Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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My most severe bird strike experience.
My engines digested a few B1RDs during my career. But one I will not forget.
xxx
On takeoff at Lagos, route Luxembourg-Lagos-Johannesburg, cargo flight, type 747-246F (ex JAL), engines JT9D-7Q, registry 9G-MKI, operator MK Cargo, date NOV 2000, late morning.
xxx
I was on a 3 months 747 pilot training contract with MK as this was their first 747. All trainees were experienced DC8 pilots. Aircraft T/O weight was somewhat heavy, probably about 350 tonnes. The trainee was FP for this sector. Good guy, we had flown 2 or 3 sectors together.
xxx
We lined-up on the runway, takeoff South, to proceed overwater straight-out, no obstacles to clear. On the West side of the runway, a wooded area. I had noticed a "bird shooter" walking near the runway, with an old 12-gage on the shoulder.
xxx
Cleared for takeoff, F/O advanced the power, "making noise" probably gave the "Nigerian Air Force B1RDs" a takeoff clearance as well. When we were at some 100-120 knots, I noticed a flock of big birds coming from the trees and crossing our runway. Too late, and by then too fast and too heavy to consider to reject takeoff. F/O rotated at VR, called GEAR UP and at same time, some 30 ft AGL, we hit the B1RD Nig.AF Squadron, they were mostly on our RH side. Boom, bang, feathers, vibrations, fire bell, red light...!
xxx
As the F/O was flying perfectly and by the book, I did all PNF duties with the assistance of the F/E. Engine fire, then severe damage check-list, just telling the F/O "go straight, continue". I feared we lost 2 of the RH engines, but soon realized it was nº4 only. We discharged one fire bottle, N1 was very low, EGT rapidly decreasing... maybe some N2 windmilling indications.
xxx
Initially, I considered continuing on 3 motors to Jo'Burg... good maintenance and probably spare engines there. F/O was busy increasing speed, calling flaps retraction step by step. We wanted V2+80 to get flaps up, but right around 200/220 knots the vibration got worse, shaking the plane.
xxx
F/O looked through the window, he told me the nº4 engine was shaking up/down on the pylon, as well as the outer wing section flapping up/down as well. We had a ground engineer and loadmaster on board as well. So, going to Jo'Burg appeared impossible, and under any circumstances would I go back to Lagos. So we got MK's boss Mike Kruger on the phone through STO Radio. Bottom line was "proceed to Accra", about 45 minutes or so West...
xxx
We flew there with Flaps 1, at about 200 KIAS, below FL200 as it is max FL with flaps not up. Engine and wing vibrated the entire time. I took the airplane for approach and landing into Accra. No further events.
xxx
One thing I learned, in the bad damage of bird ingestion, the fan was seriously "out of balance" and caused the vibration when windmilling, making it impossible to reach flaps retraction speed, which was about 240 for us at that weight. End of story, we did a 3 engine ferry some 2 days later to Luxembourg to get another engine, with the fan "caged" to prevent windmilling (and vibrations) by cargo pallet straps attached through the blades. And I got a few beers to the F/O and F/E, they performed an excellent job.
xxx
I have no bird casualty list, maybe got printed in the Lagos Times.
Happy contrails
xxx
On takeoff at Lagos, route Luxembourg-Lagos-Johannesburg, cargo flight, type 747-246F (ex JAL), engines JT9D-7Q, registry 9G-MKI, operator MK Cargo, date NOV 2000, late morning.
xxx
I was on a 3 months 747 pilot training contract with MK as this was their first 747. All trainees were experienced DC8 pilots. Aircraft T/O weight was somewhat heavy, probably about 350 tonnes. The trainee was FP for this sector. Good guy, we had flown 2 or 3 sectors together.
xxx
We lined-up on the runway, takeoff South, to proceed overwater straight-out, no obstacles to clear. On the West side of the runway, a wooded area. I had noticed a "bird shooter" walking near the runway, with an old 12-gage on the shoulder.
