EK407 Tailstrike @ ML
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: OS
Age: 65
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take another perspective.
I don't condone EK management’s disciplinary actions however take a step back and look at it form a different angle.
After reading the more sensible replies it would seem that SOPs aren't correctly enforced allowing for a variety of TOW/LPC inputs to be tolerated with the eventual undetected GIGO result. There are many holes in Swiss cheese, they aren't going away, we just have to make sure they aren't all aligned.
An unfortunate product of the need for more efficiency in aviation is computer driven task management. Pilots need to be more effective managers in this area and also more importantly the computer software should be more robust to self check logical data entry and output.
Pilots are the last line in defence, don't lower your guard.
After reading the more sensible replies it would seem that SOPs aren't correctly enforced allowing for a variety of TOW/LPC inputs to be tolerated with the eventual undetected GIGO result. There are many holes in Swiss cheese, they aren't going away, we just have to make sure they aren't all aligned.
An unfortunate product of the need for more efficiency in aviation is computer driven task management. Pilots need to be more effective managers in this area and also more importantly the computer software should be more robust to self check logical data entry and output.
Pilots are the last line in defence, don't lower your guard.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone have a copy of the excellent "Pilot" magazine article on his story
Join Date: May 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does this airline have a (Just) Safety Culture?
Interesting comments in this thread for sure but I would ultimately ask the above question.....
Are their employees comfortable reporting safety concerns, even if they involve an error on the part of the employee? I would argue that having two pilots removed from the property after an unintentional act such as this drives the reporting and errors underground. The employees are in fear of their jobs now.
I wonder when a non-reprisal policy will be signed by the CEO there! The buck stops with The Boss for all matters safety. I am just aghast that two livelihoods have been lost because of the arguable lack of a Just Culture there.
Are their employees comfortable reporting safety concerns, even if they involve an error on the part of the employee? I would argue that having two pilots removed from the property after an unintentional act such as this drives the reporting and errors underground. The employees are in fear of their jobs now.
I wonder when a non-reprisal policy will be signed by the CEO there! The buck stops with The Boss for all matters safety. I am just aghast that two livelihoods have been lost because of the arguable lack of a Just Culture there.
Last edited by Oilhead; 19th Apr 2009 at 20:06.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Up front
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For Vino re Airbus take - offs: All white lights out, Big weight = high speeds - lotsa thrust, small weight = low speeds - low thrust. straight from a very senior training Capt at Airbus during training.
So as you line up, take some time ie step back - no white lights, take off green no blue. Cross reference weights and speeds and off you go and enjoy!
Good luck to the EK boys - there but for...
So as you line up, take some time ie step back - no white lights, take off green no blue. Cross reference weights and speeds and off you go and enjoy!
Good luck to the EK boys - there but for...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 75
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATSB Reports
Isn't there supposed to be a preliminary report by 30 days after the incident. Not so far at ATSB 200901310
ATSB don't seem to have a great record in producing timely reports. Oldest still outstanding are Incident 200702402 (19 Apr 07), Serious Incident 200607202 (27 Nov 06) and Accident 200603722 (17 Jul 06).
ATSB don't seem to have a great record in producing timely reports. Oldest still outstanding are Incident 200702402 (19 Apr 07), Serious Incident 200607202 (27 Nov 06) and Accident 200603722 (17 Jul 06).
Rumour circulating that Airbus has agreed to repair the A345 at the request of EK. The aircraft will be issued with a permit to fly and ferried to Toulouse depressurised. The rear pressure bulkhead will be replaced. There are still some concerns of other damage caused by the tail impacts and high speed overweight landing.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: 42 34N, 3 02E
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this has a lot to do with the construction of the A340, in fact, all Airbus types. For years now, engineers have complained that, where you could slap on a patch on other types (note I'm trying not to turn this into a boeing versus Airbus rant), with an Airbus, because everyting is tweaked down to absolute minimum tolerances, the simple patch job is impossible and it involves a major structural replacement.
I think what was said in the link above is also true - it all comes down to ecomomics. Someone, hopefully EK, should make a small killing on spare parts, as the aircraft will be cannabilised before the remainder is turned into frying pans.
I think what was said in the link above is also true - it all comes down to ecomomics. Someone, hopefully EK, should make a small killing on spare parts, as the aircraft will be cannabilised before the remainder is turned into frying pans.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Ozmate
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having seen the scrape marks for myself recently while lining up on RWY34, I cannot believe how lucky they were not to have become a horrible statistic!!
