Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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One wonders who, in fifteen years time, will be flying US domestic planes. Presumably not people who have had fifteen years and thousands of hours flying alongside people like Capt. Sullenberger or his co-pilot...
BWIA MD83 strikes ducks departing Crown Point Tobago. ZQA
Perhaps the captain of this flight could post about his experiences about ten or more years ago when a BW MD83 took of from Tobago at night and experienced multiple bird strikes. One engine ingested seven North American migratory ducks and the other five. They were able to keep one engine running (barely) and make an immediate return to the island. Both engines were totally ruined and it was by extreme good fortune they did not have to do a power off night ditching in the Caribbean Sea.
ZQA was it you?
ZQA was it you?
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Very interesting passenger recount of the events
The Aviation Herald Last Update: Tuesday, Mar 3rd 2009 10:48Z
3296 Articles available
Events from Apr 20th 2004 to Mar 2nd 2009
Accident: US Airways A320 at New York on Jan 15th 2009, ditched in Hudson River
By Simon Hradecky, created Tuesday, Mar 3rd 2009 10:48Z, last updated
Tuesday, Mar 3rd 2009 10:48Z
Bill Nix was passenger on the flight, which began perfectly normal, the usual routine briefing occured, and the departure went normal. Bill was seated in 25B next to the last seat row and chatted with a fellow passenger seated in 25A during the departure, when he heard a noise that he thought was an explosion in the belly of the plane.
The aisle became hazy with smoke, smell of fuel developed. "There was the most unnatural silence at this time and it all seems unreal." The engine sounds had stopped, the noise from the air conditioning ceased. "I looked at the guy next to me in 25A and he at me but we did not say a word, just a look of disbelief." Bill realized they had lost power and the airplane had started to descend. Bill thought for the first time they were going to die. The silence was interrupted by a passenger a few rows forward, who stated one of the engines was on fire. Then it got silent again. Bill feared the aircraft might explode with one engine on fire and the tanks full of fuel. They were over New York City with nothing but buildings below and they were descending fast. The thought they were going to die crossed his mind a second time.
When Bill looked out of the window, they were below the tops of the buildings already and he realized, they were heading for the river. "At the time that seemed to be a good thing, we may survive after all. I heard nothing, not even the wind, until the pilot said brace for impact, then a small child started crying." The "brace for impact" brought it all home, that they were in big trouble. "We had a very rough landing, almost as soon as we hit the water we felt water splashing into our faces and by the time we stopped it was about ankle deep." The water had been spraying through the floor though no cracks were visible. The touchdown and slow down felt like a long hard vibration, as only the tail hit water at first then the rest of the airplane came down about a second or two later. No jolts were felt during the slow down.
"A lot of people rushed to the back of the plane and tried to exit the rear door, the flight attendant shouted 'no the door is under water go out the front'. That was the third time I thought I may die, this time from drowning." Still, a number of folks tried to open the rear doors, one person forced the way to the door and opened the door a little. Flight attendant Doreen Welsh physically stopped the door from opening all the way preventing the airplane from completely filling with water. Bill was in water up to waist level within a few seconds. Bill was sure, that had the door been fully opened, the people near the rear of the airplane would have all drowned as they were packed together trying to get out, so that they could not have turned around quickly enough.
Bill headed forwards, a big bottleneck formed at the overwing exits, the entire front of the airplane was empty. FA Welsh shouted that people should go to the forward doors, but people still wanted to get out through the wing exits. She shouted, that people should climb over the seats to reach the forward doors, some of the passengers actually crawled over the seats. Bill got past the middle doors and went out the left passenger door into the raft. He immediately called his wife via mobile phone telling her he was okay.
Around 70% of the people were already outside of the airplane either on the wings or in the rafts, when the first boat arrived, then a second joined and many more arrived. "I began to feel pretty good. All we had to do was deal with the frigid water and cold air a few more minutes." The plane was sinking and drifting, the raft was still attached to the aircraft and the sinking plane threatened to take the raft with it. "The pilot asked someone on the boat to throw us a knife which they did and he cut us away from the plane, so I guess there was actually four times that day I thought I was gone."