xxx
Cleared for takeoff, F/O advanced the power, "making noise" probably gave the "Nigerian Air Force B1RDs" a takeoff clearance as well. When we were at some 100-120 knots, I noticed a flock of big birds coming from the trees and crossing our runway. Too late, and by then too fast and too heavy to consider to reject takeoff. F/O rotated at VR, called GEAR UP and at same time, some 30 ft AGL, we hit the B1RD Nig.AF Squadron, they were mostly on our RH side. Boom, bang, feathers, vibrations, fire bell, red light...!
xxx
As the F/O was flying perfectly and by the book, I did all PNF duties with the assistance of the F/E. Engine fire, then severe damage check-list, just telling the F/O "go straight, continue". I feared we lost 2 of the RH engines, but soon realized it was nº4 only. We discharged one fire bottle, N1 was very low, EGT rapidly decreasing... maybe some N2 windmilling indications.
xxx
Initially, I considered continuing on 3 motors to Jo'Burg... good maintenance and probably spare engines there. F/O was busy increasing speed, calling flaps retraction step by step. We wanted V2+80 to get flaps up, but right around 200/220 knots the vibration got worse, shaking the plane.
xxx
F/O looked through the window, he told me the nº4 engine was shaking up/down on the pylon, as well as the outer wing section flapping up/down as well. We had a ground engineer and loadmaster on board as well. So, going to Jo'Burg appeared impossible, and under any circumstances would I go back to Lagos. So we got MK's boss Mike Kruger on the phone through STO Radio. Bottom line was "proceed to Accra", about 45 minutes or so West...
xxx
We flew there with Flaps 1, at about 200 KIAS, below FL200 as it is max FL with flaps not up. Engine and wing vibrated the entire time. I took the airplane for approach and landing into Accra. No further events.
xxx
One thing I learned, in the bad damage of bird ingestion, the fan was seriously "out of balance" and caused the vibration when windmilling, making it impossible to reach flaps retraction speed, which was about 240 for us at that weight. End of story, we did a 3 engine ferry some 2 days later to Luxembourg to get another engine, with the fan "caged" to prevent windmilling (and vibrations) by cargo pallet straps attached through the blades. And I got a few beers to the F/O and F/E, they performed an excellent job.
xxx
I have no bird casualty list, maybe got printed in the Lagos Times.
Happy contrails
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Ditchings
Wikipedia has articles of the following ditchings:-
US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tuninter Flight 1153 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Garuda Indonesia Flight 421 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ethiopian Airlines Flight 961 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ALM Flight 980 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Japan Airlines Flight 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tupolev 124 ditching in Neva River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pan Am Flight 943 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I can add two more to the list. the Boeing 307 ditching at Seattle in 2002 and the Dutch Dakota Association's loss of PH-DDA off Texel in 1996.
US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tuninter Flight 1153 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Garuda Indonesia Flight 421 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ethiopian Airlines Flight 961 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ALM Flight 980 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Japan Airlines Flight 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tupolev 124 ditching in Neva River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pan Am Flight 943 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I can add two more to the list. the Boeing 307 ditching at Seattle in 2002 and the Dutch Dakota Association's loss of PH-DDA off Texel in 1996.
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Super VC-10 -
xxx
There were others, athough your Wikipedia list is quite well documented.
One I recall also is a SAS DC8 ditching on approach to LAX... in the 1960s?
One other JAL, a DC8 captain going "banzai" in Tokyo Bay, mental reasons.
I recall also a Sudan Air 707 dipping in the Nile South of Khartoum.
The National 727 landing in Pensacola (I mentioned that one earlier here).
And there probably are many others.
xxx
Notoriously, often, many, when not all passengers got out ok.
But we know, US Air 1549 will become a textbook example in classrooms.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
There were others, athough your Wikipedia list is quite well documented.
One I recall also is a SAS DC8 ditching on approach to LAX... in the 1960s?
One other JAL, a DC8 captain going "banzai" in Tokyo Bay, mental reasons.
I recall also a Sudan Air 707 dipping in the Nile South of Khartoum.
The National 727 landing in Pensacola (I mentioned that one earlier here).
