Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards
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"beeing screened all over the world by low class people"
This above comment says it all. A severe case of TNS (Toffee Nose Syndrome)
How dare the great unwashed dare to request to see our ID Cards, carry out searches and comply with Government Regulations.
Eejit
This above comment says it all. A severe case of TNS (Toffee Nose Syndrome)
How dare the great unwashed dare to request to see our ID Cards, carry out searches and comply with Government Regulations.
Eejit
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md80fanatic:
The passport RFID is the same as any RFID scheme, completely NON secure.
The passport RFID is the same as any RFID scheme, completely NON secure.
RFID works by means of passing the chip over membrane that can temporarily charge via induction the chip to transmit an identifying signal. How secure or insecure this is will be based purely upon implementation. Biometrics etc can be stored in a non volatile manner and can be interrogated as an when the chip is invoked.
Security wise this data can be encrypted in any number of manners - right down to the result being passed back to the interrogation system being defined by method of interrogation. Thus as a programmer I can build in security mechanisms as such that we cannot decode an RFID response without providing the biometric data such as a fingerprint as key (so to decrypt you would need your finger and the chip).
Whilst by no means foolproof and each implementation being different, for people to make a sweeping statement that its unsecure and worthless just shows ignorance of the technology.
As for the proposed/implementation in this scenario it makes me wonder what they are trying to achieve. I can undestand all the privacy concerns etc you guys have but then dont they have most if not all this information anyway in one form or another - is it they are just trying to streamline the getting of you guys through the gates to your aircraft?
I agree you all have access to the most lethal weapon available inflight which is the aircraft itself, with that comes the responsibility of being vetted for such a responsibility - as to being guniea pigs for the ID card scheme then alas its the way the world has gone at this point for better or for worse.
I back you on the privacy issue but what in reality is the alternative, the way we have been working has been proven insufficient. To me as a laymen mainstream ID cards is a different kettle of fish as I dont every day get to navigate a potential missile. I am sorry if I seem out of order in what I say but the responsibility placed in your hands is more than just the pax on your aircraft - its the damage you can do with it. Whilst you are vetted to be able to do this, a vet cannot be commenced at the start of every flight - I am sure we have all heard of the odd person here and there that have gotten their drivers licence by someone else sitting the test - these checks eliminate someone being substituted on the aircraft.
Personally I think all that is being asked is the verification that YOU are who YOU say you are, which is not unreasonable when your visiting an airport where your not known from the next person.
p.s. Profit max - its not an urban myth you must carry an ID or passport - I got fined for not having either on me just a few years ago.
Last edited by Jofm5; 17th Feb 2009 at 08:49. Reason: Sanity
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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How about the pilot workforce, based in the UK, accept the ID card, once issued to them by, one assumes, a competent authority, on the understanding that a crew member will swipe his/her card through a reader and if 'OK' will now by-pass all other security checks and be allowed to proceed direct to the aircraft?
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How about the pilot workforce, based in the UK, accept the ID card, once issued to them by, one assumes, a competent authority, on the understanding that a crew member will swipe his/her card through a reader and if 'OK' will now by-pass all other security checks and be allowed to proceed direct to the aircraft?
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jofm5 that is the point. they are not using these cards to get us out to the a/c. we still will be using a basic airport id to allow us to do that. these cards are nothing to do with security but for whatever the uk government wants it for.
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You cannot be compelled in law to have your biometric card checked though by a private individual namely the barrier technician employed by the airport. So what's the point?
Seems to me that this is not about the access to a single airport per se but rather about identifying anyone BEFORE they ever get anywhere near an airport. Is it being applied to pilots to annoy them? No - I suspect it's more about the security people themselves, the baggage handlers et al. That's just my opinion though.
And the Police, Customs and Immigration staff have to have them too apparently, they are vetted in excess of anyone at the airport but will still need a card. Again, what's the point?
Why bother going through the main security point anyway - walk around the fence to the flying school at the back of most airports and walk through two unlocked doors to go airside.
Seems to me that this is not about the access to a single airport per se but rather about identifying anyone BEFORE they ever get anywhere near an airport. Is it being applied to pilots to annoy them? No - I suspect it's more about the security people themselves, the baggage handlers et al. That's just my opinion though.
And the Police, Customs and Immigration staff have to have them too apparently, they are vetted in excess of anyone at the airport but will still need a card. Again, what's the point?
