Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Err, perhaps it was reported?
....and that US Airways prefers a pilot to carry less than full fuel....
would condensation be a factor? Could an engine go through a series of stalls from water contamination in the fuel and be damaged to the point that the damage is not noticed until tasked?
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Apparently not the geese, at least not in these numbers. A few years ago the CAA wrote this:
See: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1437/srg_a...-01-030303.pdf
In the 1970s and 1980s the population of geese was
such that goose strikes were rare. Hence the
probability of a multiple engine incident was
considered extremely remote. However the Canada
Goose population in North America has increased
from 2 million in 1990 to 5.7 million today 10, and the
trend continues.
In 1953 the then small, and previously stable, UK
population of about 3,000 geese began to increase at
an average rate of about 8% per year. The UK goose
population was over 73,000 by 1991 and has now
reached around 130,000 11.
such that goose strikes were rare. Hence the
probability of a multiple engine incident was
considered extremely remote. However the Canada
Goose population in North America has increased
from 2 million in 1990 to 5.7 million today 10, and the
trend continues.
In 1953 the then small, and previously stable, UK
population of about 3,000 geese began to increase at
an average rate of about 8% per year. The UK goose
population was over 73,000 by 1991 and has now
reached around 130,000 11.
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Now that we know this same a/c experienced a compressor stall in the right engine 2 days earlier....and that US Airways prefers a pilot to carry less than full fuel....would condensation be a factor? Could an engine go through a series of stalls from water contamination in the fuel and be damaged to the point that the damage is not noticed until tasked? Is a compressor stall so routine that they go unreported?
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The Hero Thing
I think most if not all professional pilots would:
Engage their Brain, experience, and training presented with a similar challenge. Out come notwithstanding.
I've (We've) been tossing this around, for several days. The agreement is basically, Hero? Hmmm. not really.
Captain Sullenberger's actions (and solutions) were elegant and exquisitely performed. What was he to do? Turn down the assignment Fate had arranged? Or even consider anything but doing, again, what his training and experience commanded?
The non flying, actually, non-airline folk, act resentful at the thought that this is perhaps not Heroism. Not to be taken for granted by anyone, certainly, but expected, because his passengers depend on him and FO Skiles. Calm? Professional, Creative, Dependable. Predictable. The Captain just lives down the road, I hope to meet and speak with him someday. I've met him before, so many times, over a long length of Time.
I think to call him Hero, to make him wear that odd badge, to suit people who truly don't understand the nature of the exercise, is unfair.
AF
Engage their Brain, experience, and training presented with a similar challenge. Out come notwithstanding.
I've (We've) been tossing this around, for several days. The agreement is basically, Hero? Hmmm. not really.
Captain Sullenberger's actions (and solutions) were elegant and exquisitely performed. What was he to do? Turn down the assignment Fate had arranged? Or even consider anything but doing, again, what his training and experience commanded?
The non flying, actually, non-airline folk, act resentful at the thought that this is perhaps not Heroism. Not to be taken for granted by anyone, certainly, but expected, because his passengers depend on him and FO Skiles. Calm? Professional, Creative, Dependable. Predictable. The Captain just lives down the road, I hope to meet and speak with him someday. I've met him before, so many times, over a long length of Time.
I think to call him Hero, to make him wear that odd badge, to suit people who truly don't understand the nature of the exercise, is unfair.
AF
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First, let me admit that I am only SLF. However, I *have* read all 52 pages of this thread, so perhaps I get a bit of credit... 
Two questions/comments:
1. Perhaps in this case - with aircraft intact, wings to stand on, and boats coming - it is better that the majority of the passengers did not don life vests. Let's be honest - if folks had put them on, a good number would have inflated them inside the aircraft. If they had, perhaps everyone would not have gotten out.