And there probably are many others.
xxx
Notoriously, often, many, when not all passengers got out ok.
But we know, US Air 1549 will become a textbook example in classrooms.
xxx
Happy contrails
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Ornithology and pilots...
I recall a Pan Am Academy big meeting of instructors and pilots, late 1980s.
Subject was bird strikes, probably we had scored a few in preceeding weeks.
A few things we discussed was birds avoidance.
And yes, there was a bird expert, maybe a zoologist or ornithologist.
My only interest in birds is when they are in my dish.
xxx
First thing, is our weather radar.
Some say "put WX Radar ON" for takeoff, as it scares the birds.
But our question was (we dumb pilots), what do they do when scared...?
Do they decide to takeoff, as you scare them with your microwaves.
Or do they digest their last worm in the grass, until you are gone.
So, WX Radar, there was no consensus as to what was better.
xxx
Then we learned about the birds, and how they get their licence to fly.
The chicken expert ornithologist, told us that birds have a wind sock.
Our feathered friends went to a FTO to learn to takeoff AGAINST the wind.
Just like our aeroplanes and Skygods do.
Bird tailwind limitations unknown to me, sorry.
xxx
So, our turkey expert told us, they will takeoff upwind.
Flock of birds RH of runway, and wind coming from your LH, they will cross your path.
Apparently, birds use existing wind to improve their second segment gradient.
They forgot to disregard the wind factor in their theory classes.
And radar or not, your engine noise will scare them = bird takeoff clearance.
xxx
Sorry if I upset the UK Audubon Society, for me, my bird interest is KFC...
And in any case, I prefer an Argentina filet cube, medium rare.
And this 3 hours PanAm meeting was for the birds, anyway.
xxx
Happy contrails
Subject was bird strikes, probably we had scored a few in preceeding weeks.
A few things we discussed was birds avoidance.
And yes, there was a bird expert, maybe a zoologist or ornithologist.
My only interest in birds is when they are in my dish.
xxx
First thing, is our weather radar.
Some say "put WX Radar ON" for takeoff, as it scares the birds.
But our question was (we dumb pilots), what do they do when scared...?
Do they decide to takeoff, as you scare them with your microwaves.
Or do they digest their last worm in the grass, until you are gone.
So, WX Radar, there was no consensus as to what was better.
xxx
Then we learned about the birds, and how they get their licence to fly.
The chicken expert ornithologist, told us that birds have a wind sock.
Our feathered friends went to a FTO to learn to takeoff AGAINST the wind.
Just like our aeroplanes and Skygods do.
Bird tailwind limitations unknown to me, sorry.
xxx
So, our turkey expert told us, they will takeoff upwind.
Flock of birds RH of runway, and wind coming from your LH, they will cross your path.
Apparently, birds use existing wind to improve their second segment gradient.
They forgot to disregard the wind factor in their theory classes.
And radar or not, your engine noise will scare them = bird takeoff clearance.
xxx
Sorry if I upset the UK Audubon Society, for me, my bird interest is KFC...
And in any case, I prefer an Argentina filet cube, medium rare.
And this 3 hours PanAm meeting was for the birds, anyway.
xxx
Happy contrails
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Only a matter of days before the first lawsuits are filed...
WSJ LawBlog: Can the Passengers of Flight 1549 Sue for Emotional Distress?
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Quote:
Only a matter of days before the first lawsuits are filed...
Only a matter of days before the first lawsuits are filed...
WSJ LawBlog: Can the Passengers of Flight 1549 Sue for Emotional Distress?
Be lucky
David
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Reuse of "Incident-related" aircraft components
All,
The person who asked the question whether any parts would be re-used opens a can of worms. There is a movement in the industry to eradicate this practice - and in most major airlines and aviation communities, particularly the USA there is an acceptance that components will be supplied with "trace and a non-incident statement". Trace is defined as a paperwork trail usually to the last operator and sometimes (depending on the life and overhaul intervals of the component) back to birth. A key element of this trace is a step by step log of each company's hands the component has passed through. Along with this each company will certify, either using form ATA106 or by a signed and stamped letter that the part identified by Part Number and Serial number has not been involved in an incident or accident and has not been immersed in salt water or subjected to stress or heat exposure.
