Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
amazing!, fast currents, and catastrophic events,
this is an amazing story and hello from london,
the crew getting the a/c down and the rescue effort was simply spectacular...
having recently sailed in a 90' schooner down the hudson from 59th st pier with the same outgoing tide i can assure you its very fast,
our skipper on the boat said its maybe a current of 3-4 kts at times depending on the moon etc
we were there for full moon and the current was very fast.
the us air a320 touched down near the uss intrepid and within a few minutes had drifted down to 23rd st,
the ntsb spokeswoman today seems to indicate (to me) that info from the capt seems that ''all'' climb power was inhibited so the capt made a landing where he deemed the safest with his speed and height left...the river, HE KNEW HE WASNT GONNA MAKE A RUNWAY...end of,
i am sure this is NOT a case of 'wrong engines were shutdown' and 'there still was a good engine' and 'why didnt he get it to an airport'.....
as most of you are atpl pilots in large jets then some of the input here is simply silly and just people trying to get reactions...
save that for the vile nasty comments you see on youtube please...
this is a pro aviation site so lets keep it like that or respect that if you are not in the profession.
if you look at the timeline v atlitude/speeds and how these events were bleeding off then im sure you will see the river was his only and best option...and it worked, vessels were close by and rescue was immediate.
to end here i must say now that we have had maybe a half dozen or so recent catastrophic events in the immediate or final phase of flight where the crew, and here i am gonna say very importantly the pax (SLF) were NOT expecting this, and the a/c was badly damaged/destroyed and the evacuations' were immediate and unexpected...
such as..
AIR FRANCE A340 landing over run YYZ
BA 777 LHR crash land, double engine lost power on final
RYANAIR 737 crash land CIA (double engine bird stike on final)
IBERIA A340 UIO landing over run
CONTINENTAL 737 DEN rejected t/o
US AIR NYC A320 ditching after t/o double engine ? bird strike ?
there were NO fatalities in these accidents,
but i could go on and mention others not quite so fortunate,
GARUDA,ONE 2 GO, TACA and more,
lets hope the pax really now do start taking note of the critical phase of flight, and assume maybe it may just happen to me one day and be as prepared as you can.
the crew getting the a/c down and the rescue effort was simply spectacular...
having recently sailed in a 90' schooner down the hudson from 59th st pier with the same outgoing tide i can assure you its very fast,
our skipper on the boat said its maybe a current of 3-4 kts at times depending on the moon etc
we were there for full moon and the current was very fast.
the us air a320 touched down near the uss intrepid and within a few minutes had drifted down to 23rd st,
the ntsb spokeswoman today seems to indicate (to me) that info from the capt seems that ''all'' climb power was inhibited so the capt made a landing where he deemed the safest with his speed and height left...the river, HE KNEW HE WASNT GONNA MAKE A RUNWAY...end of,
i am sure this is NOT a case of 'wrong engines were shutdown' and 'there still was a good engine' and 'why didnt he get it to an airport'.....
as most of you are atpl pilots in large jets then some of the input here is simply silly and just people trying to get reactions...
save that for the vile nasty comments you see on youtube please...
this is a pro aviation site so lets keep it like that or respect that if you are not in the profession.
if you look at the timeline v atlitude/speeds and how these events were bleeding off then im sure you will see the river was his only and best option...and it worked, vessels were close by and rescue was immediate.
to end here i must say now that we have had maybe a half dozen or so recent catastrophic events in the immediate or final phase of flight where the crew, and here i am gonna say very importantly the pax (SLF) were NOT expecting this, and the a/c was badly damaged/destroyed and the evacuations' were immediate and unexpected...
such as..
AIR FRANCE A340 landing over run YYZ
BA 777 LHR crash land, double engine lost power on final
RYANAIR 737 crash land CIA (double engine bird stike on final)
IBERIA A340 UIO landing over run
CONTINENTAL 737 DEN rejected t/o
US AIR NYC A320 ditching after t/o double engine ? bird strike ?
there were NO fatalities in these accidents,
but i could go on and mention others not quite so fortunate,
GARUDA,ONE 2 GO, TACA and more,
lets hope the pax really now do start taking note of the critical phase of flight, and assume maybe it may just happen to me one day and be as prepared as you can.
Last edited by rog747; 18th Jan 2009 at 11:59. Reason: my error
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Overwing and rear exits -
to Beausoleil -
xxx
The airplanes I flew in my career - 707-727-747-DC8 - were all supposedly to float somewhat nose-up.
