Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol
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to LiS,
I arrived aprox 10min. (10.45)at the site. stayed there for 1 our 15 min.
Help arrived when aproached a/c. At that time volunteers rescueteams were helping pax.
It may take several minutes for medics to enter the a/c for safety reason.
So help was there, was quick and efficient.
I arrived aprox 10min. (10.45)at the site. stayed there for 1 our 15 min.
Help arrived when aproached a/c. At that time volunteers rescueteams were helping pax.
It may take several minutes for medics to enter the a/c for safety reason.
So help was there, was quick and efficient.
Thanks for your reply.
Are you saying that you arrived about 10 mins after the crash and rescue teams were also arriving at the same time?
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It seems the pilots were unaware that they were going to hit the ground.
As far as I know, the guys in control tower reported no panicky situation in the cockpit nor an emergency call from the pilots.
As far as I know, the guys in control tower reported no panicky situation in the cockpit nor an emergency call from the pilots.
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Status of the flight attendants
Lakerman, jmmitner, thankyou for your posts.
Lakerman, being an air hostess (FA) myself (on the exact same aircraft) it was encouraging to read your post.
Unfortunately the FA's were sitting in the areas most affected. Indeed 2 fwd behind the cockpit and 2 aft (seemingly ending up almost upside down).
The purser (seated outbound, fwd) is recorded as alive (no mention of injuries to any crew though so do not know about the loss of leg or which crew member).
If the other FA sitting at the front was killed then that leave only the 2 in the aft - how they survived let alone having the ability to assist in the evacuation is beyond me.
Relating to 'the' video - there doesn't seem to be 135 people in the vicinity of the aircraft? where are they all? And why is nobody trying to access the flight deck to help the very people who potentially prevented many more fatalities?
I realise this post is mainly of cabin crew interest but I find reading the pilot forums very informative (when you're not having a go at each other!)and you guys on here are the kings and queens of getting information.
I believe as a PU I can also learn a lot from this incident. Anything you find that relates to the cabin crew during your search for information would be greatly received. bring on the CRM!
Lakerman, being an air hostess (FA) myself (on the exact same aircraft) it was encouraging to read your post.
Unfortunately the FA's were sitting in the areas most affected. Indeed 2 fwd behind the cockpit and 2 aft (seemingly ending up almost upside down).
The purser (seated outbound, fwd) is recorded as alive (no mention of injuries to any crew though so do not know about the loss of leg or which crew member).
If the other FA sitting at the front was killed then that leave only the 2 in the aft - how they survived let alone having the ability to assist in the evacuation is beyond me.
Relating to 'the' video - there doesn't seem to be 135 people in the vicinity of the aircraft? where are they all? And why is nobody trying to access the flight deck to help the very people who potentially prevented many more fatalities?
I realise this post is mainly of cabin crew interest but I find reading the pilot forums very informative (when you're not having a go at each other!)and you guys on here are the kings and queens of getting information.
I believe as a PU I can also learn a lot from this incident. Anything you find that relates to the cabin crew during your search for information would be greatly received. bring on the CRM!
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Agenda's
I want to remind to posters,
There is and will be allways (dif)agenda's during course of investigation.
Parties like:
Dutch gouvernement
ATC
Schiphol
Boeing/ US autorrities
Pilot association
Groundpersonel mechanics
so on
There is and will be allways (dif)agenda's during course of investigation.
Parties like:
Dutch gouvernement
ATC
Schiphol
Boeing/ US autorrities
Pilot association
Groundpersonel mechanics
so on
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I want to remind to posters,
There is and will be allways (dif)agenda's during course of investigation.
Parties like:
Dutch gouvernement
ATC
Schiphol
Boeing/ US autorrities
Pilot association
Groundpersonel mechanics
so on
There is and will be allways (dif)agenda's during course of investigation.
Parties like:
Dutch gouvernement
ATC
Schiphol
Boeing/ US autorrities
Pilot association
Groundpersonel mechanics
so on
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Originally Posted by Rananim
If the localizer was captured above the path,the pilot(or trainee) may have not been able to program the automatics for a recapture.Perhaps then they took alll the automatics out.During the recapture,they get distracted(or rather fixated) and forget that thrust is manual.