Some people even consider that the use of a component on a simulator can expose the component to "stress" and therefore will not complete the ATA106 form.
In the UK the CAA released AWN17 which covered the guidance of how to treat these parts. It has now been replaced by an EASA notice - I'm not sure which one.
The key to all this is what should be considered a reportable incident or accident...This I would suggest is a total write off. However parts from the BA 777 at LHR could well be salvageable
. In this case however I know that BA are adamant that these parts will be destroyed - an honourable position that cost them a great deal.
My company has an absolute policy of not touching incident related parts - I would encourage all airlines to adopt this stance.
Hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue even more.
The person who asked the question whether any parts would be re-used opens a can of worms. There is a movement in the industry to eradicate this practice - and in most major airlines and aviation communities, particularly the USA there is an acceptance that components will be supplied with "trace and a non-incident statement". Trace is defined as a paperwork trail usually to the last operator and sometimes (depending on the life and overhaul intervals of the component) back to birth. A key element of this trace is a step by step log of each company's hands the component has passed through. Along with this each company will certify, either using form ATA106 or by a signed and stamped letter that the part identified by Part Number and Serial number has not been involved in an incident or accident and has not been immersed in salt water or subjected to stress or heat exposure.
Some people even consider that the use of a component on a simulator can expose the component to "stress" and therefore will not complete the ATA106 form.
In the UK the CAA released AWN17 which covered the guidance of how to treat these parts. It has now been replaced by an EASA notice - I'm not sure which one.
The key to all this is what should be considered a reportable incident or accident...This I would suggest is a total write off. However parts from the BA 777 at LHR could well be salvageable
. In this case however I know that BA are adamant that these parts will be destroyed - an honourable position that cost them a great deal.My company has an absolute policy of not touching incident related parts - I would encourage all airlines to adopt this stance.
Hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue even more.
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Birdstrikes (one or multiple) are so diverse in their nature, that actaually planning for every scenario is difficult and in similar circumstances, replication of the actions may not be appropriate.
For example, in Alaska in the 1990's, a USAF E3 'Sentry' took major multiple birdstrikes (geese) just at Vr and losing 2 engines; eventually the ac crashed, killing all aboard. No long after, a NATO E3 suffered a multiple birdstrike (hawks and starlings) on take-off in Greece (at high speed, before Vr and, I think, just after V1) but they carried out an RTO/abort and not suprisingly, the ac over-ran the end of the runway. This time, however, as the birds had caused little damage to ac and engines, the crew were heavily criticised.... but at least they were all alive!
What would you have done in those circumstances - without the benefit of hindsight?
Having hit a number of birds in my time (all at different phases of flight), I feel that manufacturers and trainers probably do not give enough thought or open guidance about 'actions on'. In fairness, it may be because of my opening line - every birdstrike can be different. However, it may be because of the potential litigation in case the advice is inappropriate?
Whatever the reason, it should NOT preclude individual pilots taking some time to consider the what if's of birdstrikes (not to mention unplanned ditching).
This accident has reminded me that it is time to give birdstrikes some more thought. Here's my list for starters.
eg Birdstrike occurs @
- before 80/100kts on T/O.
- just before V1.
- just after Vr.
- before flap retraction.
- in climb, cruise or descent.
- during approach and configurating.
- on finals.
- during the flare.
- after T/D.
Contributing factors;
Big birds/small birds?
How many?
Seen/not seen/heard/not heard?
Tell ATC?
Engine indications ok/degraded/recovered/power avail?
Change configuration or not?
Fire/severe damage/eng shut down - checklists v fly the ac?
Visual inspection possible from inside/outside ac?
Low speed handling check possible/appropriate?
Airfield facilities - rwy length/xwind/fire services/engineering/commercial etc?
Cabin crew aware?
and, or course if things are really bad, maybe to select suitable area for crash or ditching + handling techniques thereof!
