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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

Old 2nd Mar 2009, 08:39
  #861 (permalink)  
 
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Whoever thinks that video is fake needs to take of their tin foil hat and get their brain retuned.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 09:05
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The auto pilot is now disconected and the thrust levers fire walled. The ground is rushing up and the GPWS alerts have started to come thick and fast. They start to pull up to reduce the decent rate.
the only GPWS alerts that would have been heard are "SINK RATE... SINK RATE....SINK RATE"

the rest would be inhibited due to the aircraft in the landing configuration already.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 09:26
  #863 (permalink)  
 
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and "glideslope"!!!

I doubt they would have mis-identified a dual engine failure as if that occurs then there is a loss of electric power until the APU gen kicks in. Pure speculation...and not very logical at that.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 09:30
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Romeo, The GPWS would be barking sink rate, glide slope, sink rate, glide slope, at fairly constant rate from the moment it departed the glide slope, until it hit the ground!
BTW, I am not claiming this is what hapened, only adding my six peneth as possible.
3greens, I did say that a double engine failure would have lots of alerts, but it is possible that reducing speed, and idle thrust could make someone think of this for a few seconds.
It is very easy for us all sitting here in arm chair comfort, but at 1000ft or so with the stick shaker going, things would be a whole lot different. It's bad enough in the sim, just imagine trying to analise what has gone wrong when it hapens for real!
I am sure that when they get to the bottom of this there will be many of us saying "there but for the grace of god".
May those that died there R I P.

Last edited by BALLSOUT; 2nd Mar 2009 at 09:50.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 09:42
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EGPWS

@ ROMEO E.T.

the only GPWS alerts that would have been heard are "SINK RATE... SINK RATE....SINK RATE"
You could be wrong, if they use E(nhanced)GPWS.

http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/comm...tion_(TCF).avi


In that case a TOO LOW TERRAIN is also possible:

"Descent below unsafe radio altitude while too
far from any airport in the terrain database."


I know that the boundary at 18R for this warnings is quite close to the airport.


Rgds
emjanssen

Last edited by emjanssen; 2nd Mar 2009 at 10:00.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 09:51
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Carriage of EGPWS would be mandatory for this class of aircraft.

However there is normally an inhibition signal to the TAWS/EGPWS for the aural alert if a stall warning is active.

I do not know the exact configuration of this aircraft
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 10:34
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Very realistically made video about the last seconds:

Airrebels.com

It supports my theory:

Came in fast and high, disengaged AT, forgot it there, trim went full aft, pulled shortly before stall, pushed throttle full forward, nose went even higher, speed incresed, stall avoided, high ROD, shortly before impact some flare, controlled landing, crash.

Video created after eyewitnesses, not according ADS-B data.

Dani
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 10:36
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Dear crashresident,

indeed, the picture of the engine (dallasnews) tend to confirm that the engine was rotating. Looking to the other picture nufoto.nl | Negen doden bij vliegtuigcrash Schiphol (seconds after impact) it looks like the engine was rotating at this point, delivering a "steady" flow (5 to 10 m at the rear of engine, constant height of dust).
Could you please describe in detail (you are not the eyewitness Jeroen J. are you?) (at first without interpreting it), what you hear before the crash, after the crash? Thanks!
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 11:17
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Originally Posted by eltonioni
0:51. Hole in roof which appears to match the hole made by firefighters.
Also at 0:17 there appears to be a temporary windsock
The "windsock" you see is the broken red wingtip.

Again, I don't see a man-made hole in the roof. All I see is the hole made by the door frame being pushed up.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 11:26
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Crashresident+JeroenJ

Mauersegler,
Yes, I'm an eyewitness(earwitness).
Heard a bang, groundtremble and engine howling that fade in seconds(1-2).
Got info from inside SPL in two mins.
I live in Zwanenburg over 13 years and are become quite an expert on a/c engines while approache landing or climbing. I spot a/c for the (runway)polderbaan and closer for the (runway)Zwanenburgbaan Witch are line up parallel. Just by looking out my backwindow.