2. There did not seem to be nearly enough life rafts (slide rafts, or whatever you choose to call them). They appeared to be nearly full, and it appeared at least half the people were standing on the wings. If boats had not been nearby, or the aircraft had broken up, people would have died from hypothermia due to immersion regardless of whether they had vests on. If the back doors are going to be unusable in the event of a water landing, then it seems the possible 'raft' capacity of the rear slide should be ignored. Moving the slide to the front of the plane while the aircraft is sinking just isn't going to happen.
Am I wrong?
Two questions/comments:
1. Perhaps in this case - with aircraft intact, wings to stand on, and boats coming - it is better that the majority of the passengers did not don life vests. Let's be honest - if folks had put them on, a good number would have inflated them inside the aircraft. If they had, perhaps everyone would not have gotten out.
2. There did not seem to be nearly enough life rafts (slide rafts, or whatever you choose to call them). They appeared to be nearly full, and it appeared at least half the people were standing on the wings. If boats had not been nearby, or the aircraft had broken up, people would have died from hypothermia due to immersion regardless of whether they had vests on. If the back doors are going to be unusable in the event of a water landing, then it seems the possible 'raft' capacity of the rear slide should be ignored. Moving the slide to the front of the plane while the aircraft is sinking just isn't going to happen.
Am I wrong?
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jugofpropwash
jugofpropwash
1. to be honest. it would be IDEAL to have the lifevests on. It is true that boats are coming in and the plane is not sinking (quickly). But to add more safety in the case that the aircraft begins to sink rapidly, they would still float on the water even if they don't know how to swim.
In the case of people inflating there lifevests prematurely. That would totally depend on the person itself. Even if the crew was highly experienced and instructed all the passengers. Some would still be panicking in that situation and might instinctively react to inflate the vest, making it harder for them to go out of the exits specially the overwing exits which is smaller than the doors. and ofcourse if they do jump in the water which is very cold, hypothermia might kill them if the rescuers werent there to pull them out quickly.
2. In the case that there were not enough life rafts. I can definitely assure you that there is enough for all the passengers even at full load. The life rafts at the aft doors were not inflated and only the ones in the FWD doors are inflated. ( as you can see in the pic, they have no choice but to stay on the wings, since they cant use the aft emergency slides which doubles up as a life raft when detached from the aircraft)
1. to be honest. it would be IDEAL to have the lifevests on. It is true that boats are coming in and the plane is not sinking (quickly). But to add more safety in the case that the aircraft begins to sink rapidly, they would still float on the water even if they don't know how to swim.
In the case of people inflating there lifevests prematurely. That would totally depend on the person itself. Even if the crew was highly experienced and instructed all the passengers. Some would still be panicking in that situation and might instinctively react to inflate the vest, making it harder for them to go out of the exits specially the overwing exits which is smaller than the doors. and ofcourse if they do jump in the water which is very cold, hypothermia might kill them if the rescuers werent there to pull them out quickly.
2. In the case that there were not enough life rafts. I can definitely assure you that there is enough for all the passengers even at full load. The life rafts at the aft doors were not inflated and only the ones in the FWD doors are inflated. ( as you can see in the pic, they have no choice but to stay on the wings, since they cant use the aft emergency slides which doubles up as a life raft when detached from the aircraft)
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Subsonic-
>2. In the case that there were not enough life rafts. I can definitely assure you that there is enough for all the passengers even at full load. The life rafts at the aft doors were not inflated and only the ones in the FWD doors are inflated. ( as you can see in the pic, they have no choice but to stay on the wings, since they cant use the aft emergency slides which doubles up as a life raft when detached from the aircraft)
But that's what I'm saying - there may be plenty of rafts, but are there enough USABLE rafts? The rafts at the back doors aren't going to be of much use if the back doors won't open, or alternately, if you flood the aircraft opening them.
>2. In the case that there were not enough life rafts. I can definitely assure you that there is enough for all the passengers even at full load. The life rafts at the aft doors were not inflated and only the ones in the FWD doors are inflated. ( as you can see in the pic, they have no choice but to stay on the wings, since they cant use the aft emergency slides which doubles up as a life raft when detached from the aircraft)
But that's what I'm saying - there may be plenty of rafts, but are there enough USABLE rafts? The rafts at the back doors aren't going to be of much use if the back doors won't open, or alternately, if you flood the aircraft opening them.