"I was picked up by, I believe a tour boat, the Athena. A great place to be, on a warm boat headed to land. We were taken to the NY side and pier 78. Soon we had a lot of support from the Red Cross, fire department, police etc, we got warm and partially dry. Buses were provided to take us to a hotel, I went to the Holiday Inn Crowne Plaza at LGA. They had a room set up for us to check in and food. They had assigned me a room for the night and I had a key in about three minutes. Everyone through out the whole process was wonderful. I slept very little that night, got up at 5:00 the next morning and was met by a USAIR representative who had arranged a car for the airport and had our tickets. She walked us through check in and security, got us boarded about 45 minutes before the boarding process, also introduced us the the pilot who promised us a smooth flight, and it was."
"We were fortunate to have Captain Sullenberger as our pilot but I don't think most people realize that flight attendant Welsh may have saved dozens of lives by stopping someone from opening the back door and letting the river rush in. She was very active from the time of the bird hit until everyone was out of the plane, even with her injuries she did a great job."
Being back on dry ground passengers started to chat to each other. "Most talk was about the frigid water and everyone wanted to say thank you to the pilot, even then we realized we were lucky to have him. Most could not believe it happened so quickly and we were ok and on land. The one thing I heard the most and I thought of the most was how could this happen and everyone on board lived. With something of this magnitude you almost expect disaster."
"I talked to and heard recounts of the landing from people up front and it was like talking to someone in a different plane. I think the back of the plane absorbed most of the impact. Some people up front told me it was almost like a normal landing. It was a different story in the back."
"So far I have not been in another plane, but I'm sure I will soon. I am having some good days and some bad days and a few sleepless nights, but it will get better with time. For now it's just good to be here", Bill Nix closed his account.
Original link here, at the avherald.com
3296 Articles available
Events from Apr 20th 2004 to Mar 2nd 2009
Accident: US Airways A320 at New York on Jan 15th 2009, ditched in Hudson River
By Simon Hradecky, created Tuesday, Mar 3rd 2009 10:48Z, last updated
Tuesday, Mar 3rd 2009 10:48Z
Bill Nix was passenger on the flight, which began perfectly normal, the usual routine briefing occured, and the departure went normal. Bill was seated in 25B next to the last seat row and chatted with a fellow passenger seated in 25A during the departure, when he heard a noise that he thought was an explosion in the belly of the plane.
The aisle became hazy with smoke, smell of fuel developed. "There was the most unnatural silence at this time and it all seems unreal." The engine sounds had stopped, the noise from the air conditioning ceased. "I looked at the guy next to me in 25A and he at me but we did not say a word, just a look of disbelief." Bill realized they had lost power and the airplane had started to descend. Bill thought for the first time they were going to die. The silence was interrupted by a passenger a few rows forward, who stated one of the engines was on fire. Then it got silent again. Bill feared the aircraft might explode with one engine on fire and the tanks full of fuel. They were over New York City with nothing but buildings below and they were descending fast. The thought they were going to die crossed his mind a second time.
When Bill looked out of the window, they were below the tops of the buildings already and he realized, they were heading for the river. "At the time that seemed to be a good thing, we may survive after all. I heard nothing, not even the wind, until the pilot said brace for impact, then a small child started crying." The "brace for impact" brought it all home, that they were in big trouble. "We had a very rough landing, almost as soon as we hit the water we felt water splashing into our faces and by the time we stopped it was about ankle deep." The water had been spraying through the floor though no cracks were visible. The touchdown and slow down felt like a long hard vibration, as only the tail hit water at first then the rest of the airplane came down about a second or two later. No jolts were felt during the slow down.