I for one think that 'Sully' and his crew did a fantastic job - bravos all round!
flipster
For example, in Alaska in the 1990's, a USAF E3 'Sentry' took major multiple birdstrikes (geese) just at Vr and losing 2 engines; eventually the ac crashed, killing all aboard. No long after, a NATO E3 suffered a multiple birdstrike (hawks and starlings) on take-off in Greece (at high speed, before Vr and, I think, just after V1) but they carried out an RTO/abort and not suprisingly, the ac over-ran the end of the runway. This time, however, as the birds had caused little damage to ac and engines, the crew were heavily criticised.... but at least they were all alive!
What would you have done in those circumstances - without the benefit of hindsight?
Having hit a number of birds in my time (all at different phases of flight), I feel that manufacturers and trainers probably do not give enough thought or open guidance about 'actions on'. In fairness, it may be because of my opening line - every birdstrike can be different. However, it may be because of the potential litigation in case the advice is inappropriate?
Whatever the reason, it should NOT preclude individual pilots taking some time to consider the what if's of birdstrikes (not to mention unplanned ditching).
This accident has reminded me that it is time to give birdstrikes some more thought. Here's my list for starters.
eg Birdstrike occurs @
- before 80/100kts on T/O.
- just before V1.
- just after Vr.
- before flap retraction.
- in climb, cruise or descent.
- during approach and configurating.
- on finals.
- during the flare.
- after T/D.
Contributing factors;
Big birds/small birds?
How many?
Seen/not seen/heard/not heard?
Tell ATC?
Engine indications ok/degraded/recovered/power avail?
Change configuration or not?
Fire/severe damage/eng shut down - checklists v fly the ac?
Visual inspection possible from inside/outside ac?
Low speed handling check possible/appropriate?
Airfield facilities - rwy length/xwind/fire services/engineering/commercial etc?
Cabin crew aware?
and, or course if things are really bad, maybe to select suitable area for crash or ditching + handling techniques thereof!
I for one think that 'Sully' and his crew did a fantastic job - bravos all round!
flipster
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Bird sanctuaries - here is an extract from Game and Fish:
<<
NEW JERSEY
. . . populations of resident Canada geese have continued an upward trend, . . .
The Division of Fish and Wildlife (DFW) has done a good job at protecting the state's marshes and wetlands. Even with continued development, waterfowl habitat has remained fairly stable, especially in the central and southern portions of the state.
. . . New Jersey has both freshwater and saltwater marshes. With extensive bays, small rivers and streams along its 100-plus mile coastline, along with the tea-stained water of the Pine Barrens, it's easy to understand why New Jersey is a major stopover along the Atlantic Flyway for ducks and geese.
When you combine these numerous wetlands with the plethora of small parks, golf courses, corporate centers and other areas off-limits to hunters, it's easy to see why the resident Canada goose population is estimated at over 100,000 birds.
. . . Garden State water- fowlers have between 350,000 and 450,000 big birds to shoot at every year.>>
and intellectual approach to the problem from another site:
<<with all the talk about illegal immigration from mexico an building a security fence, we should be doing the same, made of cyclone fencing and topped with razor wire to a height of 5 miles to keep those friggin' geese out. let 'em go through the regular check points all along the border, walking in gaggles, where they can be tagged, two poind lead weights chained to each ankle and an electronic beeper harnessed around their neck. oh, yeh, considering how much they **** all over our pristing green lawns, parks and wetlands, we should crazy-glue their assholes shut>>
More seriously here is a map of the Atlantic flyway Migration Flyways
It is perhaps likely that the geese were overwintering in the Bronx area from October to May.
October 1May 21Canada GooseBranta canadensis
<<
NEW JERSEY
. . . populations of resident Canada geese have continued an upward trend, . . .
The Division of Fish and Wildlife (DFW) has done a good job at protecting the state's marshes and wetlands. Even with continued development, waterfowl habitat has remained fairly stable, especially in the central and southern portions of the state.