The scrape marks are VERY evident right up to the end of the clearway/stopway and then into the grass at the end of the runway.
SOOOO CLOSE !!!!!!
The scrape marks are VERY evident right up to the end of the clearway/stopway and then into the grass at the end of the runway.
SOOOO CLOSE !!!!!!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the ragged edge
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow. They don't get any closer than that!
This is a huge airline management failure imho. For years decisions made by senior managers have loaded up the crews to the point where less than an hour will not cut it.
It starts with too many block hours and skimping on good quiet hotels and ends with security hassling people and delaying the crew from arriving on time at the aircraft. You need a full hour at the gate to cope with the unexpected distraction; a full hour to cope with the unexpected loading FUBAR. Most of the time you won't use that extra time. Read a magazine or take a quick combat nap and hope inept, toady managers won't see you doing it.
Then, on the departure that turns into mayhem, instead of dealing with headaches right up until brake release, the capt has a few extra minutes before pushback to double check the killer items ZFW, flex pwr, fuel ticket (remaining plus added), flap & trim setting, runway length.... do they make sense?
Again, just like the disappearance of manual line flying, basic airmanship has evaporated off the syllabus of the Brave New Button-pusher of tomorrow. Just "suck-it-up" they used to tell me. "This is the real world."
Well, the real world sucks.
Recall that pilots used to be blamed and fired for busting altitudes. Then ALPA, in concert with industry, developed the altitude alerter which is now a part of every flight. Altitude busts are much rarer today.
Since government and business seem only interested in reacting to events and interested only in finding a scapegoat to fry, may I suggest a worldwide SOS (suspension of service) until we can bypass security and arrive at the airplane on time.
You need to strengthen your unions gentlemen.
Crunch - out
This is a huge airline management failure imho. For years decisions made by senior managers have loaded up the crews to the point where less than an hour will not cut it.
It starts with too many block hours and skimping on good quiet hotels and ends with security hassling people and delaying the crew from arriving on time at the aircraft. You need a full hour at the gate to cope with the unexpected distraction; a full hour to cope with the unexpected loading FUBAR. Most of the time you won't use that extra time. Read a magazine or take a quick combat nap and hope inept, toady managers won't see you doing it.
Then, on the departure that turns into mayhem, instead of dealing with headaches right up until brake release, the capt has a few extra minutes before pushback to double check the killer items ZFW, flex pwr, fuel ticket (remaining plus added), flap & trim setting, runway length.... do they make sense?
Again, just like the disappearance of manual line flying, basic airmanship has evaporated off the syllabus of the Brave New Button-pusher of tomorrow. Just "suck-it-up" they used to tell me. "This is the real world."
Well, the real world sucks.
Recall that pilots used to be blamed and fired for busting altitudes. Then ALPA, in concert with industry, developed the altitude alerter which is now a part of every flight. Altitude busts are much rarer today.
Since government and business seem only interested in reacting to events and interested only in finding a scapegoat to fry, may I suggest a worldwide SOS (suspension of service) until we can bypass security and arrive at the airplane on time.
You need to strengthen your unions gentlemen.
Crunch - out
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: You Name It.
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
False alarm. Quote from EK
Emirates Airlines decided on Apr 21st, that the airplane will be repaired in Melbourne to a point, where it can perform an unpressurized ferry to Airbus Industries in Toulouse, where repairs will be completed.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again, just like the disappearance of manual line flying, basic airmanship has evaporated off the syllabus of the Brave New Button-pusher of tomorrow. Just "suck-it-up" they used to tell me. "This is the real world."
Well, the real world sucks.
Well, the real world sucks.
I don't care if we are delayed, we do what is necessary.
Management backs me up, every time.
Case closed.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot of Emirates flight that nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport was sleep-deprived
[url=http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,28318,25387505-5014090,00.html]
Ellen WhinnettSunday Herald SunApril 26, 2009 12:01am
Concerns ... the Emirates Airbus that had to land at Melbourne Airport after it was damaged during take off / Brad Marsellos
The pilot of the Emirates flight that nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport with 225 passengers on board had almost no sleep the previous day and was following the airline's orders to take off at reduced power to save money on fuel.
Several sources told the Sunday Herald Sun that Emirates - like many modern airlines - ordered its pilots to take off at reduced thrust when possible to cut fuel costs, emissions and wear on the aircraft.
The thrust or power settings are determined by factors such as aircraft weight, weather conditions, the surrounding terrain and runway length.