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Andy, you have never operated a 320 out of LGA. Having flown for the real US Airways out of LGA summer and winter, I've never had to do a bleeds off take off. Andy, bleeds off max power when deicing out of ORD? or EWR as an fo? No wonder we got those eternal memos about flexing with no contamination. Get a grip and go back to your poker game.
I suspect it was a "Bleeds Off" takeoff, which may have helped the situation immeasurably.
Deicing was being done in LGA, and even if you don't deice yourself, a bleeds off takeoff (APU running, supplying air for packs) will stop a lot of the stink of sucking up Deicing fluid on the runway, AND that crap is slick and a lot ends up on the runway, so I tend to always go bleeds off/MAXpower when deicing is being done (regardless of whether or not I deiced)especially at LGA with the short unforgiving runways.
If the APU was running for takeoff then there was no rat deployment at all, full electrics were always available, and a simple push of the yellow electric pump would restore much of the hydraulics if the engines weren't even windmilling.... On the otherhand, to restore the blue system the RAT manual deploy button would have to be pushed with the APU running...
IF the APU wasn't running, then the crew was even busier (though they may have immediately pushed the start switch at the beginning of the event) will be interesting to see.
Good job all around, can't wait to read the cvr transcripts and the reports...
Cheers
Wino
I suspect it was a "Bleeds Off" takeoff, which may have helped the situation immeasurably.
Deicing was being done in LGA, and even if you don't deice yourself, a bleeds off takeoff (APU running, supplying air for packs) will stop a lot of the stink of sucking up Deicing fluid on the runway, AND that crap is slick and a lot ends up on the runway, so I tend to always go bleeds off/MAXpower when deicing is being done (regardless of whether or not I deiced)especially at LGA with the short unforgiving runways.
If the APU was running for takeoff then there was no rat deployment at all, full electrics were always available, and a simple push of the yellow electric pump would restore much of the hydraulics if the engines weren't even windmilling.... On the otherhand, to restore the blue system the RAT manual deploy button would have to be pushed with the APU running...
IF the APU wasn't running, then the crew was even busier (though they may have immediately pushed the start switch at the beginning of the event) will be interesting to see.
Good job all around, can't wait to read the cvr transcripts and the reports...
Cheers
Wino
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Rafts
Reading ALL the transcripts so far and listening to the actual survivors on TV, the Raft on the port side - over wing did inflate but turned turtle, they tried twice to turn it right side up without success due to the very slippery surface of the wing. It can be still be seen draped behind the wing in later pics including the pics when the plane was towed against the bank when the wing is in the air
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I fear we have to be a bit careful with the wording here.
Definitions:
A SLIDE is mainly designed for use in the evacuation of an aircraft on 'terra firma'. Typically found on Short/Medium-Range aircraft as the A320.
A SLIDE-RAFT is a bigger version of a slide (typically 2-lane) which features additional survival-equipment (water, foot, roof, rows, pressure re-regulation, manual inflation) an ist meant to carry 30-50 of peole for longer periods of time.
Slides and Slide-Rafts are Self-Inflating if doors are opened in 'Flight Mode' (sometimes called 'Automatic Mode') and can be detached from the airframe after inflation.
A RAFT is a portable, self-inflating version of the Slide-Raft (less the slide funtionality) and has to be manually brought into the water after a ditching.
In my airline the A320 does only carry SLIDES, even when operating over extendes water areas. No rafts are required by certification authorities. Obviously a slide can support a couple of PAX for a limited amount of time (limited as there is no way to re-regulate the slide pressure).
Our Intercontinental Jets like A330, A340, B744 feature SLIDE-RAFTS and portable RAFTS with a total capacity way in excess of the passenger capacity of the aircraft.
The Slides of the accident aircraft definitely look like our slides, not sure if AI offers SLIDE-RAFTS on the A320 as an option after all.