. . . New Jersey has both freshwater and saltwater marshes. With extensive bays, small rivers and streams along its 100-plus mile coastline, along with the tea-stained water of the Pine Barrens, it's easy to understand why New Jersey is a major stopover along the Atlantic Flyway for ducks and geese.
When you combine these numerous wetlands with the plethora of small parks, golf courses, corporate centers and other areas off-limits to hunters, it's easy to see why the resident Canada goose population is estimated at over 100,000 birds.
. . . Garden State water- fowlers have between 350,000 and 450,000 big birds to shoot at every year.>>
and intellectual approach to the problem from another site:
<<with all the talk about illegal immigration from mexico an building a security fence, we should be doing the same, made of cyclone fencing and topped with razor wire to a height of 5 miles to keep those friggin' geese out. let 'em go through the regular check points all along the border, walking in gaggles, where they can be tagged, two poind lead weights chained to each ankle and an electronic beeper harnessed around their neck. oh, yeh, considering how much they **** all over our pristing green lawns, parks and wetlands, we should crazy-glue their assholes shut>>
More seriously here is a map of the Atlantic flyway Migration Flyways
It is perhaps likely that the geese were overwintering in the Bronx area from October to May.
October 1May 21Canada GooseBranta canadensis
Last edited by Wader2; 20th Jan 2009 at 11:10.
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As a simple pax it is with trepidation that I ask this question,
Is it not possable to have some sort of mesh screen in front of the engine intakes to stop large objects from being sucked in, large enough mesh to allow airflow and small birds but small enough to stop large objects like geese, swans and maintenance engineers ect.?
Should I get my coat?
MP
Is it not possable to have some sort of mesh screen in front of the engine intakes to stop large objects from being sucked in, large enough mesh to allow airflow and small birds but small enough to stop large objects like geese, swans and maintenance engineers ect.?
Should I get my coat?
MP
Fly The Bloody Aeroplane
Huck, thanks for the prompt. Damn I missed it. You sent me flying to the filing cabinet. You're quite correct about MMPL it's all there, but you do have to search:
Appendix G sub section D para 9.17. (G ii)
Hang on ! Damn. No wrong again, that's the check list for when the crap and fan collide and all you've got left is experience. See Capt Sullenber for that
Appendix G sub section D para 9.17. (G ii)
Hang on ! Damn. No wrong again, that's the check list for when the crap and fan collide and all you've got left is experience. See Capt Sullenber for that
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[QUOTE]So, our turkey expert told us, they will takeoff upwind.
Flock of birds RH of runway, and wind coming from your LH, they will cross your path.
/QUOTE]
Had never considered that BelArgUSA. Useful nugget of information.
Flock of birds RH of runway, and wind coming from your LH, they will cross your path.
/QUOTE]
Had never considered that BelArgUSA. Useful nugget of information.
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Behind our house is a small lake. There was a strong northerly and two geese made a landing on the ling, into wind, runway. They had (or rather the gander had) neglected to conduct a proper airfield recce before landing.
Immediately beyond the lift off point was an earth bank and then a strand of trees rising to 60 feet. Needless to say they did not make it and came through the trees at about 40 feet with him honking left abit, right abit, and her no half giving him a wigging.
Geese are good endurance fliers at high speeds and heights up to 18k, manoeuvrable and capable of low speed flight they are not.
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Mr Pax: Quote: "As a simple pax it is with trepidation that I ask this question,
Is it not possable to have some sort of mesh screen in front of the engine intakes to stop large objects from being sucked in, large enough mesh to allow airflow and small birds but small enough to stop large objects like geese, swans and maintenance engineers ect.?"
Birds can do a lot of damage. Would a wiremesh have stopped this ?
Get your coat Mr Pax
Is it not possable to have some sort of mesh screen in front of the engine intakes to stop large objects from being sucked in, large enough mesh to allow airflow and small birds but small enough to stop large objects like geese, swans and maintenance engineers ect.?"
Birds can do a lot of damage. Would a wiremesh have stopped this ?
Get your coat Mr Pax
