Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
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Mago, agreed. All transmissions from 3407 prior, sounded calm and relaxed, except that last one, which had a pitch and cadence change. Nothing that sounded alarming though.
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goatface, re: pressure settings. you are right, no mention of current pressure settings at all. and one more thing. Delta 1998 is approaching with arrival info S (1:45) and 2 minutes later Colgan 3407 is calling APP with Arrival info R (3:52). there's no correction from ATC re arrival information and pressure...
EDIT: anotherthing, listened to it again and have to say I missed it
EDIT: anotherthing, listened to it again and have to say I missed it
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KN77
The pressure of 29.80 was given by the ATCO and read back by the pilot of 3407 when the pilot checked in with App passing 12000' for 11000'.
Not sure the time of the transmission because the player I listened to does not have that function.
I was listening to the playback posted by flightopsab (post #6)
Edit - KN77, have you picked it up now? It's on the initial contact with Approach. Pressure was passed and acknowledged, and it is the same pressure setting that a departing aircraft is given about 10 minutes later.
The pressure of 29.80 was given by the ATCO and read back by the pilot of 3407 when the pilot checked in with App passing 12000' for 11000'.
Not sure the time of the transmission because the player I listened to does not have that function.
I was listening to the playback posted by flightopsab (post #6)
Edit - KN77, have you picked it up now? It's on the initial contact with Approach. Pressure was passed and acknowledged, and it is the same pressure setting that a departing aircraft is given about 10 minutes later.
Last edited by anotherthing; 13th Feb 2009 at 11:28. Reason: KN77 and I crossed posts
Regrettably, as we have seen before, the incident is characterised by the two operators involved each trying to divert publicity to the other.
The Continental website immediately describes it as a Colgan Airwas flight, without mentioning Continental.
The Colgan Airways website meanwhile describes it as a Continental flight.
For the passenger it is bought on the CO website, a plane with a CO flight number, a CO livery, crew in CO uniforms, and with the CO magazine placed in the seats. I do find it disappointing that the whole operation is portrayed as the Continental brand until the moment something goes wrong, then it's "nothing to do with me" on an aspect of technicality only understood within the aviation world.
The Continental website immediately describes it as a Colgan Airwas flight, without mentioning Continental.
The Colgan Airways website meanwhile describes it as a Continental flight.
For the passenger it is bought on the CO website, a plane with a CO flight number, a CO livery, crew in CO uniforms, and with the CO magazine placed in the seats. I do find it disappointing that the whole operation is portrayed as the Continental brand until the moment something goes wrong, then it's "nothing to do with me" on an aspect of technicality only understood within the aviation world.
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Plane crashed on Long St., near the intersection of Long St. and Maple St. in the town of Clarence Center, NY. The plane struck only one house, suggesting a fairly vertical descent.
I listened to the ATC recording again, and one pilot reported icing between 6500 and 3500 ft. At 2300 ft aircraft were shedding ice again. One pilot (cactus 14xx if I recall) reported accumulating ice for 10 minutes, and was wanting ATC to get him out of it (this was a couple of minutes after 3407 was reported missing).
I listened to the ATC recording again, and one pilot reported icing between 6500 and 3500 ft. At 2300 ft aircraft were shedding ice again. One pilot (cactus 14xx if I recall) reported accumulating ice for 10 minutes, and was wanting ATC to get him out of it (this was a couple of minutes after 3407 was reported missing).
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As with most aircraft just before the outer marker or the FAF the configuration is changing. Gear and flaps are being extended. In heavy icing conditions the prop RPM is increased and the autopilot is disengaged. Also the Dash is not permitted to be flown on approach single engine by the auto-pilot. This must be done manually. There is also a flap drive protection that will prevent the flaps from being extended asymmetrically. Just a few factors that may or may not have contributed.
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sad
listening to this tapes i got goosebumps....its sad and i feel for everyone involved.
Flying Turboprops in Europe i found myself very often in severe icing conditions and all i can say there must be more to this then the weather ....
It must be another chain of failures which happened to this tragic accident.
lets wait for the results ,learn from it .
Flying Turboprops in Europe i found myself very often in severe icing conditions and all i can say there must be more to this then the weather ....
