Korean Air intercepted by German Fighters

[Muzza]

An interesting thread for sure. Of note is the lack of criticism of ATC here. Like all others I probably miss the odd call, as I would imagine most other airline pilots do, from time to time. Tired...very busy frequency, very poor ATC English mixed with...French, Spanish, Dutch, Italian, Greek, Russian, Chinese, Korean, Portugese,...on and on, etc, etc.....all contribute.

But I would bet I do not miss as many calls as the number of times ATC fails to inform me of a frequency change when at or approaching an FIR boundary. It is a frequent occurence, worldwide.

Yes my awarness should overcome the problem, and I have charts to refer to, where the next frequency can be obtained, or 121.5 if neccesary, when it isnt picked up. But lets get real here, Korean is not the first airline that this has happened to, nor will it be the last. I listened to various people trying to raise a Nigel on 121.5 not so long ago, for quite a long period of time, after an oceanic crossing. The KAL incident should never of happened, it is poor, to say the least, and there is nothing to be gained by defending them, but........

I think its time to get real, stopping bagging KAL,and the many others who arent perfect, and look to ways to address the problem of some bloody pitiful ATC around the world, both first and third, which contributes massively to this kind of incident.

[Phantom Driver]

I'll drink to that.

[54fighting]

Silence is Expensive

That 1:40 minutes of silence adds up to $500,000 U.S., out of the Korean
Air coffers. German government doesn't scramble intercept aircraft for free. Well done gents.

[Jofm5]

As per article on Aviation Herald today it was 1hr 40 mins.(The Aviation Herald)

The airline reported, that the crew had missed the frequency change as the airplane entered German airspace, but continued to track their filed route. 2 pilots have been suspended.

[simyoke]

The latest media report on the 100-minute-incommunicado

Below is what I wrote for another forum.

The report has it that both of them were having their meals without wearing their headsets; the boom mic gets in the way if (s)he does not take the headset off while eating. One thing that makes this explanation fishy is the fact that they usually leave the (Loud) speaker on and turn up the volume while munching so as to listen to the directions from the ATC.
Anyhow, for the whole 100 minute-incommunicado, one thought the other was in contact with the controller.
They don't seem to talk much in the flightdeck. Another case of bad CRM.

It must have been quite interesting when the TCAS alert and resolution advisories went off right before the fighters popped up close enough to see the faces of the freighter crew.

[Kuranda Express]

I think that Europe needs to have a central " Eurozone " control with less frequency changes. The current 833.3 Khz VHF frequencies in use are prone to mistuning and " miscopying " by pilots whose first language is not English; add in the various German, French, Italian and Eastern European accents...we have a recipe for disaster. Do like what we have in Central America........cenamer control, etc. It isn't so difficult in a radar environment to have a South/ North/East/West/Central Euro control with less frequency changes. Only snag, some job losses and fewer ATCO bosses to build their own little fiefdoms

[stickyb]

Question from non-pilot.

In an event such as this (as opposed to an actual crash) would there be an inquiry and subsequent public report?

[threemiles]

I think that Europe needs to have a central " Eurozone " control with less frequency changes. The current 833.3 Khz VHF frequencies in use are prone to mistuning and " miscopying " by pilots whose first language is not English; add in the various German, French, Italian and Eastern European accents...we have a recipe for disaster. Do like what we have in Central America........cenamer control, etc. It isn't so difficult in a radar environment to have a South/ North/East/West/Central Euro control with less frequency changes. Only snag, some job losses and fewer ATCO bosses to build their own little fiefdoms

The number of ATC sectors and frequency changes in Europe has to do with the pure volume of traffic. Even ignoring state borders (there IS an Eurocontrol) there would not be less frequency changes. Traffic levels in Central America cannot be compared with those in Europe. In Central Europe areas even upper air space is split vertically split into up to 4 sectors to cope with demand (see FFM or Zürich). The observation that 8.33 MHz freqs can be mistuned is right as about 20% (own, non-representative count) of all frequency change instructions crerate a reconfirmation request by the pilot. Has nothing to do with the naitve language and accents, but 6 numbers is much to remember. But even with a mistuned freq one can return to the previous freq if only diligent tuning procedures are used.

[Willit Run]

I spend probably 90 percent of my flying in the international arena. Through the years transitioning from round type steam powered gauges to the modern EFIS cockpits, I have noticed an alarming trend toward complacency. Maps?, "we don't need no stinking maps". With all that information right infront of us, rarely do we need to look at a map if all is going well. Well, not all goes well as often as we'd like. Now, I'm not perfect, but I do try to have all the maps available and have the pertinent one open for that sector. Looking ahead at the entry and exit points for the next country is a big help in anticipating a frequency change. I really don't like being caught with my pants down and knowing when to expect something just makes the whole job easier. Kinda like the simulator!

With so many people chatting away on 121.5, having that turned down is not a good idea, but you have to sometimes with all that excess jabbering going on.

As long as we have humans in the system, we are going to have these problems. Fortuneatly, we also have the brain power to correct our mistakes if we recognize one. A little discipline goes a long way.

[Lon More]

Kuranda Express As stated there is a Eurocontrol which provides ATC in the Upper Air Space (FL245+) from Maastricht UACC. Parts of the airspace are amongst the busiest and most complicated in Europe. Although extending over four sovereign states national boundaries are frequently ignored in the interest of traffic flows.

[400drvr]

Investigation?

You bet there will be. But first thing to happen was the Captain was forced to resign and they want the FO on duty to do the same.

[simyoke]

What the company did

Yes, you're right. The F/O was offered a "voluntary resignation." and the capt. tendered his resignation before the company told him to do so.
I guess the company is unwilling to look more closely in to the matter, find out what the underlying cause of the problem might have been and corral a remedy.

[changer]

The (The Aviation Herald) article says 4 crew. Assuming 2 of them were in the bunks at the time, but did KAL punish them too?

[Flap62]

Muzza,

We all miss freq changes occasionally and if the calls on 121.5 were in the uk FIR the "nigels" might not have heard it because BA744s do not monitor 121.5 at the moment due to a problem with it triggering the auto DF response from D&D.

[boofhead]

You guys must have the airline mis-identified. It could not be Korean. See below:

Korea's Aviation Safety Ranked First in World

When it comes to air travel, Korean airliners may be the safest way to fly.

The UN's International Civil Aviation Organization says Korea ranked first for aviation safety so far with a 98.89 percent performance rating by international standards. The organization's rating was introduced in 1995 in the wake of a rising number of accidents in the early 90s.

The UN organization still has about 70 more countries to evaluate before the ranking is complete.

Digital Chosunilbo (English Edition) : Daily News in English About Korea

[captplaystation]

Tongue firmly in cheek

[Muzza]

Canadian airspace, but not really my point.

[ComJam]

TCAS

SimYoke

TCAS should not have "warned off" at all, Interceptor SOP is to switch the Mode 3 Transponder to standby prior to intercepting.