Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the out of trim status of the Q400
This is down to when you disconnect the autopilot as opposed to it always being out of trim on disconnect.
If you watch the aircraft in pitch on the glideslope next time you fly you'll see what I mean. As the aircraft is on the glideslope there is always movement in pitch to maintain the g/s as we change speed and configuration (obviously), invariably the out of trim status with the "jolt" comes when you disconnect the a/p as it is trimming for it's new state (even at Vref and configured) as it tries to remain on the g/s.
Before a/p disconnect wait until it is very stable then normally it won't happen. No aircraft will pin the g/s perfectly without a small or subtle "chase", even when fully configured and at Vref (but you already knew that )
This is down to when you disconnect the autopilot as opposed to it always being out of trim on disconnect.
If you watch the aircraft in pitch on the glideslope next time you fly you'll see what I mean. As the aircraft is on the glideslope there is always movement in pitch to maintain the g/s as we change speed and configuration (obviously), invariably the out of trim status with the "jolt" comes when you disconnect the a/p as it is trimming for it's new state (even at Vref and configured) as it tries to remain on the g/s.
Before a/p disconnect wait until it is very stable then normally it won't happen. No aircraft will pin the g/s perfectly without a small or subtle "chase", even when fully configured and at Vref (but you already knew that )
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Deano, you are only correct to a certain extent. I've flown enough sectors in the 400 to know how it flies, and I also know that like everything else on the fleet, it varies from airfarme to airframe. Some really are a complete dog.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vancouver Island
Age: 56
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If thereīs no punishment angle nor any demands being made, this lawsuit is not worth the paper itīs printed on
Widow, itīs rather obvious that these people initiated this lawsuit in order to go as public as possible, but what chances do they have of actually winning said lawsuit if they canīt produce concrete proof that the FAA failed to act in a reasonable manner in specific cases/instances? The FAA will say they have issued those 100 icing related airworthiness directives and that does not sound like a complete failure to act, in my opinion - and probably in the courtīs opinion as well.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vancouver Island
Age: 56
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My opinion of course, but it is not that the FAA completely failed to act, but that they did not act adequately.
Also, icing is not the only issue being addressed in the lawsuit.
These tidbits from another article:
DOT, FAA sued in bid to force air safety changes
Also, icing is not the only issue being addressed in the lawsuit.
These tidbits from another article:
"We know from experience that holding government accountable and putting the light of sunshine of public disclosure on these pending measures is perhaps the best and in some cases the only way to get the necessary changes that we need,"
The board also recommended that turboprop planes already in use when the testing requirements were in place should be retested and, if necessary, redesigned. But more than 12 years later, those recommendations haven't been implemented.
Dunham's lawsuit also seeks to force the FAA to take action on the NTSB's runway safety recommendations, such as installing "moving map" displays in all cockpits to alert pilots if another plane is attempting a takeoff from the wrong runway.
The FAA has undertaken several initiatives to boost runway safety, but a General Accounting Office report last fall rated the risk of runway collisions "still high."
The FAA has undertaken several initiatives to boost runway safety, but a General Accounting Office report last fall rated the risk of runway collisions "still high."
This California lawyer has been rather quick to already have filed a lawsuit on behalf of a client, against the airline(s) and Bombardier:
Plane should have been grounded, first Flight 3407 lawsuit claims : Home: The Buffalo News
Plane should have been grounded, first Flight 3407 lawsuit claims : Home: The Buffalo News
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Found in Toronto
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The tale here starts with the fact they should have never been flying a turboprop airplane into these icing conditions, equipped with these antiquated de-icing boots, he said. This is 1920s, 1930s technology, which has not been brought up to date in any revolutionary way.
The pneumatic boots on the edge of the wings expand and cause the ice to shake off, but NASA tests have shown the boots cannot clear all the ice, and there are no boots on the tail.
The next problem, Goldman said, is that the Colgan Air pilots continued flying the plane on autopilot, even as they noticed the ice building up.
What this does is, it deprives the pilots of the information of the degradation of the airplanes performance, Goldman said, because the autopilot automatically adjusts for it. So they dont know they are flying too close to the edge of a stall, at all.
What this does is, it deprives the pilots of the information of the degradation of the airplanes performance, Goldman said, because the autopilot automatically adjusts for it. So they dont know they are flying too close to the edge of a stall, at all.
He said the 1972 crash of a British European Airways flight showed that, in certain conditions, when the flaps come down and the configuration of the wings change, the plane goes into an immediate stall, and the pilot is often unable to recover.
When the nose was shoved down, he said, [the pilot] didnt understand why and followed a gut reaction rather than a trained reaction and yanked the nose way up into a super stall, causing it to spin and crash.
Public Interest Lawsuits
dhc2widow - If you think this is about anything but lawyers fronting a "public interest group" group so the lawyers can position themselves at the trough you are going to be disappointed.
Schiavo, has no credibility with anyone but herself. She is an ambulance chaser. You might want to look at her "work" on the Mesa regional jet flame out.
If you want to be taken seriously in advancing aviation safety you need to be carefull about what you post.
20driver
Schiavo, has no credibility with anyone but herself. She is an ambulance chaser. You might want to look at her "work" on the Mesa regional jet flame out.