Why bother going through the main security point anyway - walk around the fence to the flying school at the back of most airports and walk through two unlocked doors to go airside.
Personally I think all that is being asked is the verification that YOU are who YOU say you are,
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Quant..
Nice vids.. But misguided.
God I am sounding like a proponent of ID cards of which I am not.
I would say from an aviation point of view it makes sense. Make the security as tight as possible, by that I dont mean strip you down to your underwear before boarding flights - I mean check you are you before letting you at the controls.
This would be as you go through to board - dont flash your ID, swipe it and press your thumb against a scanner and off you go - no harm done. There is no need for personal details stored, just a checksum of your fingerprint along with who it belongs to on the RFID chip. This does not even have to be on a central database just on the chip. Although it would be even more secure if they could match that to expected crew on a flight.
Look at how the Biometrics works on passports, the passport office does not interrogate a central database when checking. They check the checksum of your fingerprint against that of whats on the passport - very simple.
A simple explanation of the checksum is that the unique imprint of your fingerprint is calculated to a 256bit value, the machine that checks your fingerprint see's if it calculates the same value. Its not personal other than that value is unique to you. There is no reason for any agency to make not of that value and flag it up as a warning unless you have previously done wrong - so its in essence anonymous until you have misbehaved.
To reduce possible errors different algorithms will be used to cross verify this. This is all essentially the same way your PC will check to see if the files you are accessing are intact or not - its all old technology put to a new use.
Nice vids.. But misguided.
God I am sounding like a proponent of ID cards of which I am not.
I would say from an aviation point of view it makes sense. Make the security as tight as possible, by that I dont mean strip you down to your underwear before boarding flights - I mean check you are you before letting you at the controls.
This would be as you go through to board - dont flash your ID, swipe it and press your thumb against a scanner and off you go - no harm done. There is no need for personal details stored, just a checksum of your fingerprint along with who it belongs to on the RFID chip. This does not even have to be on a central database just on the chip. Although it would be even more secure if they could match that to expected crew on a flight.
Look at how the Biometrics works on passports, the passport office does not interrogate a central database when checking. They check the checksum of your fingerprint against that of whats on the passport - very simple.
A simple explanation of the checksum is that the unique imprint of your fingerprint is calculated to a 256bit value, the machine that checks your fingerprint see's if it calculates the same value. Its not personal other than that value is unique to you. There is no reason for any agency to make not of that value and flag it up as a warning unless you have previously done wrong - so its in essence anonymous until you have misbehaved.
To reduce possible errors different algorithms will be used to cross verify this. This is all essentially the same way your PC will check to see if the files you are accessing are intact or not - its all old technology put to a new use.
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Which we already have in the airside ID system, they don't just give them out to however wants one.
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You cannot be compelled in law to have your biometric card checked though by a private individual namely the barrier technician employed by the airport. So what's the point?
Seems to me that this is not about the access to a single airport per se but rather about identifying anyone BEFORE they ever get anywhere near an airport. Is it being applied to pilots to annoy them? No - I suspect it's more about the security people themselves, the baggage handlers et al. That's just my opinion though.
And the Police, Customs and Immigration staff have to have them too apparently, they are vetted in excess of anyone at the airport but will still need a card. Again, what's the point?
Why bother going through the main security point anyway - walk around the fence to the flying school at the back of most airports and walk through two unlocked doors to go airside.
Seems to me that this is not about the access to a single airport per se but rather about identifying anyone BEFORE they ever get anywhere near an airport. Is it being applied to pilots to annoy them? No - I suspect it's more about the security people themselves, the baggage handlers et al. That's just my opinion though.
And the Police, Customs and Immigration staff have to have them too apparently, they are vetted in excess of anyone at the airport but will still need a card. Again, what's the point?
Why bother going through the main security point anyway - walk around the fence to the flying school at the back of most airports and walk through two unlocked doors to go airside.
Your biometrics are translated into a checksum - it is that which is checked against the checksum on the identification you are holding. It is very much like saying do you look like your picture on the passport photo except its alot more accurate and can be done in nano seconds more accurately by an automated device.
Very little different yet alot more reliable.
Grrrrrr I really sound like a proponent of id cards which I am not. But I do see the logic in this in respect of your line of work.
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Originally Posted by Jofm5
p.s. Profit max - its not an urban myth you must carry an ID or passport - I got fined for not having either on me just a few years ago.
