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Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards

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Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards

Old 30th Mar 2009, 02:27
  #201 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by manrow View Post
Can someone please explain what is 'demeaning' about needing a card to gain access to what should be a high security area?
Are you for real? If after this lengthy thread and umpteen others you don't understand the difference between an ID card and an ID Database then there is possibly no hope.

I see the Government is performing to type again. Sneaking in exit Visa's with no discussion under the guise of anti-terrorism. To visit the Isle of Wight you will need to provide a photo ID. i.e Driving licence or National ID card, surprise, surprise......Stalin is alive and well and comes from Redditch...I know Spartacan has tried to raise the issue of Exit Visas before and had his thread moved...Perhaps now the misguided sole who keeps doing the moving will see the link...
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Old 30th Mar 2009, 06:48
  #202 (permalink)  
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If it's good enough for Flight International it should be good enough for PPRuNe:

Airlines prepare for new UK border control initiative

>>Airlines operating to and from the UK will soon be tasked with collecting comprehensive data from every passenger entering or leaving the country under a new government programme called e-Borders, which is expected to cost carriers £450 million ($669.2 million) in the first 10 years.

E-Borders is an initiative from the UK Home Office designed to identify any passengers that could pose a threat to homeland security before they enter the country. However, airlines are concerned about costly changes they will have to make to their reservation and departure control systems to comply with the programme, and also about a lack of information received from the government to prepare for it.

"Implementation has been a total disaster from an airline point of view," says one airline executive who prefers to remain anonymous. "E-Borders should have gone live on 2 October but we weren't even told until 24 October that it was delayed. The promises on when we would get the information were not met. The Home Office keeps putting an unrealistic timescale on us, yet they're reluctant to give the industry timely responses to our questions."<<
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Old 5th Apr 2009, 18:01
  #203 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by call100
I see the Government is performing to type again. Sneaking in exit Visa's with no discussion under the guise of anti-terrorism. To visit the Isle of Wight you will need to provide a photo ID. i.e Driving licence or National ID card, surprise, surprise......Stalin is alive and well and comes from Redditch...I know Spartacan has tried to raise the issue of Exit Visas before and had his thread moved...Perhaps now the misguided sole who keeps doing the moving will see the link...
A pretty good article on the dangers of database security and citizen's data.
Jacqui gets a taste of her ugly snooper state | Jenni Russell - Times Online

Our actions are about to be tracked and analysed from nursery to death. Forget the idea of growing out of your past; the state will never let you leave it behind. Schools will record not just your education, but also your family background and your behaviour. Fights in the playground, late attendance, trouble with your mother, an alcoholic father; it will all be there.
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Old 5th Apr 2009, 19:27
  #204 (permalink)  
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That is an excellent article....However, what are the dim and ignorant population of this Country doing about it? Nothing is the answer...........As for the nothing to hide nothing to fear brigade...They are the worse. Hopefully it will be them they come for first.
Did anyone ask if anyone wanted their children on a database?
This Government won't be satisfied until they have a totalitarian state. Where your lives and deaths are completely controlled by them.
Those that haven't given in to the apathy running through the Country should fight all of this as best they can. Try create enough momentum to force an election...It's all that can save us at the moment.
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Old 5th Apr 2009, 21:02
  #205 (permalink)  
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Agreed, call 100.

I'm inclined to think, given the obdurate nature of the fifth-raters running this dog and pony show masquerading as the British Government, a more effective approach would be to secure a guarantee from the opposition parties (in absolutely unequivocal terms) that they would scrap any ID system immediately upon assuming power.

Surely, not even this lot would proceed in the face of that?
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Old 6th Apr 2009, 12:32
  #206 (permalink)  
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I'm not a member of the tin foil hat brigade nor am I given to hyperbole but there does seem to be a worrying trend towards a situation similar to the way East Germany used to be - even to the extent of goverment adverts on the radio about spying on your neigbours to inform anything suspicious to the authorities.All in the name of countering terrorism of course!

So much information is now being gathered about us and placed in various databases run by assorted authorities and linked to one another to give a complete picture of our private and public details.Local authorities have even been using these details to prosecute residents for many trivial infractions.

Today another step towards collecting information about us comes into being.

Personal web data to be stored for a year - Home News, UK - The Independent

The mobile calls, emails and website visits of every person in Britain will be stored for a year under sweeping new powers which come into force on Monday. Privacy campaigners warned last night that the information would be used by the Government to create a giant "Big Brother" super-database containing a map of everyone's private life.