You miss the glide, disconnect both, struggle to re-establish the glide with a high ROD and cope with the trim changes as you slow and extend flap. A low-hours pilot will not have learnt the pre-emptive trim and thrust that a seasoned NG pilot does without thinking. He will be heaving back and forth, and will possibly be maxed out.
If you go up through the glide having just selected landing flap with no thrust and a low ROD, then you will lose speed at an alarming rate. Maybe so fast that the stick shaker comes too late. Especially if you slam the levers forward and pitch up for a go-around.
In our operation, we always fully disconnect both the AP and AT, and so have no protection against low speed at all.
If this is what happened, then it adds weight to those who bang on about stable approaches (quite rightly).
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Thanks for the comment in post 837.
Actually not, really. The way I see this scenario is that the alerts you mention, except perhaps the stall warning, would only have been triggered when the situation had already become serious. Assuming the AP held the aircraft on the glideslope, presumably only the speed tape and pitch trimmer could have given clues to the crew before the stall warning activated... or ?
The data indicates the aircraft decelerated by, on average, 2 knots per second during the 15 seconds after passing 650 ft altitude while remaining on the glideslope. In other words from Vref to stall speed in just 10-15 seconds!
The nasty thing in this kind of thrust-deficit situation is that the speed decay develops slowly and can be hard to notice, but then gets progressively quicker as AoA and drag increases. It appears a little peculiar that the EGPWS does indeed have a sink rate alert, but apparently no deceleration alert which might have provided early warning to save this aircraft from losing airspeed. Please correct me if Im wrong.
So they ignored all of this or left it too late, and flew into the ground - all 6 eyes????
The data indicates the aircraft decelerated by, on average, 2 knots per second during the 15 seconds after passing 650 ft altitude while remaining on the glideslope. In other words from Vref to stall speed in just 10-15 seconds!
The nasty thing in this kind of thrust-deficit situation is that the speed decay develops slowly and can be hard to notice, but then gets progressively quicker as AoA and drag increases. It appears a little peculiar that the EGPWS does indeed have a sink rate alert, but apparently no deceleration alert which might have provided early warning to save this aircraft from losing airspeed. Please correct me if Im wrong.
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What is the reason for establishment of stable approaches and flight direction at AMS to have to be so rushed (as mentioned several times in the first few pages of this thread)?
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snowfalcon2,
You wrote:
"The way I see this scenario is that the alerts you mention, except perhaps the stall warning, would only have been triggered when the situation had already become serious."
Exactly!
But the validity of the statement requires that the aircraft was on the GP (or close), which I - like you - believe it was. (from approx. 1000 ft.)
brgds
Note: Link given in #728 has a lot of information:
The Aviation Herald
"The way I see this scenario is that the alerts you mention, except perhaps the stall warning, would only have been triggered when the situation had already become serious."
Exactly!
But the validity of the statement requires that the aircraft was on the GP (or close), which I - like you - believe it was. (from approx. 1000 ft.)
brgds
Note: Link given in #728 has a lot of information:
The Aviation Herald
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 1st Mar 2009 at 22:07.
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The Dutch Safety Board reported, that the three pilots were crushed by a panel, that intruded the cockpit from their back. They added, that the cockpit voice and flight data recorders have been read out. First evidence suggests, that both engines have failed before impact with the ground.
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Only AV herald is making that statement, supposedly a direct quote. I can't source it to any other news or information site. It makes no citations, and I find it dubious at best.
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With a little luck they will soon have all of the answers to what went wrong.
With regards to the mention of auto thrust disconect. It would be possible to have been stable with all checks complete from a good approach. Then say the F/O under training, who means to disconect the automatics and hand fly for the landing, mistakenly only disconects the auto thrust so no aural allert.
Up until now the approach has maybe gone very well so the captain is relaxed and for this short while doesn't notice. The aircraft maintains profile on autopilot but with thrust at idle, the speed decays rapidly (still no aural alert) Now at low level the stick shake goes and it's too low to recover. In the heat of the moment it could be confused with a double engine failure, but this would have come with lots of alerts. The auto pilot is now disconected and the thrust levers fire walled. The ground is rushing up and the GPWS alerts have started to come thick and fast. They start to pull up to reduce the decent rate. The engines are now spooling up so they pich the nose up even more. the aircraft hits the ground tail heavy, the rest we know.
