DC9 Tug crew depart aircraft with covered up fuselage damage.
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A 'no blame' or 'just cause' culture will only work if the country/company in which it is being used understands what a 'no blame/just cause' culture' is. In the UK we regulalry find damage to aircraft that can only have been done on the ramp at the UK airport, and is not reported. In many cases, the perpetrators simply get away with it. Should the 'no blame' apply to such people?
We also get aircraft returning to the UK with un reported damage inflicted down route. Areas round pasenger and cargo doors are favourite.
Some one has done it. Some knows about it. Someone is responsible, but it still happens. 'Ramp Rash' is one the biggest causes of Technical Delays because once damaged, the repair can take a 'long time'.
To willingly know that an aircraft is damaged, to say nothing and the to allow the aircaft to depart in such a condition with no rectifiaction action is not acceptable behaviour for the majority of us.
However there is a minority who do not care or understand and the words 'no blame', just cause, human factors, aircraft safety, duty of care etc etc do not mean a thing to them.
Tempsford
We also get aircraft returning to the UK with un reported damage inflicted down route. Areas round pasenger and cargo doors are favourite.
Some one has done it. Some knows about it. Someone is responsible, but it still happens. 'Ramp Rash' is one the biggest causes of Technical Delays because once damaged, the repair can take a 'long time'.
To willingly know that an aircraft is damaged, to say nothing and the to allow the aircaft to depart in such a condition with no rectifiaction action is not acceptable behaviour for the majority of us.
However there is a minority who do not care or understand and the words 'no blame', just cause, human factors, aircraft safety, duty of care etc etc do not mean a thing to them.
Tempsford
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"At least with metal skins the damage, be it dents, scratches, scrapes is visible.
What's going to happen with plastic skins where that "little bump" shows nothing on the outer surface?"
the 787 will have imbedded strain gauges to alert of such anomalies
What's going to happen with plastic skins where that "little bump" shows nothing on the outer surface?"
the 787 will have imbedded strain gauges to alert of such anomalies
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Tempsford
Are you ghetting confused? Just culture is a recognised term. Just cause is to in a slightly different context. But you seem to be confusing them.
Are you not making an assumption that all the damage was knowingly done? You can't report what you don't know.
A 'no blame' or 'just cause' culture will only work if the country/company in which it is being used understands what a 'no blame/just cause' culture' is.
In the UK we regulalry find damage to aircraft that can only have been done on the ramp at the UK airport, and is not reported. In many cases, the perpetrators simply get away with it. Should the 'no blame' apply to such people? We also get aircraft returning to the UK with un reported damage inflicted down route. Areas round pasenger and cargo doors are favourite.
Some one has done it. Some knows about it.
Some one has done it. Some knows about it.
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Hi Shell,
Valid points,
I am saying that just cause may be recognised in some areas, but certainly not all and even with some countries/companies that have accepted just cause, it is ignored.
Also, I am not making the assumption that all damage is known about. That, of course is not the case.
Valid points,
I am saying that just cause may be recognised in some areas, but certainly not all and even with some countries/companies that have accepted just cause, it is ignored.
Also, I am not making the assumption that all damage is known about. That, of course is not the case.
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2 Points...
I am mere SLF when it comes to airliners, but do have experience on the ground team side of development fighters inc. a lot of carbon fibre.
I agree with the earlier comment that this is a treacherous material, if it takes a hard knock nothing shows externally, but it can be delaminated like plywood inside !
When our development aircraft suffered impacts, it caused mild panic, grounding and much ultrasonic etc examination - the same goes for lightning strikes.
No amount of built in strain guages or instrumentation would convince me it's suitable for airliners, especially any one I & family are in - accept the technological / cost limits, use skilled staff & metal !
I am not in the aviation business now, and certainly not in the pay of Mr. Airbus.
As for the ground handling crew piercing the fuselages of aircraft then keeping quiet, well I agree they should be prosecuted, BUT - while I don't know the position of the damage, on the face of it this doesn't say much for the aircrew walk-round ?
I agree with the earlier comment that this is a treacherous material, if it takes a hard knock nothing shows externally, but it can be delaminated like plywood inside !
When our development aircraft suffered impacts, it caused mild panic, grounding and much ultrasonic etc examination - the same goes for lightning strikes.
No amount of built in strain guages or instrumentation would convince me it's suitable for airliners, especially any one I & family are in - accept the technological / cost limits, use skilled staff & metal !
I am not in the aviation business now, and certainly not in the pay of Mr. Airbus.
As for the ground handling crew piercing the fuselages of aircraft then keeping quiet, well I agree they should be prosecuted, BUT - while I don't know the position of the damage, on the face of it this doesn't say much for the aircrew walk-round ?
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To add a little to Shell Management's comments, you really cannot talk about "no blame" and "just culture" as though they are almost the same. They are totally different; one is discredited and the other works.