The new powers will, for the first time, place a legal duty on internet companies to store private information, including email traffic and website browsing histories.

Although the new retention powers will not permit the storage of the content of emails or phone calls it will show details such as IP addresses, date, time and user telephone numbers. Under the terms of the EU directive, the Home Office has written to leading internet service providers and phone companies offering to compensate them for the costs incurred in retaining the data for a year.
We all know another form of ID for pilots is a nonsense for the many reasons already mentioned in this thread, and I think just as bad are all the forms of invasions of privacy happening now also.
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Old 7th Apr 2009, 00:42
  #207 (permalink)  
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Have they never heard of encryption, anonymous DNS servers, anonymous peer-to-peer, VPN or the Tor network**? As for the UK's RIPA and access to one's passwords: Have the passwords kept by some trusted entity outside the UK's jurisdiction and use those encrypted & Tor-ed servers to access the 'secret' data via VPM. Sounds like their measures are aimed at the average user, not those who are really serious about keeping their web use secret.

Which begs the question: Why are they really doing it? And all the other privacy eroding projects?

**Tor is a network of encrypting, anonymising & randomising routing servers. Only the last server in a sequence of many knows what IP address your data is really going to or coming from - and that last hop wouldn't necessarily be within reach of the UK.

Blody tipos

Last edited by Tinstaafl; 7th Apr 2009 at 14:35.
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Old 7th Apr 2009, 10:36
  #208 (permalink)  
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I agree - why on earth are they doing all this, when they have been told over and over that it won't work, and will cost a fortune? I suspect that it started as a macho reaction to the post 911 Bush era, with Bush's lapdog faithfully following his master; anyway, I doubt we'll ever know.
To answer Gipsy Queen's question a few posts back, I recently wrote to my MP on this and other subjects, as requested by BALPA. The relevant part of his reply is :

"Conservatives have made it absolutely clear that should we win the next election, we would immediately scrap this scheme .... The government's latest cost estimate for providing IDs to British nationals is £4.8bn, although independent studies have suggested that this number could in fact be far higher ...."

I've never supported any particular party, but the conclusion is obvious ....
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Old 7th Apr 2009, 11:43
  #209 (permalink)  
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Why shouldn't pilots accept the introduction of ID cards for the highly sensitive areas in which they regularly work? For a very good reason:

It seems a reasonable request on the surface, which once established will then be rolled out to another section of people in this country. This will carry on until the meglomaniac government gets its wish of every Tom, Dick and Harry having an ID card just because it suits the intrusive and frankly bloody nosey government/police/security services we have in this country! Before you know it you'll be required to produce your ID card for things you woudn't credit it being reasonable for at the moment.

N.B. Churchill abolished ID cards in 1952, sighting them as a menace to the public good. A motorist refused to produce his ID card in 1950 when stopped by the police for no stated reason. When the case went to the High Court, the Law Lord presiding made the following statement, which is as valid now as it was when it was made in 1952:

"it is obvious that the police now, as a matter of routine, demand the production of national registration indemnity cards whenever they stop or interrogate a motorist for whatever cause. Of course, if they are looking for a stolen car or have reason to believe that a particular motorist is engaged in committing a crime, that is one thing, but to demand a national registration identity card from all and sundry, for instance, from a lady who may leave her car outside a shop longer than she should, or some trivial matter of that sort, is wholly unreasonable. This Act was passed for security purposes, and not for the purposes for which, apparently, it is now sought to be used. To use Acts of Parliament, passed for particular purposes during war, in times when the war is past, except that technically a state of war exists, tends to turn law-abiding subjects into lawbreakers, which is a most undesirable state of affairs. Further, in this country we have always prided ourselves on the good feeling that exists between the police and the public and such action tends to make the people resentful of the acts of the police and inclines them to obstruct the police instead of to assist them"

P.S. I'm a law abiding, tax paying, conformist member of UK society. But of course you'll be able to confirm that if ID cards are introduced, because you can be sure the system won't be secure (even the CIA central computer isn't secure remember) thus meaning once the government completes the donkey work of collecting the data, it will be lost/stolen and then appear on the internet to the highest bidder!

Happy days....
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Old 7th Apr 2009, 12:17
  #210 (permalink)  
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Dominic Grieve has said it is “high time” Labour abandon their "ill-fated" ID cards project after Jacqui Smith unveiled the design of ID cards for foreign nationals.