Your opinion about rear exits being unusable after ditching is correct.
Be aware that a few types are devoid of any "overwing exits".
And... 25 years ago, a certain "world favorite airline" suppressed their L3/R3 doors on 747s.
This to put an extra 12 or so seats... Superior thinking, with safety concerns.
xxx
One rule applicable to any airplanes -
You only open a door after assessment of outside conditions (water/fire).
That is the reason why doors have a window...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
The airplanes I flew in my career - 707-727-747-DC8 - were all supposedly to float somewhat nose-up.
Your opinion about rear exits being unusable after ditching is correct.
Be aware that a few types are devoid of any "overwing exits".
And... 25 years ago, a certain "world favorite airline" suppressed their L3/R3 doors on 747s.
This to put an extra 12 or so seats... Superior thinking, with safety concerns.
xxx
One rule applicable to any airplanes -
You only open a door after assessment of outside conditions (water/fire).
That is the reason why doors have a window...
xxx
Happy contrails
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reventor, thanks for clarifying your meaning of 'irrelevant'- sure they probably could have done it on their own, but my point was, without a trained, assertive individual who knows what could have happened... in an intact, full cabin such as this it seems that the cc kept things from turning into a panic, had the doors open within seconds (try that when you've never operated a door before, no matter how much you read the cards)
My comment re: the rear doors, to paraphrase the article, basically the pax opened the rear door (however that happened, I don't know- only one FA at the back so could have been just too fast/strong for the FA) water started coming in, FA managed to convince pax to exit via fwd and closed door...
I suppose we shall see once it all comes out. I'd just hazard a guess- wouldn't you feel more comfortable knowing you have a trained, experienced crew rather than Joe Bloggs who flies twice a month on your plane??? It's sort of like saying, oh, maybe we had a commercial lear jet pilot on board- sure they know a thing or two about the aircraft but it doesn't substitute for hands on experience!
Beausoleil- yes, it is type dependent. Even a 737 will differ depending on type
B737-400- main doors (fwd and aft) only
B737-800- overwing exits and fwd doors only
The card is the clue
My comment re: the rear doors, to paraphrase the article, basically the pax opened the rear door (however that happened, I don't know- only one FA at the back so could have been just too fast/strong for the FA) water started coming in, FA managed to convince pax to exit via fwd and closed door...
I suppose we shall see once it all comes out. I'd just hazard a guess- wouldn't you feel more comfortable knowing you have a trained, experienced crew rather than Joe Bloggs who flies twice a month on your plane??? It's sort of like saying, oh, maybe we had a commercial lear jet pilot on board- sure they know a thing or two about the aircraft but it doesn't substitute for hands on experience!
Beausoleil- yes, it is type dependent. Even a 737 will differ depending on type
B737-400- main doors (fwd and aft) only
B737-800- overwing exits and fwd doors only
The card is the clue
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BBC News: "Capt Sullenberger looked up and in an instant his windscreen was filled with big, dark-brown birds.
"His instinct was to duck," said NTSB"
That tickled me a bit. Glad he didn't get in a flap, anyway.
"His instinct was to duck," said NTSB"
That tickled me a bit. Glad he didn't get in a flap, anyway.
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Gider experience?
Personally i think it is quite obvious that sully's gliding experience played a significant part in the whole process. Not necessarily in terms of handling or ability to judge height/distance but as a glider pilot you are always looking for an escape route and a lace to put down in the event of a loss in lift. Given sully's large experience i think this must have come second nature to him. best man for the job!!
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ATC comm:
15:24:54 LaGuardia (LGA) tower controller clears Flight 1549 for takeoff from Runway 4, with instructions to turn left after departure and maintain a 360 deg heading. About a minute later, controller instructs crew to contact New York Departure Control.
15:25:51 Pilot contacts departure controller and advises aircraft was passing through at 700 ft. and climbing to 5,000 ft. Controller instructs aircraft to climb to 15,000 ft. Crew acknowledges. Controller instructs flight to turn left to heading 270 deg.
15:27:01 “Ahhh, this is 1549. Hit birds. We lost thrust in both engines. We’re turning back towards LaGuardia.” ATC acknowledges problem and instructs flight to turn left on a 220-deg heading. Crew acknowledges
Radar data from Newark and JFK sites indicate that at 15:27:01-- about 90 sec. after Flight 1549’s departure from LGA--the Airbus A320-200 intersected a “string of primary targets” between 2,900 ft. and 3,000 ft. These targets [interpretation: birds] were not depicted on the departure controller’s radar screen.
