Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo

Old 13th Feb 2009, 06:16
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada/Ireland
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@Vapilot2004
There was another incident in 95' Dash 8, but the Q400 entered service in 2000

Ansett New Zealand Flight 703 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ricky1 is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 06:21
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Denmark
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

I will not guess upon the reason for the accident.
Let NTSB inform us of what has happened!
It is always sad when they happen
But here is a link to a serious incident of same type of A/C on approach in Sweden.
Even though there might be no connection between this accident and the incident in Sweden, it might be very good idea to read this report if you operate a turboprop.
http://www.havkom.se/virtupload/news/rl2007_12e.pdf

Walder
Walder is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 06:23
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ---
Posts: 282
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
wow, great professionalism from ATC indeed. My repects! All the best gents..
ray cosmic is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 06:29
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ground ear witness

ear witness reported sound from engines like that of a chain saw

could it have been a prop overspeed/runaway?

there was a report that the crew reported mx difficulties

with a modern set of recorders, I think we will know what happened within 48 hours.
protectthehornet is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 06:58
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,232
Received 21 Likes on 13 Posts
While ice (IMHO) is a prime suspect given the conditions -- like TheHornet says, it could be a chainsaw loose in the prop or a number of other things. Plenty of possibilities for the moment...

I don't normally enter into the condolence thing - but something about this one just pulls at my spirit. Sorry, sorry sorry...for the crew, the pax, the person on the ground, their families, the Colgan extended family, the controller that worked right through it....
pattern_is_full is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 07:13
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Phoenix, AZ USA
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hey if anyone from CNN is reading this - the "tape" is legit and comes from Listen to Live Air Traffic Control Communications | LiveATC.net, an enthusiast website that streams ATC communication frequencies picked up from scanners over the Internet. Anderson Cooper and a pilot commentator on there keep saying that it's unlikely that there's a tape etc... not true, this website has been around for a long time.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2009-0300Z.mp3

Initial contact with approach control ocurrs around 3:52, the crash occurs somewhere around 16 minutes or so after the aircraft is handed off to the tower.
TabsAZ is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 07:16
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Nairobi
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Large twin turbo prop

It would be interesting to see if there are any flight characteristics similar in the last few minutes of flight to that of the Indiana ATR 72 crash. See below:-

"A friend of mine at deHavilland Canada tells me that the ATR's
aileron aerodynamic balance surfaces, which are not shielded (unlike the
DHC-8), do not have anti- or de-ice protection. The fatal crash in Italy
in 1987(?) of an ATR was blamed on icing of the balance surfaces, leading
to a loss of control. Story is that the same airline came very close to
losing a second ATR the same night from the same cause! The Seattle Times
is reporting that a ATR was nearly lost over Wisconsin in 1988 due to
aileron balance surface icing and that the FAA put out an AD requiring
vortex generators to be added to fix the icing problem. There was also
mention that having the autopilot flying the aircaft in icing conditions
compounds the problem. It seems that a human flying the plane will
notice the onset of icing effects on the ailerons, but the autopilot
compensates and the first that the pilot knows of the problem is when the
aircraft suddenly rolls".
Coleman Myers is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 07:17
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oslo, Norway
Age: 63
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
xolodenko, Thursday 12th around 22:20 local time

This will be the 4th fatal accident for the DHC8, and here they are:
  • 21 NOV 1990 - DHC-8-100 - Bangkok Airways - HS-SKI - on approach to Koh Samui Airport (USM) - 33 of 38 on board died
  • 06 JAN 1993 - DHC-8-300 - Lufthansa Cityline - D-BEAT - landing at Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport (CDG) - 4 of 23 on board died
  • 09 JUN 1995 - DHC-8-100 - Ansett New Zealand - ZK-NEY - on approach to Palmerston North Airport (PMR) - 4 of 21 on board died
  • 12 FEB 2009 - DHC-8-400 - Colgan Air - N200WQ - on approach to Buffalo Niagara International Airport (BUF) - 48 of 48 on board died + one on the ground

For the DHC-8-400 (Q400) there has been a number of accidents/incidents without fatalities, and the majority of them are connected to undercarriage failure.
LN-KGL is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 07:20
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Any Dash drivers care to describe a normal configuration change at the marker in IMC? Do you put the props in high pitch, drop the gear and add flaps?