If you want to be taken seriously in advancing aviation safety you need to be carefull about what you post.
20driver
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You might want to look at her "work" on the Mesa regional jet flame out
According to her website, Mary Schiavo - Aviation Expert Available to Media - Discuss Continental Flight 3407 Crash, Schiavo is quite the expert...
Scary Mary
I did mean the Pinnacle crash which was caused by pilots behaving badly.
Schiavo hits the news on a regular basis with some scare or another. At one point it was planes are going to fall out of the sky because of cheap counterfeit parts. The Pinnacle crash was because of core lock on the engines preventing relight. ( No mention of why the engines stopped, which was the pilots being idiots !)
None of her predictions of doom have ever come to pass but it does get her on the news and into peoples mind which is were her lawyer pals want her.
Widow - Aviation safety has never being made in lawsuits, it has being done by regulation and mindset. At the GA level there is no question lawsuits have driven suppliers out of the business, raised prices and decreased safety by driving up costs. Don't think so, try looking at what the widow Carnahan collected from Parker Hanifin and the price of vacuum pumps when Parker left the business.
If you want to be part of improving safety you need credibility with the players and the public. Scary Mary has none with the first and less and less with the later.
20driver
Schiavo hits the news on a regular basis with some scare or another. At one point it was planes are going to fall out of the sky because of cheap counterfeit parts. The Pinnacle crash was because of core lock on the engines preventing relight. ( No mention of why the engines stopped, which was the pilots being idiots !)
None of her predictions of doom have ever come to pass but it does get her on the news and into peoples mind which is were her lawyer pals want her.
Widow - Aviation safety has never being made in lawsuits, it has being done by regulation and mindset. At the GA level there is no question lawsuits have driven suppliers out of the business, raised prices and decreased safety by driving up costs. Don't think so, try looking at what the widow Carnahan collected from Parker Hanifin and the price of vacuum pumps when Parker left the business.
If you want to be part of improving safety you need credibility with the players and the public. Scary Mary has none with the first and less and less with the later.
20driver
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fairly close to the colonial capitol
Age: 55
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Soon, the media and Ms. Schiavo will be describing the events of 9/11 as something caused by United and American Airlines through their negligence.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Obvious
Age: 77
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
just for a moment
let's assume that the pilots were both pretty good pilots. just for argument's sake.
it would take alot to make the plane crash...so, I hope we are all a bit more careful in all flying, regardless of type. And that we keep our hand on the controls for all critical phases of flight..
Ever since the damn 737 rudder problem, we have written instructions to keep our hands on the controls (feet too) during low altitude stuff.
it would take alot to make the plane crash...so, I hope we are all a bit more careful in all flying, regardless of type. And that we keep our hand on the controls for all critical phases of flight..
Ever since the damn 737 rudder problem, we have written instructions to keep our hands on the controls (feet too) during low altitude stuff.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aircraft was insured under a joint hull and liability policy for Delta. (Colgan Air (owned by Pinnacle Airlines) was operating Continental connnection).
Icy weather, on autopilot, Pilot may have ignored federal safety recommendations and violated the airlines own policy for flying in such conditions??
Value of the hull US19 million. The liability limit on their policy is US1.75 billion per occurrence. Policy underwritten by Global Aerospace (the lead aviation products underwriter for Bombardier the Canadian manufacturer of the Dash 8Q400.
Icy weather, on autopilot, Pilot may have ignored federal safety recommendations and violated the airlines own policy for flying in such conditions??
Value of the hull US19 million. The liability limit on their policy is US1.75 billion per occurrence. Policy underwritten by Global Aerospace (the lead aviation products underwriter for Bombardier the Canadian manufacturer of the Dash 8Q400.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is important to remember that the auto pilot/icing thing is about severe icing...you can use the autopilot (according to FAA) in other icing situations...though this is at odds with NTSB and its view on autopilot use in icing conditions.
I remember the American Airlines DC10 in Chicagoland where the engine came off, ripped away hydraulic lines causing the slats to retract on one side...later simulations showed that if the plane had been flown FASTER than V2 it might have kept flying.
I think virtually all the recent crashes (turkey, buf) could have been avoided with another 20 knots of speed.
I am a big believer in stable approaches...but a few extra knots of speed makes some sense.
By the way, could this plane have been at a higher weight than the pilots thought, making their V speeds wrong?????????
I remember the American Airlines DC10 in Chicagoland where the engine came off, ripped away hydraulic lines causing the slats to retract on one side...later simulations showed that if the plane had been flown FASTER than V2 it might have kept flying.
I think virtually all the recent crashes (turkey, buf) could have been avoided with another 20 knots of speed.
I am a big believer in stable approaches...but a few extra knots of speed makes some sense.
By the way, could this plane have been at a higher weight than the pilots thought, making their V speeds wrong?????????
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NZWN New Zealand
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roger protectthehornet
In my view with respect to the pilots, over reliance on automation rears it's ugly head as the real cause of so many accidents these days on highly automated cockpits.
With the advent of modern automation, I think the ART of flying (seat of the pants if you will) is being lost and sometimes flying is an ART and a bit of luck.