It must be another chain of failures which happened to this tragic accident.
lets wait for the results ,learn from it .
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I too noticed the Continental news release that all but absolves them of any responsibility (as if any attorney can't figure that out). Continental pulls all the money strings, including the shoestring that they force their Express airlines to operate on. This is reminiscent of Delta's reaction after the Comair accident.
I find it surprising that ATC told the next Dash 8 that a company Dash had 'gone down'
Despite numerous reports of icing, only one aircraft requested an 'unrestricted' climb, and one aircraft asked for an 'unrestricted' descent.
After the confirmation of the mishap, the Air Traffic Controller was justifiable concerned with the possibilty of a fatal combination of a Q400 and ice.
Assuming the following Colgan aircraft was a Q400, I believe the controller felt obliged to pass on the information!
He was no doubt torn between his duty of care, and the knowledge of the effect his transmission would have on that crew.
A difficult night for many people.
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Unrestricted Climb
The aircraft was a departure, stopped at 5 on the SID. Probably had the sigmet, either on the ATIS or from tower about the icing. When he got stopped at 5, he did the prudent thing and asked for a higher altitude, unrestricted climb essentially informs departure that the request is not just for the view. Nothing to be read into this request as far as the icing conditions above. Done it many times
Altitude Readbacks
Not required in the US. However if you bust an altitude then the readback really changes things. If you read it back and ATC missed the mistake, then they can wear it. If you didn't read it back, and bust the altitude, then you're on your own
The aircraft was a departure, stopped at 5 on the SID. Probably had the sigmet, either on the ATIS or from tower about the icing. When he got stopped at 5, he did the prudent thing and asked for a higher altitude, unrestricted climb essentially informs departure that the request is not just for the view. Nothing to be read into this request as far as the icing conditions above. Done it many times
Altitude Readbacks
Not required in the US. However if you bust an altitude then the readback really changes things. If you read it back and ATC missed the mistake, then they can wear it. If you didn't read it back, and bust the altitude, then you're on your own
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Does the Q400 have windshield wipers or anything that would show ice accretion to the pilots?
Temp was 1C so no doubt they were using anti-ice and cycling de-icing, right?
Temp was 1C so no doubt they were using anti-ice and cycling de-icing, right?
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new, close-up photos from the crash site
Flugzeugabsturz auf New York: Feuersbrunst im Wohngebiet - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik
Flugzeugabsturz auf New York: Feuersbrunst im Wohngebiet - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik
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Does the Q400 have windshield wipers or anything that would show ice accretion to the pilots?
It also has wing inspection lights and Ice detection systems, and from my own experiance has a good de-ice/anti-ice system.
My two cents...the weather conditions REPORTED dont seem anything the DHC8 cant handle
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This may or may not be an ice related accident.. time will tell. But that said, all pilots, especially turbo-prop pilots should be made aware of the difference between a conventional wing stall caused by ice accretion and a tail stall caused by ice accretion. The tail can normally be considered to suffer greater ice accretion due to it's shape and the the recovery for a tail stall is the complete opposit to that required for a wing stall; ie. pull back on the column and maybe even (depending on the a/c type) decrease power. Mis-identification of the stall could be lethal.
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Quote: My two cents...the weather conditions REPORTED dont seem anything the DHC8 cant handle..
Let's just hope the anti-ice wasn't in the AF 737 'Onff' position...
Let's just hope the anti-ice wasn't in the AF 737 'Onff' position...
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El Lobo Solo
Some of us are dash8 pilots, some of us are Colgan air pilots, some are maintenance technicians etc the list goes on. While we are all deeply sorry for the losses that people have suffered we are all concerned and would like to share our information, experiences and technical knowledge with each other. This is a Rummour forum. No one means any disrespect.
Some of us are dash8 pilots, some of us are Colgan air pilots, some are maintenance technicians etc the list goes on. While we are all deeply sorry for the losses that people have suffered we are all concerned and would like to share our information, experiences and technical knowledge with each other. This is a Rummour forum. No one means any disrespect.
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An eye witness who saw the crash was just interviewed on CNN. He reported seeing the aircraft in a steep nose down attitude, one wing lower than the other, going away from the airport.
Sounds like a stall/spin to me.
Sounds like a stall/spin to me.