Crash at ZRH
Join Date: Feb 2000
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- ATR42, GPWS gives you VERY little time to act in some cases. Are you always prepared to instantly give max power and pull up to stick shaker, even when you are on approach, and "know" everything is fine.
- Does the BBC report this to be a "Jumbolino" so that as few as possible actually understand which a/c type it is?
- Does the BBC report this to be a "Jumbolino" so that as few as possible actually understand which a/c type it is?
Join Date: May 2001
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MAX you must always react to an unexpected GPWS hard warning at night ,in IMC,or in marginal WX; no questions or discussion.Thatīs the procedure in my Airline,and we are trained to do so,discuss it later over a beer.Perhaps the GPWS was not functioning,itīs not always a minimum requirement, who knows? This RW 28 approach, in my opinion, is no more difficult than many other non-prec approaches in the world; but itīs true to say that an ILS is always better,& the tail does increasingly wag the dog.
Condolences to All Family members.
Condolences to All Family members.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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The blame is given to the Zuerich airport, which has failed to install a proper instrument approach with glide path on rwy 28.
Maybe the reason is local noice restrictions. So they leave it to the airlines again.
I feel very sorry to everybody involved, especially the fine people of crossair.
Maybe the reason is local noice restrictions. So they leave it to the airlines again.
I feel very sorry to everybody involved, especially the fine people of crossair.
ex-Tanker
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Three more points:
1) Cockpit not in such "good shape" as originally reported.
2) Freezing rain in the crash area at the time (2 miles west of ZRH).
3) The VOR approach to RW 28 has been in use for several years - there is also a STOL version for suitable aircraft which is a pig to fly if there is not a strong west wind blowing.
[On another note, it would be nice to meet some of you if you can make it on 30th in the Hecht, Winkel (see further below).]
1) Cockpit not in such "good shape" as originally reported.
2) Freezing rain in the crash area at the time (2 miles west of ZRH).
3) The VOR approach to RW 28 has been in use for several years - there is also a STOL version for suitable aircraft which is a pig to fly if there is not a strong west wind blowing.
[On another note, it would be nice to meet some of you if you can make it on 30th in the Hecht, Winkel (see further below).]
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At “my“ airline it is always mandatory to execute an escape maneuver if you receive an unexpected GPWS warning, irrespectively of flight conditions. Unfortunately will current GPWS systems (except the new EGPWS on the 737-800/900) not prevent CFIT in landing configuration.
Like Cisco, I also don’t think that the VOR approach for RWY 28 in ZRH is especially difficult. However, ATC usually vectors you around for a long time at low level, which could easily ice up an aircraft pretty bad in yesterdays weather condition. The long initial sequence of the standard approach (which you usually have to fly) doesn’t help either.
My deepest sympathy to everybody involved.
Like Cisco, I also don’t think that the VOR approach for RWY 28 in ZRH is especially difficult. However, ATC usually vectors you around for a long time at low level, which could easily ice up an aircraft pretty bad in yesterdays weather condition. The long initial sequence of the standard approach (which you usually have to fly) doesn’t help either.
My deepest sympathy to everybody involved.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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In such a weather condition all the noise/political agreement must be overcome.
Another time we have to wait till an aircraft is crashed for some action from people flying the desk (Guv, take note).
Why we attend classes of CRM and study lots of terms (situational awareness, ..,)?
To escape from Pilot Induced Errors?
I flew all the approaches in ZRH (all types and RWYs) with different a/cs, also with RJs, but as a prevention I think that the 22.00 overflights rules should be disregarded in such weather conditions.
My condolences and symphaty to all Swiss pilots and families.
Cheers.
Another time we have to wait till an aircraft is crashed for some action from people flying the desk (Guv, take note).
Why we attend classes of CRM and study lots of terms (situational awareness, ..,)?
To escape from Pilot Induced Errors?
I flew all the approaches in ZRH (all types and RWYs) with different a/cs, also with RJs, but as a prevention I think that the 22.00 overflights rules should be disregarded in such weather conditions.
My condolences and symphaty to all Swiss pilots and families.
Cheers.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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According to Swiss TV info following nationalities were on board:
Canada
Israel
The Netherlands
Austria
Germany
Switzerland
What another terrible day for aviation. My deepest condolences to all families involved.
Canada
Israel
The Netherlands
Austria
Germany
Switzerland
What another terrible day for aviation. My deepest condolences to all families involved.
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Good points ,Few C & Meto, about possible icing,given the weather almost certain,& reduced function of GPWS in ldg. configuration I was thinking of E-GPWS so you are correct on that score.Some models do still generate a warning with gear down usually "Terrain" without the pull up alert,depends on closure rate& speed.
Anyway letīs hope we do not have to wait an eternity for the official report,then we all can learn something.
Anyway letīs hope we do not have to wait an eternity for the official report,then we all can learn something.
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atr42,
If the aircraft is configured for landing with landing flap selected, the only possible GPWS warnings are the Mode 5 alerts ie deviation below the glideslope. If there is no GS then, unless the aircraft is fitted with EGPWS, I dont see what can prevent flying into the ground short of the runway.