15:27:49 Departure controller advises LGA tower to halt further departures because an “emergency airplane is returning to the airport.” When queried which flight was returning, departure control advises, “It’s 1549. Birdstrike. He lost all engines, he lost the thrust in the engines. He is returning immediately.”
15:28.05 Controller asks if pilot wants to land at LaGuardia’s Runway 13. Pilot responds: “We are unable. We may end up in the Hudson.” According to the NTSB, discussion followed as to whether the flight could land at Teterboro (N.J.) airport, located about six mi. off the right side of the aircraft. Pilot responds, “We can’t do it.” When asked on which runway he would like to land, pilot responds: “We’re gonna be in the Hudson”—the last communiqué from the aircraft
15:30:30 Radar data shows aircraft touchdown in the Hudson River. Radar and tower personnel notify U.S. Coast Guard, New York City Police Dept. and other search and rescue groups. Coast Guard replies, “We launched the fleet.”The safety board’s Air Traffic Control Group had completed interviews with seven controllers and air traffic management personnel from New York Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) and LaGuardia (LGA) tower.
15:24:54 LaGuardia (LGA) tower controller clears Flight 1549 for takeoff from Runway 4, with instructions to turn left after departure and maintain a 360 deg heading. About a minute later, controller instructs crew to contact New York Departure Control.
15:25:51 Pilot contacts departure controller and advises aircraft was passing through at 700 ft. and climbing to 5,000 ft. Controller instructs aircraft to climb to 15,000 ft. Crew acknowledges. Controller instructs flight to turn left to heading 270 deg.
15:27:01 “Ahhh, this is 1549. Hit birds. We lost thrust in both engines. We’re turning back towards LaGuardia.” ATC acknowledges problem and instructs flight to turn left on a 220-deg heading. Crew acknowledges
Radar data from Newark and JFK sites indicate that at 15:27:01-- about 90 sec. after Flight 1549’s departure from LGA--the Airbus A320-200 intersected a “string of primary targets” between 2,900 ft. and 3,000 ft. These targets [interpretation: birds] were not depicted on the departure controller’s radar screen.
15:27:49 Departure controller advises LGA tower to halt further departures because an “emergency airplane is returning to the airport.” When queried which flight was returning, departure control advises, “It’s 1549. Birdstrike. He lost all engines, he lost the thrust in the engines. He is returning immediately.”
15:28.05 Controller asks if pilot wants to land at LaGuardia’s Runway 13. Pilot responds: “We are unable. We may end up in the Hudson.” According to the NTSB, discussion followed as to whether the flight could land at Teterboro (N.J.) airport, located about six mi. off the right side of the aircraft. Pilot responds, “We can’t do it.” When asked on which runway he would like to land, pilot responds: “We’re gonna be in the Hudson”—the last communiqué from the aircraft
15:30:30 Radar data shows aircraft touchdown in the Hudson River. Radar and tower personnel notify U.S. Coast Guard, New York City Police Dept. and other search and rescue groups. Coast Guard replies, “We launched the fleet.”The safety board’s Air Traffic Control Group had completed interviews with seven controllers and air traffic management personnel from New York Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) and LaGuardia (LGA) tower.
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There's always the possibility of one going through the screen - therefore it was a good instinct to duck
Save your sight - you're going to need it in the next few minutes.
Save your sight - you're going to need it in the next few minutes.
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This prescient 2002 report is worth a read:
Large Flocking Birds - An International Conflict Between Conservation and Air Safety
Large Flocking Birds - An International Conflict Between Conservation and Air Safety
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Communication?
When the NYFD and NYPD were called out, they were not told type of aircraft, and were expecting a light plane or helo. This came out in tv interviews with them.
GB
GB
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NY Times
The tip of the right wing had been shorn off, and pieces were missing from it. Strands of steel and wires hung loose from the back portion of the fuselage, and the passenger hatch near the nose of the plane was gaping open, hanging off its hinges.
A gash extended from the base of the plane toward the windows. And in places, the skin of the aircraft was simply gone.
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Before we all become self-appointed NTSB experts looking at the state of the aircraft as recovered, one ought to remember that post ditching this aircraft has been bumped into / pushed / towed by numerous boats. Then been tied up to a pier with the right wing under the pier (stuck in the mud?), for 48hrs+, with a 3-4K reversing tide, then dragged out, and picked up by a crane 
I think given all that, it looks in remarkable good nick - never mind the ditching
NB The Fwd cargo door seems to have been opened in a normal type manner i.e. fairly undamaged?