"A lot of people rushed to the back of the plane and tried to exit the rear door, the flight attendant shouted 'no the door is under water go out the front'. That was the third time I thought I may die, this time from drowning." Still, a number of folks tried to open the rear doors, one person forced the way to the door and opened the door a little. Flight attendant Doreen Welsh physically stopped the door from opening all the way preventing the airplane from completely filling with water. Bill was in water up to waist level within a few seconds. Bill was sure, that had the door been fully opened, the people near the rear of the airplane would have all drowned as they were packed together trying to get out, so that they could not have turned around quickly enough.
Bill headed forwards, a big bottleneck formed at the overwing exits, the entire front of the airplane was empty. FA Welsh shouted that people should go to the forward doors, but people still wanted to get out through the wing exits. She shouted, that people should climb over the seats to reach the forward doors, some of the passengers actually crawled over the seats. Bill got past the middle doors and went out the left passenger door into the raft. He immediately called his wife via mobile phone telling her he was okay.
Around 70% of the people were already outside of the airplane either on the wings or in the rafts, when the first boat arrived, then a second joined and many more arrived. "I began to feel pretty good. All we had to do was deal with the frigid water and cold air a few more minutes." The plane was sinking and drifting, the raft was still attached to the aircraft and the sinking plane threatened to take the raft with it. "The pilot asked someone on the boat to throw us a knife which they did and he cut us away from the plane, so I guess there was actually four times that day I thought I was gone."
"I was picked up by, I believe a tour boat, the Athena. A great place to be, on a warm boat headed to land. We were taken to the NY side and pier 78. Soon we had a lot of support from the Red Cross, fire department, police etc, we got warm and partially dry. Buses were provided to take us to a hotel, I went to the Holiday Inn Crowne Plaza at LGA. They had a room set up for us to check in and food. They had assigned me a room for the night and I had a key in about three minutes. Everyone through out the whole process was wonderful. I slept very little that night, got up at 5:00 the next morning and was met by a USAIR representative who had arranged a car for the airport and had our tickets. She walked us through check in and security, got us boarded about 45 minutes before the boarding process, also introduced us the the pilot who promised us a smooth flight, and it was."
"We were fortunate to have Captain Sullenberger as our pilot but I don't think most people realize that flight attendant Welsh may have saved dozens of lives by stopping someone from opening the back door and letting the river rush in. She was very active from the time of the bird hit until everyone was out of the plane, even with her injuries she did a great job."
Being back on dry ground passengers started to chat to each other. "Most talk was about the frigid water and everyone wanted to say thank you to the pilot, even then we realized we were lucky to have him. Most could not believe it happened so quickly and we were ok and on land. The one thing I heard the most and I thought of the most was how could this happen and everyone on board lived. With something of this magnitude you almost expect disaster."
"I talked to and heard recounts of the landing from people up front and it was like talking to someone in a different plane. I think the back of the plane absorbed most of the impact. Some people up front told me it was almost like a normal landing. It was a different story in the back."
"So far I have not been in another plane, but I'm sure I will soon. I am having some good days and some bad days and a few sleepless nights, but it will get better with time. For now it's just good to be here", Bill Nix closed his account.
Original link here, at the avherald.com
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So a less 'strong' & assertive FA than Ms Walsh might have resulted in a tragic outcome... she deserves a special award IMHO!
Up to her shoulders at times in freezing water and with an injury, she kept her head and did her job. Probably the real hero?
Up to her shoulders at times in freezing water and with an injury, she kept her head and did her job. Probably the real hero?
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Their are several bird detection radar systems either in production or under development. Some outstanding work has been done with the hardware and software to provide bird species identification, flock number estimates and future flight path predictions.
What has not been developed yet is how the aviation industry will use this information. How will airports use it for strategic and tactical wildlife management? How will ATS providers use the information? How will pilots use the information?
Much like GPWS/EGPWS and windshear detection the challenge is figuring out how to practically and effectively integrate the available tools into the system.
In essence we are at the "proof of concept" and field trial stage in development. Our industry will need to devote resources to developing the processes to use the product output.