The A320-Overwing-Exits features a more complex, two-lane slide 'around-the-corner-down-the-wing' to get people quickly down the wing in an evac-scenario. I doubt that it will be of much use in a ditching.
Regards, MAX
Definitions:
A SLIDE is mainly designed for use in the evacuation of an aircraft on 'terra firma'. Typically found on Short/Medium-Range aircraft as the A320.
A SLIDE-RAFT is a bigger version of a slide (typically 2-lane) which features additional survival-equipment (water, foot, roof, rows, pressure re-regulation, manual inflation) an ist meant to carry 30-50 of peole for longer periods of time.
Slides and Slide-Rafts are Self-Inflating if doors are opened in 'Flight Mode' (sometimes called 'Automatic Mode') and can be detached from the airframe after inflation.
A RAFT is a portable, self-inflating version of the Slide-Raft (less the slide funtionality) and has to be manually brought into the water after a ditching.
In my airline the A320 does only carry SLIDES, even when operating over extendes water areas. No rafts are required by certification authorities. Obviously a slide can support a couple of PAX for a limited amount of time (limited as there is no way to re-regulate the slide pressure).
Our Intercontinental Jets like A330, A340, B744 feature SLIDE-RAFTS and portable RAFTS with a total capacity way in excess of the passenger capacity of the aircraft.
The Slides of the accident aircraft definitely look like our slides, not sure if AI offers SLIDE-RAFTS on the A320 as an option after all.
The A320-Overwing-Exits features a more complex, two-lane slide 'around-the-corner-down-the-wing' to get people quickly down the wing in an evac-scenario. I doubt that it will be of much use in a ditching.
Regards, MAX
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I also fly A320 and reading the above posts:-
1. Ours have standard slides, which as mentioned above, are meant to be used only as FLOTATION devices, they are not like the proper rafts you find on a long-haul aircraft.
2. We use packs off as standard for take off, they go on at 1500 feet when the power is reduced (and we have APU off for take-off). If this was the case here then the aircraft never would have been pressurised. Equally, the packs could have been on for take-off or the APU could have been running supplying the packs but at low level the aircraft still wouldn't have been pressurised.
1. Ours have standard slides, which as mentioned above, are meant to be used only as FLOTATION devices, they are not like the proper rafts you find on a long-haul aircraft.
2. We use packs off as standard for take off, they go on at 1500 feet when the power is reduced (and we have APU off for take-off). If this was the case here then the aircraft never would have been pressurised. Equally, the packs could have been on for take-off or the APU could have been running supplying the packs but at low level the aircraft still wouldn't have been pressurised.
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Pilots not marketers
I too am a frequent SLF who has read all 52 pages of this thread (including some of the postings which have been apparently subsequently whisked away by the mods) and have found them both entertaining and informative, so thank you all.
A couple of comments.
Firstly, don't fall into the trap of taking things too literally or semantically. There have been a variety of posts about the lack of recognition for the entire crew, the repugnance about the apparent hero worship of 'Sully" as well as the ignorance of the media.
I reckon we all know and believe it was crew effort; almost any professional pilot on this forum could have done the same thing; "Sully" is no super-hero, just a superbly competent professional; and journalists get things wrong (frequently). And in additon, the fates or gods conspired to line up a perfect series of circumstances to pull this one out of the fire.
But human beings are simple creatures. As any good marketer will tell you, they love a great, and well articulated, story. And turning Sully into a hero and making the whole deed heroic is part of that human need for story telling - it allows everyone to engage with the incident.
You should all bask in the reflected glory bestowed on the profession, without worrying too much about whether the facts are entirely correct or what the dictionary defintion of 'hero' may be. Every individual on that plane got home eventually despite the fact that it had two engines out. What an outcome! Sure, there will be serious lessons to be learned from it but don't try too hard to kill the amazing story, because it is the story which will be the conduit for the power of those lessons.