From the audio links, and location of the crash site, looks like something bad happened right at glide slope intercept at 2300 feet.

Does the Dash have a history of split flaps?
Airbubba is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 08:02
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 61
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My two cents worth..........maybe refrozen residues of thinkened de-/anti-icing fluid and therefore blocked horizontal stabi or blocked aileron?

Air Accidents Investigation Branch: DHC-8-311, G-BRYU

I know there are special maintenance procedures (washing with hot water or unthickended de-icing fluid) to reduce the residues because the problem is well known.
jettrail is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 08:05
  #31 (permalink)  
AlwaysOnFire
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: **** you PPRUNE!
Age: 24
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unhappy

vapilot2004, yes, with the Q400, three other fatal crashes with the Dash-8 all in all (this is the most deadly of those four). 27 accidents listed on http://www.aviation-safety.net
alexmcfire is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 08:18
  #32 (permalink)  
Gender Faculty Specialist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Stop being so stupid, it's Sean's turn
Posts: 1,903
Received 9 Likes on 7 Posts
Airbubba, I've not flown the Q400 for a while but...Some models have a reduced Np setting which allows approaches and landings with props at 850rpm (Cruise setting). Without Reduced Np I can't really remember when the props go to max (Probably dependant on company SOP's) but there is no in flight limit as to when you can use them (IIRC), handy for losing height as it's quite a slippery machine. Gear down and flaps are usually 15 before the glide and depending on landing setting stay there or go to 35.

The ice protection is pretty good. Each wing has boots but they are separated into four sections along each wing and cycle from out to in with the inboard ones cycling alternately. Also engine intake boots cycle alternately.
Chesty Morgan is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 08:21
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Found this on USA Today - an interesting comment ref: SAS...

'New era' as Continental begins Q400 flights at Newark - Today In the Sky - USATODAY.com
TeddyRuxpin is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 08:38
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Correr es mi destino por no llevar papel
Posts: 1,422
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
A friend of mine at deHavilland Canada tells me that the ATR's
aileron aerodynamic balance surfaces, which are not shielded (unlike the
DHC-8), do not have anti- or de-ice protection.
Not true. Horn balances are electrically heated. ATR drivers are extremely familiar with "level 2 anti-icing".
The fatal crash in Italy in 1987(?) of an ATR was blamed on icing of the balance surfaces, leading to a loss of control
Not true. It was stall exacerbated by ice accretion. It was only blamed, by some misinformed folks, on ailerons icing post-Roselawn. ATRs are (surprise, surprise) not jets. Early ones have no truckloads of extra power and sometimes in icing, the only way is down - MCT power, red bug and let the altitude slowly bleed off if you can't afford rapid descent.

Q400 is not ATR.

Any speculation about causes of the Buffalo accident are practically worthless until the NTSB has its preliminary say.
Clandestino is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 09:16
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sawing sound reported...

...could it be the PTU in the hyd. system? Not sure of the exactly architecture on the Q400 but know it has a PTU. ButI suppose unlikely to be heard above the engines....Just my tuppence worth.
Hydroman400 is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 09:35
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Dallas, TX USA
Posts: 739
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From the ATC recording, sounds like ice accretion reported by several aircraft both north and south of the airport, from maybe 5000 to 2300, around the time 3407 went down.
Flight Safety is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 09:36
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I find it surprising that ATC told the next Dash 8 that a company Dash had 'gone down' short of the runway and 'didn't make it'. I think I'd find that an enormous distraction and would certainly rather find out once on the ground after shut down. Anyway, how come the ATC tape is available, isn't it protected by law like it is in the UK?
Mungo Man is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 09:46
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Tenerife, sometimes?
Age: 59
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
On the atc
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2009-0300Z.mp3

At the mark 15:17 there was a readback from the crew and maybe it is me but the voice sounded nervious, please sombody else hear that and say what is your opinion.
Mago is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 10:04
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Finland
Age: 43
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I noticed that also. Took them fairly long time to read back. Quick and nervous "3407" and nothing else. Didn't sound normal to me.
FlyPete is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2009, 10:06
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 55
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Doesn't sound particularly nervous to me... sounds like a normal readback...

Andrew
alehead is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.