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JOFM and all the others that think these are reasonable - tell you what - why don't YOU guys trial the ID card. We'll wait a few years to see what the goverment and police do with YOUR data and then we'll see eh. Just look what Stella Rimmington, former head of the UK security services has said today. Basically the government use scare tactics about terrorism to pass laws that restrict civil liberties. I really can't understand why some people don't get it. This is purely about the government having more control over you. Many people fought and died to preserve freedoms in this country, it is beholden on us to keep up the fight and most of you are failing at that duty.
I'm sick of sanctimonious dogooders who think all this stuff is OK, because it only effects someone else.
This is one of my favourite poems which i beleive is relevent in all issues of civil liberties.
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.
Those of you that think this is OK, coz it only applies to us - think about the above!
You think we should have ID before getting on the aircraft - hey guess what - we do, its called and airside ID pass, and once we are all forced to have these big brother stazi papers do you know what we will use to get airside? yep, the same airside ID pass as today. And guess what - quite a few pilots in my company are EU, non-UK, citizens, so i'd have to have an ID card, and they wouldn't.
And those of you who think we are being snobby with comments about security, if you had to deal with BAA 'security' staff every day you would form the same opinion. The weakest link in the chain will still be some guy dragged out of the neares job centre, not professional pilots / engineers / ATCO's etc.
I'm sick of sanctimonious dogooders who think all this stuff is OK, because it only effects someone else.
This is one of my favourite poems which i beleive is relevent in all issues of civil liberties.
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.
Those of you that think this is OK, coz it only applies to us - think about the above!
You think we should have ID before getting on the aircraft - hey guess what - we do, its called and airside ID pass, and once we are all forced to have these big brother stazi papers do you know what we will use to get airside? yep, the same airside ID pass as today. And guess what - quite a few pilots in my company are EU, non-UK, citizens, so i'd have to have an ID card, and they wouldn't.
And those of you who think we are being snobby with comments about security, if you had to deal with BAA 'security' staff every day you would form the same opinion. The weakest link in the chain will still be some guy dragged out of the neares job centre, not professional pilots / engineers / ATCO's etc.
Just a numbered other
Profit Max:
My opposition would be a lot less if thatwas what was on offer. The UK scheme is for a card carrying every bit of info about me that the government decide. It is totally insecure, and linked to a central dtabase of such Orwellian proportion, it should scare the cr@p out of everyone.
Adatabase available to just about any public servant who feels a needto access it. Late library books anyone.We know wh you are.
And why are we being picked as first in line?
Simple. The Gov know that the British people have a deep distrust and traditional dislike for such measures.
They also have a fair regard for professionals such as us.
So by denying us access to an airside pass unless we 'volunteer' for an ID card, it can be wheeled out to the great unwashed that Airline pilots, those trustworthy individuals, all volunteered, so what could possibly be the problem with you following suit?
The ID card only contains my name, my picture, my date and place of birth, my height, my eye colour, my address and an ID card number (which changes every time you get a new ID card).
I do not really understand the reluctance of the Brits to such an ID card
I do not really understand the reluctance of the Brits to such an ID card
Adatabase available to just about any public servant who feels a needto access it. Late library books anyone.We know wh you are.
And why are we being picked as first in line?
Simple. The Gov know that the British people have a deep distrust and traditional dislike for such measures.
They also have a fair regard for professionals such as us.
So by denying us access to an airside pass unless we 'volunteer' for an ID card, it can be wheeled out to the great unwashed that Airline pilots, those trustworthy individuals, all volunteered, so what could possibly be the problem with you following suit?
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Thanks, Civil Pilot, I had a look at that site.
Buried in it is the following piece of news..
Well now, I knew about the centres, but I didn't know that Mapeley is one of the firms that will earn billions form the Great ID Card Scam.
Now Mapeley is well known as the company to which the Treasury sold all its Inland Revenue properties for a tiny fraction of their value, only to lease them back again at rates well above the market rates.
It then took all that business offshore so as to avoid paying tax on the income from the Treasury. It is registered in Guernsey, where it is represented by a solicitor with a local reputation. Another triumph for Great Britain's Treasury under good ole Gordon.
The company is essentially run by a load of shysters who have a number of polticians in their pockets. So it's no surprise that their snouts are in the ID Card Bonanza trough. The question is, which politicians and civil servants are being paid off for that? There are 4, perhaps 5 of them.
Buried in it is the following piece of news..
ID interrogation centres are being set up all around the UK (see map, left). To begin with there will be 69, on top of the existing Passport Offices. A company called Mapeley, which owns the offices of HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), was given the job of setting them up.