The second point I'd make is that I may occassionally bury my head in a newspaper during a safety briefing, but don't patronise me for it. I do so because I can quite literally recite the safety briefing (almost any one of them on any aircraft type in Asia, Euorope or the US) rote. I do not take my life or safety lightly and I always familiarise myself with the locations of the exits and the position of the life vests (or seat cushions) prior to take off. I also run through a quick mental check list of what I would do in the event of an emergency.
So may pilots seem to have expressed in these pages that they hope if a similar set of circumstances occured to them, they would act in a similar manner to this flight crew. Similalrly I hope that, as SLF, I would do the right thing 'in the unlikley event of an emergency'. But I may not. Not because I fail to pay attention to the safety briefing or give it the gravitas it deserves, but simply because I am human.
We never know how we will react until we are tested.
Cut the SLF's some slack. They may not have donned their life vests as they should have but they are human.
Most importantly, they all got home.
Thanks and kudos to the crew, the aircraft, the circumstances, the profession, the fates, the gods, the glider pilot rating and also to human frailty as well as human achievement.
And spare a thought for the poor geese as well.
A couple of comments.
Firstly, don't fall into the trap of taking things too literally or semantically. There have been a variety of posts about the lack of recognition for the entire crew, the repugnance about the apparent hero worship of 'Sully" as well as the ignorance of the media.
I reckon we all know and believe it was crew effort; almost any professional pilot on this forum could have done the same thing; "Sully" is no super-hero, just a superbly competent professional; and journalists get things wrong (frequently). And in additon, the fates or gods conspired to line up a perfect series of circumstances to pull this one out of the fire.
But human beings are simple creatures. As any good marketer will tell you, they love a great, and well articulated, story. And turning Sully into a hero and making the whole deed heroic is part of that human need for story telling - it allows everyone to engage with the incident.
You should all bask in the reflected glory bestowed on the profession, without worrying too much about whether the facts are entirely correct or what the dictionary defintion of 'hero' may be. Every individual on that plane got home eventually despite the fact that it had two engines out. What an outcome! Sure, there will be serious lessons to be learned from it but don't try too hard to kill the amazing story, because it is the story which will be the conduit for the power of those lessons.
The second point I'd make is that I may occassionally bury my head in a newspaper during a safety briefing, but don't patronise me for it. I do so because I can quite literally recite the safety briefing (almost any one of them on any aircraft type in Asia, Euorope or the US) rote. I do not take my life or safety lightly and I always familiarise myself with the locations of the exits and the position of the life vests (or seat cushions
) prior to take off. I also run through a quick mental check list of what I would do in the event of an emergency. So may pilots seem to have expressed in these pages that they hope if a similar set of circumstances occured to them, they would act in a similar manner to this flight crew. Similalrly I hope that, as SLF, I would do the right thing 'in the unlikley event of an emergency'. But I may not. Not because I fail to pay attention to the safety briefing or give it the gravitas it deserves, but simply because I am human.
We never know how we will react until we are tested.
Cut the SLF's some slack. They may not have donned their life vests as they should have but they are human.
Most importantly, they all got home.
Thanks and kudos to the crew, the aircraft, the circumstances, the profession, the fates, the gods, the glider pilot rating and also to human frailty as well as human achievement.
And spare a thought for the poor geese as well.
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One aspect of the behaviour of the geese as discussed here seems to concentrate on them having been disturbed and subsequently taking flight into the path of aircraft taking off, however it seems likely that these particular birds were in transit through the zone. No amount of ground patrols or scaring measures would affect these birds from following their long-established migratory routes.
Geese do move locally from roosts to feeding grounds and it is maybe this behaviour that should be studied with respect to this incident, in particular the times of day when these 'local' flights (of the geese) occur.
Geese do move locally from roosts to feeding grounds and it is maybe this behaviour that should be studied with respect to this incident, in particular the times of day when these 'local' flights (of the geese) occur.
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Well said
Every individual on that plane got home eventually despite the fact that it had two engines out. What an outcome!
It is an amazing outcome indeed ... all the holes in the cheese lined up!