NoD
I think given all that, it looks in remarkable good nick - never mind the ditching
NB The Fwd cargo door seems to have been opened in a normal type manner i.e. fairly undamaged?
NoD
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Graybeard, I had posted more of the rough transcript of FDNY communications earlier in this thread, but these two entries suggest that they knew it was a commercial airliner.
Posting on the Web of the FDNY communications radio traffic began at 1537 hours, so it was quite contemporaneous.
Manhattan- Aircraft Down In River 01-15-09 - EMTBravo.net
1529hrs- Bronx receiving numerous calls for an explosion from a commercial aircraft over the borough.
1530hrs- Bronx transmitted (2) boxes for an explosion from an aircraft. Bronx CO advising B/C's that Queens CO is in constant contact with Airport Tower and are monitoring the aircraft which is attempting to conduct an emergency landing.
1530hrs- Bronx transmitted (2) boxes for an explosion from an aircraft. Bronx CO advising B/C's that Queens CO is in constant contact with Airport Tower and are monitoring the aircraft which is attempting to conduct an emergency landing.
Manhattan- Aircraft Down In River 01-15-09 - EMTBravo.net
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Airbrake wrote -
I understand the PF saw the geese ahead in plenty of time - but assumed he would outclimb them.
He had 35 hrs on type.
2. On 99% of occassions when you see birds its way to late to do anything about it except duck and hope.
He had 35 hrs on type.
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One more observation to incite the masses...
Everyone is falling over themselves to congratulate the skipper on what he did. And of course he did do a good job...
But I reckon most of us (well, those of us who actually fly commercial aircraft - so I suppose a minority in this discussion!) would achieve a roughly similar result. Once the initial shock is over, the aircraft stabilised and the decisions made, the final part of the flight is a relatively simple evolution. I'd be pretty surprised if any more than say, 10% of USAir pilots would screw it up if faced with a similar situation - clear day, calm water, and so on. As another commentator said, he did well but he was also very lucky.
I'm sure that Capt Sullenburger will be the first to say that he just did what he was trained to do.
I'm getting pretty tired of the instant exaltation to hero status that pilots end up having to endure for simply doing their jobs properly. Most of those who have been there had trouble working out what all the fuss is about.
I'm actually more impressed that the F/O gave up his shirt, but there you go.
Anyway I suppose it is just human nature, and as I'm sure that most of the spotters/SLF here won't get what I'm on about, I'll shut up and go and get my flak jacket!
Everyone is falling over themselves to congratulate the skipper on what he did. And of course he did do a good job...
But I reckon most of us (well, those of us who actually fly commercial aircraft - so I suppose a minority in this discussion!) would achieve a roughly similar result. Once the initial shock is over, the aircraft stabilised and the decisions made, the final part of the flight is a relatively simple evolution. I'd be pretty surprised if any more than say, 10% of USAir pilots would screw it up if faced with a similar situation - clear day, calm water, and so on. As another commentator said, he did well but he was also very lucky.
I'm sure that Capt Sullenburger will be the first to say that he just did what he was trained to do.
I'm getting pretty tired of the instant exaltation to hero status that pilots end up having to endure for simply doing their jobs properly. Most of those who have been there had trouble working out what all the fuss is about.
I'm actually more impressed that the F/O gave up his shirt, but there you go.
Anyway I suppose it is just human nature, and as I'm sure that most of the spotters/SLF here won't get what I'm on about, I'll shut up and go and get my flak jacket!
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Getting the Message
Saturn V: "Graybeard, I had posted more of the rough transcript of FDNY communications earlier in this thread, but these two entries suggest that they knew it was a commercial airliner."
The two NYPD SCUBA guys on CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight" Friday night said they were expecting a light aircraft. Transcripts should reveal where the comm breakdown occurred. For anyone really interested, the interview transcript should be available by now on LouDobbs.com.
GB
The two NYPD SCUBA guys on CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight" Friday night said they were expecting a light aircraft. Transcripts should reveal where the comm breakdown occurred. For anyone really interested, the interview transcript should be available by now on LouDobbs.com.
GB
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remoak, I agree completly earlier today I was bitching about the news only mentioning the skipper, completly leaving the FO out, I'm sure he played his part, aswell as, as you mentioned the other act of handing his shirt to a passenger...