Here another interesting pic(url):
Flickr Photo Download: Crash Turkish Airlines TK 1951
Both engines are linedup in front of the aircraft. Closer examination tells the a/c slided a bit to the left as the engines moved straight forward due to the weightforce when snapped of.
Crash Turkish Airlines TK 1951 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Last edited by crashresident; 11th Mar 2009 at 09:28.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 11:43
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crashresident,
ok, thanks for confirming that. Could you remember the engines noise before the crash, something abnormal (in comparation to other landings)?

Last edited by Mauersegler; 2nd Mar 2009 at 12:56. Reason: spelling
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 12:09
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very valid question, dont slag him DYSAG

any input from a "prefessional" person who experiences aicraft in close proximity has to be of interest, to build up a sound picture...

so please dont jump down his throat. Thanks...glf
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 12:41
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Eyewitness

Why not post here, thought it was in pilots interest.
When you have been close to an accident like this, one develops a complicity.
Its in my interest to keep a/c in the sky as the're flying over by 30 in the our.
Information i hold is available for professionals , media and officials.
Some say eyewitnesses are unreliable, but sum are very.

For who it interest:
Heard no sounds until impact.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 12:49
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Some fairly believable looking animations (at least for humble SLF) made according to eye witness accounts:
Hürriyet Video Galeri : Kaza böyle oldu

Hürriyet Video Galeri : Kaza böyle oldu2


In TURKEY the Pilots especially the Military guys are already heroes.
I know it's quite infuriating, reporters are writing long winded articles about how the Captain saved dozens of lives by "bringing the wings down level."
Do they even know who was flying the plane? Do they know what level of control the pilots had over the plane? No.
A lot of journalists/government officials in Turkey are going to be very red-faced if this turns out to be pilot error, which IMHO it will be.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 13:36
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crashresident

Did you read PanPan's post?

Furthermore you have probably ensured that you will be asked to give evidence to the investigation.

Nothing wrong with that. You sound like a straightforward and independent witness. That cannot be said, though, of the Turkish pilots union's lawyers who have a vested interest in a certain result.

If they don't like what you're saying they'll try to find any way to discredit you. Which would be a pity. In my opinion the less you say on a public forum the greater the chance of your official inputs being listened to.

I know these days people post their whole lives on Facebook, so maybe I'm just old and not sufficiently bold!
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 14:07
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Condolences to the bereaved

Flight International reports today that emergency services delayed efforts to access the flightdeck because of the LOCKED FLIGHTDECK DOOR. They attended badly injured passengers until the firecrews were able to access the flightdeck via a hole in the roof.

So far it is not known if the flightdeck crew survived the impact, but they were all already dead by the time they were accessed.

Has this ridiculous door policy claimed it's first victims?
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 14:25
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Originally Posted by crashresident
Look at the metal ring rounding the blades.
Scratch-marks suggest engine was spooling during impact.

That's a hell of an assumption based upon a somewhat blurred photograph and particularly as the area you refer to is known as the rub strip. It might well be crash damage but generally speaking investigators usually reserve judgement.

You might be an 'expert' on how engines sound from your flat but as others have already suggested I'd avoid getting carried away on the wave of your 15minutes of fame. More for your own benefit than anything else.
 
Old 2nd Mar 2009, 14:33
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@silverhawk As has been discussed on here already, it is doubtful that the flight deck door was locked. The access problems were probably down to the distortion of the door from the impact.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 14:58
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silverhawk

Flight International reports today that emergency services delayed efforts to access the flightdeck because of the LOCKED FLIGHTDECK DOOR. They attended badly injured passengers until the firecrews were able to access the flightdeck via a hole in the roof.

So far it is not known if the flightdeck crew survived the impact, but they were all already dead by the time they were accessed.

Has this ridiculous door policy claimed it's first victims?
I don't believe it.

I'd wait for the official report before commenting on survivability aspects and I sure wouldn't direct a post at the bereaved
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 15:05
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Crash resident

Dear Sir,

Quote ' It is in my interest to keep a/c in the sky...' You have stated what you heard (and have seen AFTER the event) to us but have you made contact with the accident investigation team?

I just want to verify that this information your 'expert ears' heard has been passed on to the relevant people. It would be a terrible shame to divulge this sort of information to Pprune and possibly to the newspapers, but not to the authorities, now would'nt it?

500 above (in a hotel near SAW)
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