UAL refusing to takeoff at Logan due to ship
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If the tall ship is not on the tailored takeoff chart( runway analysis) which it would never be then its a no go.
Ship clears the area, then takeoff chart legal!
Why the questions?
Ship clears the area, then takeoff chart legal!
Why the questions?
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There are regulations...
There are regulations restricting the height of the tall ships that are allowed to be there. Ostensibly, the takeoff charts, tailored for such
an occurrence, are based on this maximum allowed figure.
Thus, most carriers have two sets of charts for this....in this case, for Boston runway 22R, etc.....one set showing max takeoff weight for no ships, one set of charts for the 'tall ship'.....assuming its height is the max allowable. (If the particular ship is less than the max, so much the better.)
Again, it's up to management to provide its workers with the proper tools to do their jobs.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
an occurrence, are based on this maximum allowed figure.
Thus, most carriers have two sets of charts for this....in this case, for Boston runway 22R, etc.....one set showing max takeoff weight for no ships, one set of charts for the 'tall ship'.....assuming its height is the max allowable. (If the particular ship is less than the max, so much the better.)
Again, it's up to management to provide its workers with the proper tools to do their jobs.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
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As SLF if on that plane, I would be happy to know I had a flight crew that would not take any chances, rather than one that was 'sure it was fine', but could not 'prove' it. Safety first, delays second.
TME
TME
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Happens both ways
Retired from same now but I remember in 2002 receiving a GPWS warning while flying inbound IMC to ILS 4R cos of "stack of boxes" ship parked at IM site or close by. Next morning on dept, I noticed handling crane was well above the top of the "boxes". Cranes are there with or w/o ships. 
ATIS and NOTAMS issues (huh?)
Who checks where these things are before going to the local and runways change next AM?
Fly safe,
SBG
ATIS and NOTAMS issues (huh?)
Who checks where these things are before going to the local and runways change next AM?Fly safe,
SBG
Last edited by ScrewedbyGlenn; 19th Feb 2009 at 03:16.
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Folks,
It's a simple question.
"Uh, Tower, there's a ship in the departure path...is he moving?"
"Tower: Yeah, he appears to be anchored."
"Um, do you know how tall he is?"
"Tower: Uh, no.........."
Having asked the question, are YOU gonna go?
PB
It's a simple question.
"Uh, Tower, there's a ship in the departure path...is he moving?"
"Tower: Yeah, he appears to be anchored."
"Um, do you know how tall he is?"
"Tower: Uh, no.........."
Having asked the question, are YOU gonna go?
PB
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LMAO at this one!
A question from an unidentified aircraft about ships at 19:30z plus 15:05
Then an identified request from 823J at 19:30z plus 25:19? about ships!(different voice)
This is a set up, someone is proving a point, or being an arsehole.
The ATC tapes are available.
Then an identified request from 823J at 19:30z plus 25:19? about ships!(different voice)
This is a set up, someone is proving a point, or being an arsehole.
The ATC tapes are available.
On the subject of @rseholes
The only "@rseholes" I've identified so far are Sludge and Limp Leek. The UAL crew took the correct and professional action by requesting and waiting for the appropriate figures from dispatch. End of story. Mods close this thread and let's move on.
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Yeah?
The only "@rseholes" I've identified so far are Sludge and Limp Leek. The UAL crew took the correct and professional action by requesting and waiting for the appropriate figures from dispatch. End of story. Mods close this thread and let's move on.
You really should, because if the UAL Crew "did it right" then all the others did not.
One crew was (sic) "professional" and all the other crews were not!
One crew was (sic) "professional" and all the other crews were not!
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The audio is out there...
Other crews didn't give a **** what ships were in the harbor!
You have inspired me! I am now going to listen to another 45 mins of crap just to hear them depart!
Other crews may well have had the appropriate numbers and therefore could legally go.
You have inspired me! I am now going to listen to another 45 mins of crap just to hear them depart!
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I agree!
What you hear on the r/t is not necessarily representative of what is being said or what thought process is going on on the F/D.
However, if you listen close to the r/t then the crew of 823j KNEW there was a TALL ship ANCHORED before they even started their engines...
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I am honest.
I am listening to the rest of it.....
Are you?????????
18:12 into 20:00z ATC are trying to tell the crew that the ship is not in their flight path!
Listen to that tape....
Are you?????????
18:12 into 20:00z ATC are trying to tell the crew that the ship is not in their flight path!
Listen to that tape....
ATC are trying to tell the crew that the ship is not in their flight path!
). He decides if he's safe and legal - not ATC.
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As we are in the era where information can theoretically be transmitted in realtime it is very common to have T/O data transmitted to the A/C after the doors are closed, and before entering the runway. This means one can accept any bit of payload that might still fit on board, and still depart on time. This is profitable most of the time, but more often than one would wish, the data-flow is interrupted somewhere, leading to an A/C lined up without having received their T/O data yet.
They might have known about the obstacle, but they might not have know whether dispatch would have it in their numbers until they received those.
Considering the number of stations possibly involved in communicating the problem, 30min are easily spent troubleshooting.
You might dispatch the flight assuming there is always the most restrictive condition, but this might be challenged by the beancounters. That's the cost of one delayed flight versus the (possibly) increased fuel burn / decreased engine life / payload left behind on the rest.
Or you offer both performance versions, and leave the captain to identify the actual condition upon departure. If payload is compromised by the more restrictive performance, verify the actual condition ahead of time, because offloading payload may lead to another delay.
They might have known about the obstacle, but they might not have know whether dispatch would have it in their numbers until they received those.
Considering the number of stations possibly involved in communicating the problem, 30min are easily spent troubleshooting.
You might dispatch the flight assuming there is always the most restrictive condition, but this might be challenged by the beancounters. That's the cost of one delayed flight versus the (possibly) increased fuel burn / decreased engine life / payload left behind on the rest.
Or you offer both performance versions, and leave the captain to identify the actual condition upon departure. If payload is compromised by the more restrictive performance, verify the actual condition ahead of time, because offloading payload may lead to another delay.
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limp_leak why are you so determined to say this crew were wrong?
Take-offs are optional. If the captain has ANY doubt at all that there is an issue (ie the Company performance data may not have taken the ship into account) then he'd be an idiot to take off!
ATC can say all they want about where the ship is... they don't necessarily have access to your company engine out procedures/performance and the splays that go with it. I remember getting revised takeoff charts for a TREE that was about a mile off the centreline because it was in the splay.
I seriously hope that you aren't flight crew. If you are, please do let me know which airline you fly for because I won't be going anywhere near them with an attitude like yours.
Take-offs are optional. If the captain has ANY doubt at all that there is an issue (ie the Company performance data may not have taken the ship into account) then he'd be an idiot to take off!
ATC can say all they want about where the ship is... they don't necessarily have access to your company engine out procedures/performance and the splays that go with it. I remember getting revised takeoff charts for a TREE that was about a mile off the centreline because it was in the splay.
I seriously hope that you aren't flight crew. If you are, please do let me know which airline you fly for because I won't be going anywhere near them with an attitude like yours.