The Shadow Home Secretary stressed, “ID cards are an expensive white elephant that risk making us less - not more - safe.”

And he said the Government were “kidding themselves” if they think ID Cards for foreign nationals will protect against illegal immigration or terrorism - as they don't apply to those coming here for less than three months.

A Conservative Government would abandon the ID cards project, and Dominic said he hoped Labour had taken that into account when they negotiated the contracts.

You read it here second.
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Old 7th Apr 2009, 14:31
  #211 (permalink)  
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I believe, to be even handed on this, that the LibDems are also opposed to it and have said they will scrap it. In fact their concerns on Privacy and the Surveillance State are far better documented than any other party.
ID cards and the attached Data Base are being introduced for one purpose and one purpose only, State Control of it's citizens.
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Old 26th Apr 2009, 07:58
  #212 (permalink)  
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Leaked reports from government suggest that these 'ID cards may become a casualty of the severe financial cut-backs necessary to see our way through the world financial crisis'.

But since we don't believe what government say are leaks likely to be any more reliable?
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Old 26th Apr 2009, 09:09
  #213 (permalink)  
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And your source? Hope it's true!
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Old 26th Apr 2009, 22:51
  #214 (permalink)  
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Apparently the Conservative Party have said it would be one item that they would bin to save money if they get in.

BBC NEWS | Politics | Osborne warns of 'tough' choices

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Old 27th Apr 2009, 08:54
  #215 (permalink)  
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Acording to that BBC report the Consertives only said;

Mr Osborne said his party would look to cut back on expensive spending programmes such as identity cards, while also concentrating on the culture in Whitehall and public sector pay as ways to save money.

They are not saying they WILL, if that report is correct.

I'm getting woried now
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Old 28th Apr 2009, 06:48
  #216 (permalink)  
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The following comment was posted on the NO2ID website by their General Secretary:

NO2ID :: View topic - Ind: Scrap ID cards now, say Cabinet rebels

>>Please don't assume that the ID scheme is a Labour project. It is a Home Office/Cabinet Office project, that has been political endorsement by the present administration. The most recent announcements from the IPS indicate that it has been reconfigured to hibernate during a hostile administration, but that there is a strategy to box in the Tories and force them to build at least some of the infrastructure as part of passport 'modernisation'.<<
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Old 28th Apr 2009, 10:53
  #217 (permalink)  
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Please don't assume that the ID scheme is a Labour project. It is a Home Office/Cabinet Office project, that has been political endorsement by the present administration.
I see the political monkeys have trouble with their native language. Nice to see they have lost the argument to such an extent that they are saying that an idea THEY thought up, involving THEIR departments, has nothing to do with them!!

Otherwise, it's almost as comical as Gordon Brown saying, during his "apology" over the smears from his own advisers, "I take full responsibility for what happened and that is why the person who was responsible went immediately".
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Old 21st May 2009, 15:38
  #218 (permalink)  
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See Jetblast:

"Badges ? We don't need no stinking badges !"

for latest ID card Fiasco from Wacki Jacqui
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Old 28th May 2009, 17:22
  #219 (permalink)  
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Statutory instruments being snuck by

Sneaky stuff going on behind the scenes, as reported by NO2ID on 22/05/2009:

+ National Identity Cards Scheme Draft Orders laid before Parliament +

Four new Statutory Instruments under the Identity Cards Act 2006 were published last week. Statutory Instruments provide the detailed regulations which implement Acts of Parliament. One of the orders relates to designated documents - when an individual applies for a designated document that individual must apply at the same time to be entered in the National Identity Register and apply for an ID card. The order seeks to make a criminal conviction certificate (issued as part of a Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) check) for those applying for an airside pass a designated document. This is the way in which the government will force airport staff on to the ID scheme. The other orders relate to fees, Information and Code of Practice on Penalties and Provision of Information without Consent. For more details see the report on SpyBlog at

National Identity Cards Scheme creep - 4 Draft Orders laid before Parliament under the Identity Cards Act 2006 - Spy Blog - SpyBlog.org.uk
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Old 29th May 2009, 17:20
  #220 (permalink)  
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Just to clarify this. This is a post about some pilots NOT wanting to wear ID cards. Correct? I'll bet that they're happy to flash their ALPA ID Cards (or similiar) when it suits them. Hypocrites.
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