But an Emirates source said the March 20 flight - EK407 to Dubai - was set at the "absolute minimum" thrust, leaving little room for error.
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
"This is all about the money."
Emirates yesterday issued a statement saying safety was a top priority for the airline.
"Safety is at the forefront of all operations within the Emirates group," a spokeswoman said.
Sources said a report due on Thursday was expected to show the near-catastrophic accident happened after the incorrect weight was typed into the plane's computers, causing it to set an inadequate take-off speed.
Air safety investigators are examining Emirates' staff records, including the work rosters of some of its pilots, to see if there are systemic safety problems within the airline that could have contributed to the near disaster.
The Sunday Herald Sun learned that the pilot of the plane was also almost at the threshold of the number of hours he was legally able to fly.
Emirates pilots are permitted to fly a maximum 100 hours each 28 days.
Investigators are examining whether pilot fatigue was a factor after being told the pilot had barely slept the day before the flight.
Several sources confirmed that Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators were also looking at whether any other "human factors" needed to be addressed.
The inspection of Emirates' records is part of the bureau's investigation - expected to take up to a year - into the reasons behind the error.
The inquiry will investigate issues such as cockpit distractions and crew resource management.
A source said it was not possible for one person alone to commit the error.
"It happens because a range of things come together at the right time," the source said.
An Emirates source said the airline was in a risky situation because it did not have a culture that encouraged people to voice their safety concerns.
The source said some Emirates pilots were badly fatigued, but people were afraid to speak out.
"There is a limit to how far you can push people," the source said. "Those long-haul flights are really, really fatiguing and demanding.
"But a punitive culture means people are too afraid to speak out.
"Two things, (flight safety and the punitive culture) in my view, that do not match in 2009 and in a major airline.
"A very bad cocktail."
It can also be revealed that:
THE tail crashed into the runway with such force that passengers heard a loud scraping noise and some saw a heavy shower of sparks.
THE impact ripped a hole in the fuselage, causing what appeared to be smoke and dust to swirl into the cabin.
THE pilot made three announcements during the next 35 minutes as he circled Port Phillip Bay to dump fuel before returning to land.
NONE of the announcements told passengers how serious the situation was and the passengers were not in the "brace position" when the plane landed.
THE weight error was made before the plane left the departure gate.
PASSENGERS, including Anita and Ray Chappel, escaped uninjured after the plane landed safely.
The two pilots involved in the accident were forced to resign 48 hours after they were flown back to Dubai.
Safety Bureau and Civil Aviation Safety Authority officials are thought to be concerned about the action taken against the pilots, but have no jurisdiction to intervene.
Emirates pilots, using false names, have flooded the internet to express their concern about rostering, fatigue and the action taken against the two pilots.
The men are expatriates and at least one has since returned to his home country.
The United Arab Emirates does not allow unions, so more than 2000 Emirates pilots employed worldwide are not covered by a union.
Investigations by the Sunday Herald Sun further revealed the pilot was no stranger to the runways at Tullamarine, flying into Melbourne for almost five years, about once every two months.
The pilots - two operating pilots and two augmenting pilots - and 14 crew members returned to their hotel in Melbourne immediately after the accident.
The next day, bureau investigators came to the hotel to conduct interviews.
The man leading the inquiry is investigator Paul Ballard.
Emirates is sending some of its senior managers to Australia to handle the fall-out from Thursday's release of the preliminary report.
Andrew Parker, an Australian now based in Dubai as Emirates' senior vice-president of public, government and environmental affairs, will arrive in Australia this week with Capt Alan Stealey, Emirates' divisional senior vice-president of flight operations.
Emirates declined to comment on the March 20 accident because of the bureau's investigation.
But the company said it had continuously reached international safety standards and had been a founding member of the Gulf Flight Safety Committee - a Middle East aviation body.
The company denied it had a punitive culture that discouraged open discussion about safety concerns.
"Emirates has a positive and open safety reporting culture that helps management understand safety issues before they become significant concerns," a spokeswoman said.
The company would not answer direct questions about reduced-thrust take-offs, the fate of the pilots and the future of the damaged aircraft.
[url=http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,28318,25387505-5014090,00.html]
Ellen WhinnettSunday Herald SunApril 26, 2009 12:01am
Concerns ... the Emirates Airbus that had to land at Melbourne Airport after it was damaged during take off / Brad Marsellos
The pilot of the Emirates flight that nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport with 225 passengers on board had almost no sleep the previous day and was following the airline's orders to take off at reduced power to save money on fuel.
