Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
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Colgan Air began operating the Q400 about one year ago. Prior to that they also operated other turbo-props like the Saab 340.
I sincerely doubt that "time on type" had anything to do with this accident.
I sincerely doubt that "time on type" had anything to do with this accident.
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When the television stations decide to go wall-to-wall coverage, I suppose it is inevitable that the drivel content will be increased substantially.
One interview however with a witness on the ground seemed to sound more credible than usual, as he described his own driving direction (east) and stated that the aircraft which he saw was travelling in the opposite direction from normal landings and approaches to 23.
The other tidbit which keeps recurring on at least some broadcasts is to the effect that "the crew reported mechanical problems before the crash". If so, could this have been done on a company frequency and ATC totally unaware of it?
One interview however with a witness on the ground seemed to sound more credible than usual, as he described his own driving direction (east) and stated that the aircraft which he saw was travelling in the opposite direction from normal landings and approaches to 23.
The other tidbit which keeps recurring on at least some broadcasts is to the effect that "the crew reported mechanical problems before the crash". If so, could this have been done on a company frequency and ATC totally unaware of it?
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Colgan Air began operating the Q400 about one year ago.
Bombardier Grants Option Rights to Colgan Air, Inc. for 15 Q400 NextGen Aircraft
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Crew:
Capt. Marvin Renslow, joined Colgan 9/2005, 3379 flying hours with Colgan.
FAA Airman records show him type-certified on both the Dash-8 and the Saab.
FO Rebecca Shaw, joined Colgan 1/2008, 2244 flying hours with Colgan.
FAA records show her type-certified but limited to second-in-command on the Dash-8.
She was also a certified flight instructor for smaller single-engine planes.
FAs Matilda Quintero and Donna Prisco, joined Colgan 5/2008
Also aboard, off-duty Capt. Joseph Zuffoletto
Capt. Marvin Renslow, joined Colgan 9/2005, 3379 flying hours with Colgan.
FAA Airman records show him type-certified on both the Dash-8 and the Saab.
FO Rebecca Shaw, joined Colgan 1/2008, 2244 flying hours with Colgan.
FAA records show her type-certified but limited to second-in-command on the Dash-8.
She was also a certified flight instructor for smaller single-engine planes.
FAs Matilda Quintero and Donna Prisco, joined Colgan 5/2008
Also aboard, off-duty Capt. Joseph Zuffoletto
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ATC feed
captainspeaking (tab #55), the stream from LiveATC.net is from a scanner that picks up the tower, approach and departure frequencies. See U.S. Class C Airport Feeds | Live Air Traffic Control Audio Feeds | LiveATC.net
All three show up on the clip that is circulating.
All three show up on the clip that is circulating.
For this type turboprop what recommendations have been incorporated in FCOM's for icing conditions during approach?
Presumably the aircraft is certificated to land in icing conditions, but there might be minimization techniques to avoid sudden upsets?
Presumably the aircraft is certificated to land in icing conditions, but there might be minimization techniques to avoid sudden upsets?
finfly1;
I listened to that interview as well and it was a very "rational", calmly described eye-witness account - very credible, so far as eye/ear witness accounts go.
The aircraft was described as:
- Low...300, 400ft
- Descending "steeply", but he qualifed that by saying he was looking at it "up through the top of his windshield" and it was (as you say) going away from him, (so judging "steepness" from that angle is difficult - they all look "steep")
- left wing slightly low, no extreme bank angle
- landing gear "up"
- no fire anywhere on the airplane
- "unusual engine noise", but he admitted he doesn't fly that often so it all may be "unusual".
- The direction of the flight was north to northwest and not south.
The eyewitness lives in the apartment one house away from the crash-site.
The approach they appeared to be planning was the ILS - are there any NOTAMS indicating unservicabilities of the ILS system that anyone flightplanning into that area may know about?
One interview however with a witness on the ground seemed to sound more credible than usual, as he described his own driving direction (east) and stated that the aircraft which he saw was travelling in the opposite direction from normal landings and approaches to 23.
The aircraft was described as:
- Low...300, 400ft
- Descending "steeply", but he qualifed that by saying he was looking at it "up through the top of his windshield" and it was (as you say) going away from him, (so judging "steepness" from that angle is difficult - they all look "steep")
- left wing slightly low, no extreme bank angle
- landing gear "up"
- no fire anywhere on the airplane
- "unusual engine noise", but he admitted he doesn't fly that often so it all may be "unusual".
- The direction of the flight was north to northwest and not south.
The eyewitness lives in the apartment one house away from the crash-site.
The approach they appeared to be planning was the ILS - are there any NOTAMS indicating unservicabilities of the ILS system that anyone flightplanning into that area may know about?
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Originally Posted by Farrell
windshield wipers as ice-detectors
EDIT: I guess he changed his mind because he deleted his post... Or the mods deleted it for him?
Last edited by Lost in Saigon; 13th Feb 2009 at 15:20.
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TabsAZ--
I was watching Anderson Cooper until after 2am. Both he and the assisting pilot [Tillman?] mentioned that there *was* a tape, not that there was not. Also, Anderson kept trying to keep a lid on the speculation by reporting only what they knew was confirmed. I thought it was an excellent job of reporting.