What has not been developed yet is how the aviation industry will use this information. How will airports use it for strategic and tactical wildlife management? How will ATS providers use the information? How will pilots use the information?
Much like GPWS/EGPWS and windshear detection the challenge is figuring out how to practically and effectively integrate the available tools into the system.
In essence we are at the "proof of concept" and field trial stage in development. Our industry will need to devote resources to developing the processes to use the product output.
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Interesting comment about the flight attendant.
As SLF in Asia, I felt very uncomfortable on Korean Airlines as the FAs were too young and more eye candy than someone I could trust in an emergency. Yes I know they are well trained, but still...
One of the few things I like about Air Canada and Air India the times I flew them was that the FAs were older, mature and seemed mostly to have had their families, thus giving me the feeling that if an emergency occured, they would more likly have the ability to deal with it (basically the ability to take charge and do an effective job with the 200 odd babies on board).
As SLF in Asia, I felt very uncomfortable on Korean Airlines as the FAs were too young and more eye candy than someone I could trust in an emergency. Yes I know they are well trained, but still...
One of the few things I like about Air Canada and Air India the times I flew them was that the FAs were older, mature and seemed mostly to have had their families, thus giving me the feeling that if an emergency occured, they would more likly have the ability to deal with it (basically the ability to take charge and do an effective job with the 200 odd babies on board).
I felt very uncomfortable on Korean Airlines as the FAs were too young and more eye candy than someone I could trust in an emergency. Yes I know they are well trained, but still...
Now you're going to get me to look at the next FA on a US long haul and wonder if they could fit through the overwing exit door.
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At 24, Holly could speak 4 languages plus English, had a degree in Nursing and was a IIIBravo in Karate. 110 pounds, 5 foot 2, made Eva Green look skanky. She worked for PanAm until the Shah hired her away.
FA's are the most under appreciated professionals in the mix.
AF
FA's are the most under appreciated professionals in the mix.
AF
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TeachMe
If you live in Seoul you'll have realised by now that an Asian girl at 35 looks the same age as an American at 20.
And if you'd ever been involved in cabin crew training at Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines, you'd know that it means TRAINING. i.e. you learn to perform or you're OUT.
P.S. some Air-India ladies are best said to waddle, not walk. Certainly not glide!
And if you'd ever been involved in cabin crew training at Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines, you'd know that it means TRAINING. i.e. you learn to perform or you're OUT.
P.S. some Air-India ladies are best said to waddle, not walk. Certainly not glide!
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Edward Tufte: Geese taking flight (at 300 frames per second)
airfoilmod;
Absolutely the truth. Without the false flattery about "award-winning F/A's crap one hears every so often, in my welcome-on-board PAs I always told my passengers that the F/A's were on board primarily for their safety and that as captain, the F/A's had my full support in all their duties and I thanked them for giving the same (support). As a passenger I have heard other captains say roughly the same thing - it pleasantly but clearly lets everyone on board know where the buck stops. It sets a professional tone and expectations and lets them know they're valued so they (the passengers) should do the same. We were requested by the company that when deadheading or even riding on a pass, that when the emergency briefings were played, we were to stop what we were doing, put down our newspapers/books/headsets and pay attention, simply to set an example.
I still see passengers with thongs (the foot variety) or shoes kicked off for takeoff/landing. The situational awareness isn't very good.
FA's are the most under appreciated professionals in the mix.
I still see passengers with thongs (the foot variety) or shoes kicked off for takeoff/landing. The situational awareness isn't very good.
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Award? Hero? Under appreciated? I realize it's natural to celebrate a fortunate outcome and thereby the people who did a fine job in ensuring that outcome, but let's not lose all perspective. Just looking at the facts, as objectively as I can (considering my complete lack of credenditials in aviation), it seems to me that things were far from perfect in this incident.
* The FAs appeared not to be aware that they were landing on the Hudson, situational awareness at least not on super-hero level.