Now Mapeley is well known as the company to which the Treasury sold all its Inland Revenue properties for a tiny fraction of their value, only to lease them back again at rates well above the market rates.
It then took all that business offshore so as to avoid paying tax on the income from the Treasury. It is registered in Guernsey, where it is represented by a solicitor with a local reputation. Another triumph for Great Britain's Treasury under good ole Gordon.
The company is essentially run by a load of shysters who have a number of polticians in their pockets. So it's no surprise that their snouts are in the ID Card Bonanza trough. The question is, which politicians and civil servants are being paid off for that? There are 4, perhaps 5 of them.
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There seems to be some confusion here: The cariage of the National ID card will not be mandatory and you would not have to produce it going through security or indead anywhere else. It will however have to be produced when applying for a renewal or initial issue of an airport pass. As stated earlier you will not be able to get a disclosure check done without having a Nat ID.
The only added benifit would be confirmation of who you are when applying for an airport pass. However as has been already proved forgery of the proposed card is relitavely straight forward so criminal elements who want to can become 'good guys'.
Remember also that it is not just pilots but all airport staff who will be effected.
The main point of the exercise is to introduce the id card by the back door.
Most people are not against identification and proof of identity per se it is the incredibly intrusive and private information that will be colated and stored centraly by our trustworthy government that is the problem.
It will not enhance security and is potentialy a backward step.
The only added benifit would be confirmation of who you are when applying for an airport pass. However as has been already proved forgery of the proposed card is relitavely straight forward so criminal elements who want to can become 'good guys'.
Remember also that it is not just pilots but all airport staff who will be effected.
The main point of the exercise is to introduce the id card by the back door.
Most people are not against identification and proof of identity per se it is the incredibly intrusive and private information that will be colated and stored centraly by our trustworthy government that is the problem.
It will not enhance security and is potentialy a backward step.
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The fact of the matter is that the UK government is demonstrably untrustworthy and not competent to oversee this matter. That has been proved many times. And I don't just mean the present government. The civil servants must not be given this amount of control over data as they are just not able to understand what they have, the importance of it, and the responsibilities that go with that. That is a matter of record.
If I thought that my data would be safe in the hands of these people I would not object to this scheme - as long as it replaced all the other foolishness we have to put up with - but I know it will not be safe.
If I thought that my data would be safe in the hands of these people I would not object to this scheme - as long as it replaced all the other foolishness we have to put up with - but I know it will not be safe.
Last edited by DB6; 17th Feb 2009 at 10:24.
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JOFM and all the others that think these are reasonable - tell you what - why don't YOU guys trial the ID card. We'll wait a few years to see what the goverment and police do with YOUR data and then we'll see eh. Just look what Stella Rimmington, former head of the UK security services has said today. Basically the government use scare tactics about terrorism to pass laws that restrict civil liberties. I really can't understand why some people don't get it. This is purely about the government having more control over you. Many people fought and died to preserve freedoms in this country, it is beholden on us to keep up the fight and most of you are failing at that duty.
I'm sick of sanctimonious dogooders who think all this stuff is OK, because it only effects someone else.
I'm sick of sanctimonious dogooders who think all this stuff is OK, because it only effects someone else.
I do think your very much misled if you think all your information that has got you your airside pass is not already on a computer and free for the government to abuse at their will.
You missed my point entirely. The card itself is innoccuous - its like your airside pass but hell it contains a chip - and on that chip is a very limited amount of data - just enough to verify you as to who you are on the spot. Now if your thinking its the database about all you have to go through to get that card then your wrong - RFID's store very little information - its measured in bytes.
Now if you want to treat me as some sort of idiot that "does not get it" thats fine I will treat you like a 1hr trial pilot in the same respect.Like I have said all the way through this I am not a proponent of the ID card but I also say the card itself is not so much of an issue. Now if you wish to discuss the databases stored about you and the card holder then fine enter into a sensible discussion about it - I have 19 years dealing with such so I think I may have some sort of relevant input.
Just going off on an emotional this ID card is wrong and why dont you trail it is like a kid throwing toys out of a pram. Why dont you think about why the card may be good and the infrastructure behind it being at fault being a cause for concern. Although again - I will point out they SHOULD already have that information on you anyway.
I dont see above where I said it was reasonable - I did say it was understandable considering the capabilities entrustes to pilots hands.