I was watching Anderson Cooper until after 2am. Both he and the assisting pilot [Tillman?] mentioned that there *was* a tape, not that there was not. Also, Anderson kept trying to keep a lid on the speculation by reporting only what they knew was confirmed. I thought it was an excellent job of reporting.
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Damn
Sad, 9/11 widow killed in crash.
9/11 widow killed in crash - , - Latest news & weather forecasts - MSN News UK
9/11 widow killed in crash - , - Latest news & weather forecasts - MSN News UK
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Immediately after a ???07 was instructed to descend and maintain 6000'. The pilot replied with callsign only - no readback of level...
Is this normal practice in the States? It sounds unsafe to me. The ATCO never picked the pilots up on it either??
Is this normal practice in the States? It sounds unsafe to me. The ATCO never picked the pilots up on it either??
JC
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Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
Question for Dash-8 pilots:
Does the wing/prop/engine anti-ice system on the Dash-8 work automatically or does it have to be physically turned on in icing conditions to work? Just wondering....
Does the wing/prop/engine anti-ice system on the Dash-8 work automatically or does it have to be physically turned on in icing conditions to work? Just wondering....
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Unfortuntaely, as an ATCO, I've experienced this sort of incident before, i.e aircraft stops communicating.
Whatever was the cause, it happened very quickly and I'd be very suprised if ice was the major factor but the investigating authorities will make their fndings known ASAP.
All credit to the people in charge on the ground and their responses to the media, it's clear that their prority is to anyone on board and their relatives.
Whoever is coordinating all of the terrible events - well done to you.
Whatever was the cause, it happened very quickly and I'd be very suprised if ice was the major factor but the investigating authorities will make their fndings known ASAP.
All credit to the people in charge on the ground and their responses to the media, it's clear that their prority is to anyone on board and their relatives.
Whoever is coordinating all of the terrible events - well done to you.
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there are 5 seperate deice boots on LE of each wing, once turned to auto should operate in a sequence that shouldnt cause imbalance. IF operating normally
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Some speculation, but please check me on the facts.
It looks like (google map) and sounds like (ATC recording) that 3407 was flying towards the ILS to intercept it. I thought I heard the ATC say something about no autoland, due to variances in the ILS. So where the plane went down (about 1-2 miles north of the runway 23 centerline), looks like it might be a spot where one might disconnect the autopilot, to hand fly the ILS capture and final descent.
It looks like (google map) and sounds like (ATC recording) that 3407 was flying towards the ILS to intercept it. I thought I heard the ATC say something about no autoland, due to variances in the ILS. So where the plane went down (about 1-2 miles north of the runway 23 centerline), looks like it might be a spot where one might disconnect the autopilot, to hand fly the ILS capture and final descent.
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Icing
Ofcourse there is no idea of speculate of the reason but similar accidents have happened before. We had one in Sweden (Stockholm) long time ago where a 4 eng turboprop (vickers vicount) nosedived on short approach. That was due to heavy icing on the tail and when crew selected landingflaps the center of gravity changes rapidly and the tail could not support that with the icing and just nosedived into ground killing all omboard.
Weather that has something to do with this time will tell.
But a sad day for aviation is it nevertheless
Wings 1011
Weather that has something to do with this time will tell.
But a sad day for aviation is it nevertheless
Wings 1011
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The leading edges of the T-tail also has pneumatic de-ice boots on the Q400, in addition to those on the wing leading edges and engine intakes.
As has been said, the apparent wx conditions well within the capabilities of the 400's de-ice system provided it was operating normally. From what I recall, the system needs to be selected manually to 'ON', and once selected runs in an automatic cycle. Detection of icing conditions determined by an ice detection system (message displayed on centre EFIS screen alongside engine instruments), with additional visual cues coming from the ice detection spigot on the wiper arms, and from visual inspection of approximately 2.5m of the wings visible from the flight deck.
However, the de-ice system on the 400 is prone to minor failures (with a caution illuminating on the master warning/caution panel), requiring crews to exit & avoid icing conditions. Had this been the case, I would expect the crew would have had ample time and opportunity to alert ATC should that have been necessary.
As for the 'chainsaw' sound reported by one witness, I doubt it would be the PTU. It's operation is fairly hard to detect on board the a/c, let alone as a ground-based observer.
As has been said, the apparent wx conditions well within the capabilities of the 400's de-ice system provided it was operating normally. From what I recall, the system needs to be selected manually to 'ON', and once selected runs in an automatic cycle. Detection of icing conditions determined by an ice detection system (message displayed on centre EFIS screen alongside engine instruments), with additional visual cues coming from the ice detection spigot on the wiper arms, and from visual inspection of approximately 2.5m of the wings visible from the flight deck.
However, the de-ice system on the 400 is prone to minor failures (with a caution illuminating on the master warning/caution panel), requiring crews to exit & avoid icing conditions. Had this been the case, I would expect the crew would have had ample time and opportunity to alert ATC should that have been necessary.
As for the 'chainsaw' sound reported by one witness, I doubt it would be the PTU. It's operation is fairly hard to detect on board the a/c, let alone as a ground-based observer.