Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol
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6. Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable and are best ignored.
6. Eye witnesses can be notoriously unreliable and their reports should be weighed carefully before being totally discounted or ignored
- many have made serious mistakes ignoring such evidence on petty prejudices
So, sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't... the one I quoted in #133 certainly seemed to have noticed that the aircraft crashed - or was he unreliable about that?
We shall see if his estimate of the initially nose-up attitude and approx height (80m) was far wrong fairly soon I should think....
The evidence in the field seems to support his statement '... the aircraft seemed then to lose speed (& propulsion?) and drop very steeply'
It's a starting point and without CVR's and FDR' etc, just like a detective, have to build up a picture from visual evidence... fortunately we have additional information these days.
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Magplug,
You miss the point completely.
I do fly aircraft painted the right shade of blue, and that is why I am telling you that you will "NEVER" have gotten, or get, now, or any time ever in the future, a "visual switch from 18R to 18C".
It just is not done at SPL. The controller even verifies the new localizer frequency with you when you accept the change of runway. Surely, you have not been accepting the change with a view to completing it as a visual approach?
Sorry to be so pedantic, but if we are going to be critical of sensationalism in others, lets keep our own posts factual to start with. Claiming to have done visual switches often in the past, only makes your otherwise good post seem as sensationalist as the other people you are being critical of.
Perhaps your are just unlucky! Visual or Radar it does not seem to matter, you only get it if you are painted the right shade of blue
I do fly aircraft painted the right shade of blue, and that is why I am telling you that you will "NEVER" have gotten, or get, now, or any time ever in the future, a "visual switch from 18R to 18C".
It just is not done at SPL. The controller even verifies the new localizer frequency with you when you accept the change of runway. Surely, you have not been accepting the change with a view to completing it as a visual approach?
Sorry to be so pedantic, but if we are going to be critical of sensationalism in others, lets keep our own posts factual to start with. Claiming to have done visual switches often in the past, only makes your otherwise good post seem as sensationalist as the other people you are being critical of.
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Trivial point in the overall scheme of things, but the motorway labelled A9 in Capt Kaos' diagram is actually the A200. The A9 is the road underneath the +/- 1.5km label.
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Icing - yes they would have been in icing conditions. The engine anti ice would have been on as a matter of course, in cloud with OAT below +10.
Airframe icing is really not an issue with the 73NG, at least not in those sort of conditions.
Windshear (since it has been mentioned) - to cause such an accident would have had to have been pretty dramatic. Unlikely if not impossible in prevailing conditions.
Airframe icing is really not an issue with the 73NG, at least not in those sort of conditions.
Windshear (since it has been mentioned) - to cause such an accident would have had to have been pretty dramatic. Unlikely if not impossible in prevailing conditions.
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I think it highly unlikely the aircraft just ran out of fuel. The smell of kerosene just lends more credence to that theory.
If there was only unusable fuel left in the fuel system, it likely would not be in sufficient quantities to be smelled by people in the area of the crash.
Fuel leaking from the tanks is a more reasonable expectation.
BUT, even if the aircraft ran out of fuel, how does that explain the stall?Aircraft don't just fall out of the sky when the engines stop running.
I believe this accident has much in common with Colgan 3407 in that it appears they let the airspeed get to slow and a stall resulted.
If there was only unusable fuel left in the fuel system, it likely would not be in sufficient quantities to be smelled by people in the area of the crash.
Fuel leaking from the tanks is a more reasonable expectation.
BUT, even if the aircraft ran out of fuel, how does that explain the stall?Aircraft don't just fall out of the sky when the engines stop running.
I believe this accident has much in common with Colgan 3407 in that it appears they let the airspeed get to slow and a stall resulted.
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Following the first press conference this afternoon, the media's hunger to know the names of the desceased is a constant distraction and only goes to inflame my hatred for an industry that still believes in "if it bleeds, it leads" ... mind you, I think the Dutch were a little too quick off the mark to hold such a presser, followed by the promise of a second one at 1900cet when they will release the names. One presser, no names and just the facts post-accident.