He did do a great job, but he also did what he was trained to do
He did do a great job, but he also did what he was trained to do
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Certainly a great deal of luck involved in this incident regarding position, altitude, time of day, weather, surface conditions etc. But there go a lot of us - who are still alive because of just the right amount of luck at awkward times.
Nonetheless despite this, all the other factors that we are judged on as professionals are also here with full marks awarded. Be it for judgement, handling, management, CRM, systems knowledge etc. There is so much that could have gone wrong despite the circumstances of the day.
This was an exceptional performance by a professional crew who managed a difficult situation to an excellent outcome. They have my admiration.
Nonetheless despite this, all the other factors that we are judged on as professionals are also here with full marks awarded. Be it for judgement, handling, management, CRM, systems knowledge etc. There is so much that could have gone wrong despite the circumstances of the day.
This was an exceptional performance by a professional crew who managed a difficult situation to an excellent outcome. They have my admiration.
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The NTSB said radar data confirmed that the aircraft intersected a group of "primary targets," almost certainly birds, as the jet climbed over the Bronx. Those targets had not been on the radar screen of the air traffic controller who approved the departure, Higgins said.
Sullenberger takes controls
The current BAM details the probability of BASH risks on a given day using historic trends. However, it cannot show when a large warbler flock actually passes over an airfield. NEXRAD (NEXt generation RADar) provides that capability (see the article on radar ornithology in this issue). In addition to a conservation tool, the DoD PIF BASH Working Group promotes NEXRAD as a safety tool. The BAM is being refined to ultimately provide real-time updates using Doppler radar technology. Naval Air Station (NAS) Whidbey Island, Washington, implemented an aggressive BASH prevention program in the winter of 1996 based on these three strategies. Between 1989 and 1995, NAS Whidbey Island recorded three to four damaging bird strikes each year within the local airfield environment. Since implementing the BASH prevention program, the station has suffered only two damaging bird strikes at the local airfield. Through ongoing communication and awareness programs, the number of non-damaging bird strikes reported actually increased. Exact airfield strike locations and species identification in these reports facilitate significant airfield modifications that reduce the attractiveness of the airfield to "problem" avian species.
US Bird Avoidance Model (USBAM) / Newark - NYC Regional NEXRAD Bird Detection Area
Harriman State Park NY -- Weather 1/15
Sullenberger takes controls
The current BAM details the probability of BASH risks on a given day using historic trends. However, it cannot show when a large warbler flock actually passes over an airfield. NEXRAD (NEXt generation RADar) provides that capability (see the article on radar ornithology in this issue). In addition to a conservation tool, the DoD PIF BASH Working Group promotes NEXRAD as a safety tool. The BAM is being refined to ultimately provide real-time updates using Doppler radar technology. Naval Air Station (NAS) Whidbey Island, Washington, implemented an aggressive BASH prevention program in the winter of 1996 based on these three strategies. Between 1989 and 1995, NAS Whidbey Island recorded three to four damaging bird strikes each year within the local airfield environment. Since implementing the BASH prevention program, the station has suffered only two damaging bird strikes at the local airfield. Through ongoing communication and awareness programs, the number of non-damaging bird strikes reported actually increased. Exact airfield strike locations and species identification in these reports facilitate significant airfield modifications that reduce the attractiveness of the airfield to "problem" avian species.
US Bird Avoidance Model (USBAM) / Newark - NYC Regional NEXRAD Bird Detection Area
Harriman State Park NY -- Weather 1/15
Last edited by E.Z. Flyer; 19th Jan 2009 at 17:15. Reason: Reference data
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A musing on the Starboard engine non-detatchment..
Is it possible that the starboard engine was still producing some (more than the port engine at least) amount of power on ditching? This would allow the water, on impact, a slightly less restrained passage through the powerplant and hence it could have experienced insufficient force to shear it off. Could this possibly also explain the aircrafts yaw to port once waterborne.
One things for sure, every piece of torn metal under the wings, the sheared port engine and no doubt buckled underbelly all are evidence of the absorbtion of impact energy which was sufficient to protect the integrity of the fuselage and its precious cargo.
Engineering design, great skill and fortune all played a part in this event. To what degree of each we will find out in the fullness of time.
One things for sure, every piece of torn metal under the wings, the sheared port engine and no doubt buckled underbelly all are evidence of the absorbtion of impact energy which was sufficient to protect the integrity of the fuselage and its precious cargo.
Engineering design, great skill and fortune all played a part in this event. To what degree of each we will find out in the fullness of time.