgh and 3C
Age: 71
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In response to PanPanYourself, the problem at altitude is that the affinity between haemoglobin and alcohol is higher than that between haemoglobin and oxygen, so alcohol and altitude are a poor mixture and can exacerbate altitude sickness problems as you suffer from a proportionately lower level of oxygen in your bloodstream than you would sober at the same altitude. I used to work regularly at 14000' (Mauna Kea) and would avoid alcohol for at least 9 hours before going to the summit.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The limit is the limit is the limit. There is no excuse for being over the limit. In this case it would have taken 4 more hours to be under the limit, thats half again the 8 hour rule!!!
I suspect that this is a case of last nights alcohol not cleared, the 1 hour 1 unit is only a guideline as food, excercise, sweating in a sauna etc all have effects but if he has had 8 hours off that is 8 units (approx) metabolised which is 4 pints plus another 4 units not metabolised thats 6 pints of medium strength beer.
I know that this thread is filled with "tee totallers" which I find highly unlikely, I have never met a tee total pilot ever, so lets be honest, 6 pints on a night out is not a huge amount. Some wouldn't even be visably drunk on that. Way way too over the limit to drive and definately too much if you are flying early the next day.
We all like a nightstop , a bit of a room party with the cabin crew, it is one of the perks of the job but as someone said earlier the 8 hour rule alone is not enough. Work out how much is legal then add a couple of hours on to be sure, I know of one airline that has a 10 hour rule others that are 12 hours, all depend on moderation of course. In this case another 4 hours (12 total) probably would have seen him under the limit. Not saying that he would be fit to fly , fatigue wise etc though.
If crews see the 8 hours as a target almost, ie drink up to 8 hours and stop that won't save your bacon.
Having said that 48 hours is ridiculous, drinking alcohol in moderation while strictly obeying the limits is not a crime.
I suspect that this is a case of last nights alcohol not cleared, the 1 hour 1 unit is only a guideline as food, excercise, sweating in a sauna etc all have effects but if he has had 8 hours off that is 8 units (approx) metabolised which is 4 pints plus another 4 units not metabolised thats 6 pints of medium strength beer.
I know that this thread is filled with "tee totallers" which I find highly unlikely, I have never met a tee total pilot ever, so lets be honest, 6 pints on a night out is not a huge amount. Some wouldn't even be visably drunk on that. Way way too over the limit to drive and definately too much if you are flying early the next day.
We all like a nightstop , a bit of a room party with the cabin crew, it is one of the perks of the job but as someone said earlier the 8 hour rule alone is not enough. Work out how much is legal then add a couple of hours on to be sure, I know of one airline that has a 10 hour rule others that are 12 hours, all depend on moderation of course. In this case another 4 hours (12 total) probably would have seen him under the limit. Not saying that he would be fit to fly , fatigue wise etc though.
If crews see the 8 hours as a target almost, ie drink up to 8 hours and stop that won't save your bacon.
Having said that 48 hours is ridiculous, drinking alcohol in moderation while strictly obeying the limits is not a crime.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NSYNK
An incorrect statement and a very dangerous assumption if anyone decides they want to try to calculate when they will be safe to fly or drive.
Exercise, cold showers, coffee, food taken before, during or after alcohol intake does not affect the volume of alcohol in the bloodstream, or the reduction of it.
Alcohol will leave an individuals body at roughly 1 unit per hour, the exact figure fluctuates but depends on the individual. You cannot eat or exercise it out... those activities may make you feel better or more 'with it', but they do not get rid of the alcohol.
In fact it could be argued that if you have a large meal, your body is less capable of getting rid of alcohol efficiently as it is also having to digest a meal...
Anyone who is considering trying to calculate how long it will take them to clear their system should be very cautious.
Alcohol starts to disspipate as soon as you start driniking it, so even as you drink, you will be getting rid of some units. 1 unit per hour is a good base to work from, but don't try to work out to the nearest 20 mins or so when you will be 'safe'.
Use the 1 unit per hour rule and give yourself an added 2 or 3 hours just to be (more) sure.
...the 1 hour 1 unit is only a guideline as food, excercise, sweating in a sauna etc all have effects...
Exercise, cold showers, coffee, food taken before, during or after alcohol intake does not affect the volume of alcohol in the bloodstream, or the reduction of it.
Alcohol will leave an individuals body at roughly 1 unit per hour, the exact figure fluctuates but depends on the individual. You cannot eat or exercise it out... those activities may make you feel better or more 'with it', but they do not get rid of the alcohol.
In fact it could be argued that if you have a large meal, your body is less capable of getting rid of alcohol efficiently as it is also having to digest a meal...
Anyone who is considering trying to calculate how long it will take them to clear their system should be very cautious.
Alcohol starts to disspipate as soon as you start driniking it, so even as you drink, you will be getting rid of some units. 1 unit per hour is a good base to work from, but don't try to work out to the nearest 20 mins or so when you will be 'safe'.