Then again, it's just my opinion.
Then again, it's just my opinion.
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Dutch TV reporting that the aircraft travelled a very short distance, no longer than the length of the aircraft itself, after hitting the ground. Six of the injured passengers are said to be very seriously injured.
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From press conference just finished.
Previous chairman of Dutch ALPA has said that a loss of thrust seems likely at this point.
Aircraft cleared a line of trees and landed in ploughed, muddy field.
- 9 people dead. 6 bodies removed from aircraft, 3 bodies still in the cockpit, being left there for now for investigation purposes.
- 82 wounded
- Of whom 24 severely, and 6 not certain to survive their injuries.
Previous chairman of Dutch ALPA has said that a loss of thrust seems likely at this point.
Aircraft cleared a line of trees and landed in ploughed, muddy field.
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without substance
I just happened to read about the THY crash on German media and went to this forum in order to see whether anything substantial is coming to light - apparently not.
When I opened this thread it was 9 pages long. Now it has grown to 14.
I hate too many rules and overregulation, but it sure would be nice to cut the BS here.
How does every professional aviator prefer to be treated when she/he is involved in an incident or accident and none of the facts are known yet...?
This reminds me of the fatal accident of a friend where a high-profile passenger was involved (but survived). It was a sheer nightmare for the family of this pilot to hear and read about all the sheer speculation that emerged in the days after the accident.
When I opened this thread it was 9 pages long. Now it has grown to 14.
I hate too many rules and overregulation, but it sure would be nice to cut the BS here.
How does every professional aviator prefer to be treated when she/he is involved in an incident or accident and none of the facts are known yet...?
This reminds me of the fatal accident of a friend where a high-profile passenger was involved (but survived). It was a sheer nightmare for the family of this pilot to hear and read about all the sheer speculation that emerged in the days after the accident.
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In France, on the news, we have had Gérard Feldzer (retired air france captain and director of the bourget air and space museum) who have given this explanations for the fire absence :
- Wings didn't separate from the fuselage, so no leak of fuel
- Pilots certainly had done their emergency checklist before the crash and shutoff the fuel levers.....
Shuting off both fuel levers is done in a predicted crash just before touching down, but I don't think that in this case, they have had the time to do this procedure........
- Wings didn't separate from the fuselage, so no leak of fuel
- Pilots certainly had done their emergency checklist before the crash and shutoff the fuel levers.....
Shuting off both fuel levers is done in a predicted crash just before touching down, but I don't think that in this case, they have had the time to do this procedure........
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Just one post from busz that has anything to offer on what looks increasingly like a stall.
Pilots,when flying an approach,can either leave the AT in "ARM" mode(min speed reversion assured automatically) or disengage it altogether.If it was disengaged,then the pilot becomes responsible for ensuring speed remains above 1.3Vs.
Call-outs are made by the PM at the OM/1000 Radalt and 500 radalt to ensure that speed,profile and descent rate remain within limits.If the PF elects to "go visual" these calls may be omitted,although usually a 500' call will remain in case of incapacitation.Distraction and/or complacency can also lead to these vital calls being omitted.
Dual flame-out?Possibly but then we should really be looking at a picture of a 737 in a field without its back broken.The wreckage doesnt fit the dual-flameout.
Very early to speculate I know.Apologies.
Pilots,when flying an approach,can either leave the AT in "ARM" mode(min speed reversion assured automatically) or disengage it altogether.If it was disengaged,then the pilot becomes responsible for ensuring speed remains above 1.3Vs.
Call-outs are made by the PM at the OM/1000 Radalt and 500 radalt to ensure that speed,profile and descent rate remain within limits.If the PF elects to "go visual" these calls may be omitted,although usually a 500' call will remain in case of incapacitation.Distraction and/or complacency can also lead to these vital calls being omitted.