Several sources told the Sunday Herald Sun that Emirates - like many modern airlines - ordered its pilots to take off at reduced thrust when possible to cut fuel costs, emissions and wear on the aircraft.
The thrust or power settings are determined by factors such as aircraft weight, weather conditions, the surrounding terrain and runway length.
But an Emirates source said the March 20 flight - EK407 to Dubai - was set at the "absolute minimum" thrust, leaving little room for error.
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
"This is all about the money."
Emirates yesterday issued a statement saying safety was a top priority for the airline.
"Safety is at the forefront of all operations within the Emirates group," a spokeswoman said.
Sources said a report due on Thursday was expected to show the near-catastrophic accident happened after the incorrect weight was typed into the plane's computers, causing it to set an inadequate take-off speed.
Air safety investigators are examining Emirates' staff records, including the work rosters of some of its pilots, to see if there are systemic safety problems within the airline that could have contributed to the near disaster.
The Sunday Herald Sun learned that the pilot of the plane was also almost at the threshold of the number of hours he was legally able to fly.
Emirates pilots are permitted to fly a maximum 100 hours each 28 days.
Investigators are examining whether pilot fatigue was a factor after being told the pilot had barely slept the day before the flight.
Several sources confirmed that Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators were also looking at whether any other "human factors" needed to be addressed.
The inspection of Emirates' records is part of the bureau's investigation - expected to take up to a year - into the reasons behind the error.
The inquiry will investigate issues such as cockpit distractions and crew resource management.
A source said it was not possible for one person alone to commit the error.
"It happens because a range of things come together at the right time," the source said.
An Emirates source said the airline was in a risky situation because it did not have a culture that encouraged people to voice their safety concerns.
The source said some Emirates pilots were badly fatigued, but people were afraid to speak out.
"There is a limit to how far you can push people," the source said. "Those long-haul flights are really, really fatiguing and demanding.
"But a punitive culture means people are too afraid to speak out.
"Two things, (flight safety and the punitive culture) in my view, that do not match in 2009 and in a major airline.
"A very bad cocktail."
It can also be revealed that:
THE tail crashed into the runway with such force that passengers heard a loud scraping noise and some saw a heavy shower of sparks.
THE impact ripped a hole in the fuselage, causing what appeared to be smoke and dust to swirl into the cabin.
THE pilot made three announcements during the next 35 minutes as he circled Port Phillip Bay to dump fuel before returning to land.
NONE of the announcements told passengers how serious the situation was and the passengers were not in the "brace position" when the plane landed.
THE weight error was made before the plane left the departure gate.
PASSENGERS, including Anita and Ray Chappel, escaped uninjured after the plane landed safely.
The two pilots involved in the accident were forced to resign 48 hours after they were flown back to Dubai.
Safety Bureau and Civil Aviation Safety Authority officials are thought to be concerned about the action taken against the pilots, but have no jurisdiction to intervene.
Emirates pilots, using false names, have flooded the internet to express their concern about rostering, fatigue and the action taken against the two pilots.
The men are expatriates and at least one has since returned to his home country.
The United Arab Emirates does not allow unions, so more than 2000 Emirates pilots employed worldwide are not covered by a union.
Investigations by the Sunday Herald Sun further revealed the pilot was no stranger to the runways at Tullamarine, flying into Melbourne for almost five years, about once every two months.
The pilots - two operating pilots and two augmenting pilots - and 14 crew members returned to their hotel in Melbourne immediately after the accident.
The next day, bureau investigators came to the hotel to conduct interviews.
The man leading the inquiry is investigator Paul Ballard.
Emirates is sending some of its senior managers to Australia to handle the fall-out from Thursday's release of the preliminary report.
Andrew Parker, an Australian now based in Dubai as Emirates' senior vice-president of public, government and environmental affairs, will arrive in Australia this week with Capt Alan Stealey, Emirates' divisional senior vice-president of flight operations.
Emirates declined to comment on the March 20 accident because of the bureau's investigation.
But the company said it had continuously reached international safety standards and had been a founding member of the Gulf Flight Safety Committee - a Middle East aviation body.
The company denied it had a punitive culture that discouraged open discussion about safety concerns.
"Emirates has a positive and open safety reporting culture that helps management understand safety issues before they become significant concerns," a spokeswoman said.
The company would not answer direct questions about reduced-thrust take-offs, the fate of the pilots and the future of the damaged aircraft.