EGPWS as fitted to the RJ100 provides RAD ALT auto calls of 500, 100, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 (feet)
(edited to add last paragraph)
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: GearUp CheerUp ]
If the aircraft is configured for landing with landing flap selected, the only possible GPWS warnings are the Mode 5 alerts ie deviation below the glideslope. If there is no GS then, unless the aircraft is fitted with EGPWS, I dont see what can prevent flying into the ground short of the runway.
EGPWS as fitted to the RJ100 provides RAD ALT auto calls of 500, 100, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 (feet)
(edited to add last paragraph)
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: GearUp CheerUp ]
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Ok guys, not necessarily a difficult approach, but it depends how you fly it.
Most big aircraft fly a constant descent NPA, to a minimum and then if nothing seen -G/A.
However, smaller A/C still fly down to MDA and look out the window until reaching the Missed app point.
A more difficult and high risk approach indeed!
Most big aircraft fly a constant descent NPA, to a minimum and then if nothing seen -G/A.
However, smaller A/C still fly down to MDA and look out the window until reaching the Missed app point.
A more difficult and high risk approach indeed!
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Shouldnīt be like that on this Approach Gulfer,there are clearly defined dme distances & alt restrictions at the said distaces (and or radials)in fact due to terrain the last 5 miles calls for an appr. angle of 3.7 deg.and an alt.of approx 2000ft. agl at that point,there is also a speed restriction on final turn; but Few Cīs point about the STOL procedure might make it different in this case ,I donīt know.
cheers Cisco.
cheers Cisco.
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First of all condolences to all involved. :-(
I had a look at the approach charts for RWY 28 this morning.
One thing which seems as a very big disclaimer for the authorities is a note in fine print on the plan view of both approach plates to RWY 28, which states that KLO VOR may be unreliable below 12,000ft.
It doesn't state in which sectors, so how can an approach be designed on such a navaid?
Moreover, the STOL approach doesn't look very friendly. For an approach speed typical for the RJ I would guess it would need a rate of descent in the region of 1,700 fpm on the final track.
Not something I would like to do, i.e. diving towards terrain at that speed in IMC conditions at that time of the night.
As echoed by many fellow aviators, I think we must take a stand and say "No!" whenever these criminal, noise abatement death traps are issued.
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: 320DRIVER ]
I had a look at the approach charts for RWY 28 this morning.
One thing which seems as a very big disclaimer for the authorities is a note in fine print on the plan view of both approach plates to RWY 28, which states that KLO VOR may be unreliable below 12,000ft.
It doesn't state in which sectors, so how can an approach be designed on such a navaid?
Moreover, the STOL approach doesn't look very friendly. For an approach speed typical for the RJ I would guess it would need a rate of descent in the region of 1,700 fpm on the final track.
Not something I would like to do, i.e. diving towards terrain at that speed in IMC conditions at that time of the night.
As echoed by many fellow aviators, I think we must take a stand and say "No!" whenever these criminal, noise abatement death traps are issued.
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: 320DRIVER ]
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My deepest sympathy to those who lost someone dear in this yet again, unnecessary tragedy.
I have flown the Avro RJ for Crossair on the same approach in similar weather. Not to difficult but would have been much nicer doing an ILS on Rwy 14/16
This is as every one mentioned the classic tail wagging the dog scenario. You sometimes cannot help to wonder how many lives need to be lost before the Swiss bureaucrats catch a wake-up.(Yes I am an Auslander) It is again very easy for all to point fingers at the crew, the airport, ATC etc. Maybe it is time to address the real problem!! The mentality, surrounding aviation in Switzerland!
Wow, this is not the place to belittle the aircraft others fly (steam driven).
The Avro RJ may not have tree prims, two secs and a side stick but it was good enough for at least 10 people (up to now and hopefully 13 more) to have survived.
I have flown the Avro RJ for Crossair on the same approach in similar weather. Not to difficult but would have been much nicer doing an ILS on Rwy 14/16
This is as every one mentioned the classic tail wagging the dog scenario. You sometimes cannot help to wonder how many lives need to be lost before the Swiss bureaucrats catch a wake-up.(Yes I am an Auslander) It is again very easy for all to point fingers at the crew, the airport, ATC etc. Maybe it is time to address the real problem!! The mentality, surrounding aviation in Switzerland!
Wow,
this is not the place to belittle the aircraft others fly (steam driven).The Avro RJ may not have tree prims, two secs and a side stick but it was good enough for at least 10 people (up to now and hopefully 13 more) to have survived.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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It is a known fact that CFIT risk is increased significantly with a non precision app . This particular proc . is more difficult than the average especially when the last time I did it ATC wanted 180 kts to 4 miles . That said it may not be attributed to CFIT but there is no doubt that a VOR/DME in these conditions at night into an a/f with high terrain would have increased the workload with a consequential reduction in situation awareness which in turn means that any other additional problem encountered eg wx tech fault atc or even ice could catch of any of us out at some stage .
This app whilst reducing noise does increase the risk .
This app whilst reducing noise does increase the risk .