Dual flame-out?Possibly but then we should really be looking at a picture of a 737 in a field without its back broken.The wreckage doesnt fit the dual-flameout.
Very early to speculate I know.Apologies.
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atc from minutes after incident.
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Statements on casualties in Turkish Airlines crash create controversy
Statements on casualties in Turkish Airlines crash create controversy
Contradictory statements made by officials after a Boeing 747-800 type passenger plane operated by Turkish Airlines (THY) crash-landed in Amsterdam on Wednesday. (UPDATED)
Footage aired by Dutch broadcasters and news agencies showed bodies in body bags like the one Hurriyet Daily News Online used for this story. In the photograph bodies can be seen lying on the ground, covered, by the wreckage.
However initial statements regarding the accident made by Turkish officials, including those representing the Transportation Ministry and executives from THY, said all passengers survived the crash, prompting local media to label the accident as a "miracle".
The situation created controversy and raised question. The CEO of THY, Temel Kotil said: "Nobody has been killed."
And Transportation Minister Binali Yildirim echoed a similar view: "There are injured but no deaths."
The first controversy, however, came from remarks made by Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan when he told reporters that he sends his condolences to the family of the passenger killed in the accident. His remarks came ahead of the official statement on casualty numbers.
The Turkish public now awaits an official explanation on the situation that has begun to resemble an effort to cover up a disaster and present it as a miracle.
HÜRRİYET - ENGLISH
This website is updated quite often.
But beware they are already listing crew and pax names.
Contradictory statements made by officials after a Boeing 747-800 type passenger plane operated by Turkish Airlines (THY) crash-landed in Amsterdam on Wednesday. (UPDATED)
Footage aired by Dutch broadcasters and news agencies showed bodies in body bags like the one Hurriyet Daily News Online used for this story. In the photograph bodies can be seen lying on the ground, covered, by the wreckage.
However initial statements regarding the accident made by Turkish officials, including those representing the Transportation Ministry and executives from THY, said all passengers survived the crash, prompting local media to label the accident as a "miracle".
The situation created controversy and raised question. The CEO of THY, Temel Kotil said: "Nobody has been killed."
And Transportation Minister Binali Yildirim echoed a similar view: "There are injured but no deaths."
The first controversy, however, came from remarks made by Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan when he told reporters that he sends his condolences to the family of the passenger killed in the accident. His remarks came ahead of the official statement on casualty numbers.
The Turkish public now awaits an official explanation on the situation that has begun to resemble an effort to cover up a disaster and present it as a miracle.
HÜRRİYET - ENGLISH
This website is updated quite often.
But beware they are already listing crew and pax names.
Last edited by Earl; 25th Feb 2009 at 15:51.
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The Rescue vehicles with the tracked, tank-like wheels you see in the photos were ordered after the Saab 340 crash about ten years ago, when they had trouble navigating through the thick mud prevalent in the fields around the airport. Whoever decided to make that investment may have saved someone's life today.
From the photos limked so far, I can't resolve fully the condition of the fan blades of the RH engine nor whether there is indeed fire damage to the bottom of the core nacelle.
I agree with some of the other posters that the smell of kerosene is not conclusive about the presence of useable fuel.
I also note that relatively intact wings do not always catch fire when crash landing on wet soil even though they are leaking fuel.
So, the majority of the speculation is worthless until we get a couple of more facts perhaps from the investigators on scene.
I agree with some of the other posters that the smell of kerosene is not conclusive about the presence of useable fuel.
I also note that relatively intact wings do not always catch fire when crash landing on wet soil even though they are leaking fuel.
So, the majority of the speculation is worthless until we get a couple of more facts perhaps from the investigators on scene.
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Originally Posted by Bridge Builder
If the aircraft came to such a sudden halt, that would suggest (I emphasise suggest, as this is speculation), that the forces produced by the de-acceleration would be substantial.
Is there a sound reason why rear facing seats may not help in such a situation?
Is there a sound reason why rear facing seats may not help in such a situation?