Use the 1 unit per hour rule and give yourself an added 2 or 3 hours just to be (more) sure.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It isn't? You could have fooled me. I like a drink, but it would be a glass or two of wine, not a gut-bust of beer. And I don't mean a couple of 350ml glasses of wine either, I mean a couple of small glasses.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
6 pints not that much?
Sorry, I am not a teetotaler, and I also think we should have a couple of beers in the nightstops. If you would change the drinking limit to 24 or 36 hours in my airline there would be no more beer.
But 6 pints is almost 12 beers/units, you will need more than 12 hours to burn it off. I think 8-9 beers/units and stop drinking 12 hours before will just about clear you to be 0% at check-in.
But 6 pints is almost 12 beers/units, you will need more than 12 hours to burn it off. I think 8-9 beers/units and stop drinking 12 hours before will just about clear you to be 0% at check-in.
There is a lot of rubbish on this thread, mostly from self-opinionated, ill-informed half-wits...(did I miss anyone?).
But, I must say that I enjoyed the sanity espoused by the intelligent and thought-provoking posts from chuks.
But, I must say that I enjoyed the sanity espoused by the intelligent and thought-provoking posts from chuks.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Kerikeri, New Zealand or Noosa Queensland. Depending on the time of year!
Age: 83
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only way to relax and ensure rest on a short layover is:
(1) Drink alcohol.
(2) Take drugs.
(3) Sleep with the stewardess.
As the first two are prohibited by law it is best to opt for the third option. I always did.
(1) Drink alcohol.
(2) Take drugs.
(3) Sleep with the stewardess.
As the first two are prohibited by law it is best to opt for the third option. I always did.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: england
Posts: 613
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe I'm getting old. After six pints I would have a seriously fuzzy head and be reaching for the ibuprofen. Fly an aircraft after that? I don't think I would even walk the dog.
PS. Lizzy, I quite like the UK's "idiotic" regulations and am left thinking I would prefer the FAA's "even more idiotic" regulations.
PS. Lizzy, I quite like the UK's "idiotic" regulations and am left thinking I would prefer the FAA's "even more idiotic" regulations.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: In the upper parishes
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah so I was doing a bit of a wind up and judging by all the juvenile name calling behind anonymous "handles" I hit the mark. Some interesting comments though, especially the ones that use feeble logic to deduce I am in Americashire. (Sorry George III you have a lot to answer for when I get to meet you)
I don't condone the slightest amount of alcohol in the cockpit, or for that matter, behind the wheel. I am amazed though that I can be jailed for being at an alcohol level that does not permit me to drive a bus, but I would not even get a ticket if I were registering the same level in a car; and yes, I think the alcohol level for driving should be lower, with greater penalties in England - perhaps a look at the Norwegian way of handling DUI...... But the local authorities seem to be too busy spending my taxes checking to see if my garbage can is properly closed....we need more revenues to pay for all this oversight.
It's been raining cats and dogs here, and I am sadly grounded.....probably best to head for a cuppla beeeahs; mind you I live next door to my local, which is a very good thing.
Thanks boys!
Liz
I don't condone the slightest amount of alcohol in the cockpit, or for that matter, behind the wheel. I am amazed though that I can be jailed for being at an alcohol level that does not permit me to drive a bus, but I would not even get a ticket if I were registering the same level in a car; and yes, I think the alcohol level for driving should be lower, with greater penalties in England - perhaps a look at the Norwegian way of handling DUI...... But the local authorities seem to be too busy spending my taxes checking to see if my garbage can is properly closed....we need more revenues to pay for all this oversight.
It's been raining cats and dogs here, and I am sadly grounded.....probably best to head for a cuppla beeeahs; mind you I live next door to my local, which is a very good thing.
Thanks boys!
Liz
Last edited by Old Lizzy; 26th Mar 2009 at 12:30.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Germany
Age: 76
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How fascinating... A troll who proudly outs himself! Is there anything else you would like to share with your rapt on-line audience?
Of course the title of the thread was a bit of a give-away. Next time better start by looking up "subtlety" in a dictionary.
I always wondered about this sort of thing, were these folks so desperately bored that they would find trolling worth doing? I guess so, odd as that seems.
Well, cheer up! I hear that they are going to re-make "Crossroads" That Benny, what a hoot! Meanwhile, yes, have a pint or two or three while you think up your next subtle on-line post.
Of course the title of the thread was a bit of a give-away. Next time better start by looking up "subtlety" in a dictionary.
I always wondered about this sort of thing, were these folks so desperately bored that they would find trolling worth doing? I guess so, odd as that seems.
Well, cheer up! I hear that they are going to re-make "Crossroads" That Benny, what a hoot! Meanwhile, yes, have a pint or two or three while you think up your next subtle on-line post.