* Lots of passengers evacuated without any floatation device, had the ferries not arrived quickly, one would expect quite a few casualties. It turned out also there was no particular urgency in evacuating, the plane floated just fine, although this is easy to state in retrospect. But the ideal handling of the situation would include more pax with vests/floatation, taking slightly longer to get out.
* In the channel 4 documentary, I belive one of the passengers were instructed by a FA to jump out into the water, without floatation device. There were better options available, to put it mildly.
* The aft door, yes a FA "heroically" managed to close it partly, but it's clearly a failure that it was opened in the first place. Perhaps it was unavoidable or close to it, but until that's established I tend to think a stronger and more assertive FA could have prevented the opening in the first place. Ironically, he/she probably wouldn't be pegged a hero in that case.
Regardless of my nitpicking (which I hope is appropriate and not complete off, despite not being celebratory in its nature), this incident certainly stands out as a prime example of how intelligent decision making and good craftmanship can avert a potential disaster. Hope you professionals can use this newfound respect and karma for something more innovative than the mind-numbing nagging about the safety briefing.
* The FAs appeared not to be aware that they were landing on the Hudson, situational awareness at least not on super-hero level.
* Lots of passengers evacuated without any floatation device, had the ferries not arrived quickly, one would expect quite a few casualties. It turned out also there was no particular urgency in evacuating, the plane floated just fine, although this is easy to state in retrospect. But the ideal handling of the situation would include more pax with vests/floatation, taking slightly longer to get out.
* In the channel 4 documentary, I belive one of the passengers were instructed by a FA to jump out into the water, without floatation device. There were better options available, to put it mildly.
* The aft door, yes a FA "heroically" managed to close it partly, but it's clearly a failure that it was opened in the first place. Perhaps it was unavoidable or close to it, but until that's established I tend to think a stronger and more assertive FA could have prevented the opening in the first place. Ironically, he/she probably wouldn't be pegged a hero in that case.
Regardless of my nitpicking (which I hope is appropriate and not complete off, despite not being celebratory in its nature), this incident certainly stands out as a prime example of how intelligent decision making and good craftmanship can avert a potential disaster. Hope you professionals can use this newfound respect and karma for something more innovative than the mind-numbing nagging about the safety briefing.
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I agree with the above post. I'm glad that there were no fatalities. But, I've heard that one engine was at 35% N1 all the way to the water. The crew did not select TOGA. I'll let the Airbus experts here opine what this means.
Bob
Bob
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rcallahan - wtr to one engine being at 35% N1...my a/c engines idle at approx. 25-30% N1 at low altitude/airspeed. Different engines on the A320 so 31% N1 might be a reasonable estimate for an idling engine.
Based on that observation I wouldn't be surprised if one engine was stuck at idle and the other engine(12-15% N1?) was still running but obvious N1 damage was preventing the fan from spinning at the typical idle RPM.
Based on that observation I wouldn't be surprised if one engine was stuck at idle and the other engine(12-15% N1?) was still running but obvious N1 damage was preventing the fan from spinning at the typical idle RPM.
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misd-agin:
I addressed the 35% N1 observation, with my own conjecture, in post 1641.
I have 33+ years in the turbine engine business, and I've been known to be wrong, but I believe the engines were barely self-sustaining. Time will tell in this case.
I addressed the 35% N1 observation, with my own conjecture, in post 1641.
I have 33+ years in the turbine engine business, and I've been known to be wrong, but I believe the engines were barely self-sustaining. Time will tell in this case.
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barit - the term I've heard as a pilot is 'low idle stall'. The engine is running but will not accelerate. That's what I meant by "stuck at idle".
I think we're saying the same thing.
I think we're saying the same thing.
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Another term for the same thing: "Off-idle hangup" or "Off-idle stumble". At one time on a well-known engine, it could occur on a bleed-off takeoff. N2 would hang, but EGT slowly rose. It could be overcome simply by turning bleeds on.
Sully's bird already had bleeds on.
Sully's bird already had bleeds on.