With regards to the mention of auto thrust disconect. It would be possible to have been stable with all checks complete from a good approach. Then say the F/O under training, who means to disconect the automatics and hand fly for the landing, mistakenly only disconects the auto thrust so no aural allert.
Up until now the approach has maybe gone very well so the captain is relaxed and for this short while doesn't notice. The aircraft maintains profile on autopilot but with thrust at idle, the speed decays rapidly (still no aural alert) Now at low level the stick shake goes and it's too low to recover. In the heat of the moment it could be confused with a double engine failure, but this would have come with lots of alerts. The auto pilot is now disconected and the thrust levers fire walled. The ground is rushing up and the GPWS alerts have started to come thick and fast. They start to pull up to reduce the decent rate. The engines are now spooling up so they pich the nose up even more. the aircraft hits the ground tail heavy, the rest we know.
Last edited by BALLSOUT; 1st Mar 2009 at 23:10.
More than just an ATCO
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Also from AV
.
I haven't been able to find any source for that, or the comment about engine failure,
According to a report by Dutch Television emergency services had been deployed to runway 18R before the airplane went down. A
I haven't been able to find any source for that, or the comment about engine failure,
This Flightglobal article quotes a spokeswoman for the investigation board as saying that the chairmanīs words on "engine failure" were taken out of context:
Engine problem just one possible scenario in Schiphol crash: investigators
Engine problem just one possible scenario in Schiphol crash: investigators
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Originally Posted by Lost In Saigon
VIDEO: Hart van Nederland - Allereerste beelden na de crash
It is possible that the audio was dubbed in after, and that this video was shot much later.
But it looks authentic to me. At what part of the 1:03 long video did you see a "ruddy great hole in the cockpit roof "?
All I saw was the small hole made by the reinforced door frame being pushed up by the impact.
It is possible that the audio was dubbed in after, and that this video was shot much later.
But it looks authentic to me. At what part of the 1:03 long video did you see a "ruddy great hole in the cockpit roof "?
All I saw was the small hole made by the reinforced door frame being pushed up by the impact.
Also at 0:17 there appears to be a temporary windsock
I'm happy to stand corrected if it turns out to be real, but it seems to be too nonchalant with a lack of people / bodies / activity for the immediate aftermath.
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Pic running engine!
Look at pic at nu.nl | Het laatste nieuws lees je het eerst op NU.nl
nufoto.nl | Negen doden bij vliegtuigcrash Schiphol
You see a straight blowout from the engine 100 mtr in front/right of the plane.
Seem to be little to no wind at that moment.
nufoto.nl | Negen doden bij vliegtuigcrash Schiphol
You see a straight blowout from the engine 100 mtr in front/right of the plane.
Seem to be little to no wind at that moment.
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0:51. Hole in roof which appears to match the hole made by firefighters.
Also at 0:17 there appears to be a temporary windsock
I'm happy to stand corrected if it turns out to be real, but it seems to be too nonchalant with a lack of people / bodies / activity for the immediate aftermath.
Also at 0:17 there appears to be a temporary windsock
I'm happy to stand corrected if it turns out to be real, but it seems to be too nonchalant with a lack of people / bodies / activity for the immediate aftermath.
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Turkish Minister warns against speculations in Turkish Press
Turkish Transportation Minister Yildirim warned against speculations on some Turkish press which blame only wake turbulance for the crash, and expressed full confidence on the ongoing investigation:
Minister warns against speculations
Minister warns against speculations
Last edited by assilier; 2nd Mar 2009 at 09:32.
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Close up engine
Link to close up: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...VS2IVPRU.1.jpg
Look at the metal ring rounding the blades.
Scratch-marks suggest engine was spooling during impact.
Photo's does appear to be illusive, indeed with telelens.
Survivers did say the smell fuel but tanks were intact(afawk), may coused by the last thrust of the engine. Was in front of a/c and did blow at its direction. see pic: http://media.nu.nl/m/m1bzv76a43o6.jpg
Look at the metal ring rounding the blades.
Scratch-marks suggest engine was spooling during impact.
Photo's does appear to be illusive, indeed with telelens.
Survivers did say the smell fuel but tanks were intact(afawk), may coused by the last thrust of the engine. Was in front of a/c and did blow at its direction. see pic: http://media.nu.nl/m/m1bzv76a43o6.jpg