But the comment that the organisation must understand it is very valid. Not only understand, but be fully committed to forcing it to work, from the CEO downwards.
And that's where the problems normally start, with CEOs who neither understand or care about the actual operation of the business they run, and believe that "knowing how to run a business" in the same way that a management consultant "knows about business" is adequate.
The worst case is history of that was that idiot in charge of Railtrack when the Paddington crash happened. He regarded is as "obscene", to use his word, that he should be held responsible.
But the comment that the organisation must understand it is very valid. Not only understand, but be fully committed to forcing it to work, from the CEO downwards.
And that's where the problems normally start, with CEOs who neither understand or care about the actual operation of the business they run, and believe that "knowing how to run a business" in the same way that a management consultant "knows about business" is adequate.
The worst case is history of that was that idiot in charge of Railtrack when the Paddington crash happened. He regarded is as "obscene", to use his word, that he should be held responsible.
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"No amount of built in strain guages or instrumentation would convince me it's suitable for airliners, especially any one I & family are in - accept the technological / cost limits, use skilled staff & metal !"
Same baseless fearmongering occured when metal started replacing wood structure.
You and the family had better get used to walking/driving
Same baseless fearmongering occured when metal started replacing wood structure.
You and the family had better get used to walking/driving
Re composites, I worked on the Harrier GR5 when new into RAF service, and it was quite a shock to discover just how easily it was damaged (just drop a spanner on the wing...). We were doing metal scab patches to composite wings as it was so difficult to be assured of the repair quality.
I hope things have improved since... If not, ferrydude is being somewhat overcritical of Doublezero
I hope things have improved since... If not, ferrydude is being somewhat overcritical of Doublezero
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Carbon Fibre
Possel,
Thankyou, we have obviously moved in the same circles & may have met !
To my detractor - sorry I am not being insulting but both PC & internal computers are playing up as regards names -
" welcome to the 21st century " is not all that likely to impress me, as my systems recorded the first European AIM 120 release, and various passenger safety systems elsewhere which should not be gone into detail here.
Materials which are convenient to the manufacturer ( and that is in some serious doubt if one really studies the figures ) are rarely convenient to the people on board.
In fact though I have flown Tiger Moths, it might take a gun to get me into a Fox Moth or a Rapide; still I reckon I could put those down with a fair chance, with the proviso of at least 2 wings on opposite sides - I would prefer an L72 Dural skin, especially leading edges, but if I had to fly something carbon fibre, I would rather like titanium ( & de-iceing ) leading edges.
Now that's 21st century.
If you had seen the snags with carbon fibre which I have photographed in close-up, you might be rather keener on Brunel than Smartarse.
Thankyou, we have obviously moved in the same circles & may have met !
To my detractor - sorry I am not being insulting but both PC & internal computers are playing up as regards names -
" welcome to the 21st century " is not all that likely to impress me, as my systems recorded the first European AIM 120 release, and various passenger safety systems elsewhere which should not be gone into detail here.
Materials which are convenient to the manufacturer ( and that is in some serious doubt if one really studies the figures ) are rarely convenient to the people on board.
In fact though I have flown Tiger Moths, it might take a gun to get me into a Fox Moth or a Rapide; still I reckon I could put those down with a fair chance, with the proviso of at least 2 wings on opposite sides - I would prefer an L72 Dural skin, especially leading edges, but if I had to fly something carbon fibre, I would rather like titanium ( & de-iceing ) leading edges.
Now that's 21st century.
If you had seen the snags with carbon fibre which I have photographed in close-up, you might be rather keener on Brunel than Smartarse.
Last edited by Double Zero; 23rd Dec 2008 at 19:18.
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FAA certifies 787 for fewer maintenance inspections
AIA dailyLead | 12/23/2008
The FAA Maintenance Review Board has agreed that high-tech composites used in the airframe of the 787 will allow the plane to be inspected less often than current models. The 787's first required external structural inspection will come after six years of normal operation, compared with three years for the 767. AviationWeek.com (12/22)
Unfortunately, DZ won't be asked for his input
AIA dailyLead | 12/23/2008
The FAA Maintenance Review Board has agreed that high-tech composites used in the airframe of the 787 will allow the plane to be inspected less often than current models. The 787's first required external structural inspection will come after six years of normal operation, compared with three years for the 767. AviationWeek.com (12/22)
Unfortunately, DZ won't be asked for his input
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Walk-round
That's just the thing I was asking; I don't know where the damage was, but find it hard to imagine being over a wing !
So indeed, what did happen to the walk-round ?
I am used to dealing with military groundcrew ( and in a way I was one ) who I have the utmost respect for, but for the chap who's signed for the aircraft carrying either explosives or hopefully if civilian lots of people, I take no insult at all at being regarded a possible idiot or worse and having my work checked.
I would regard it the Captain's duty to regard everyone else an idiot and double-check until proven otherwise - this is known practice on ships or even yachts, and I'm damn sure Test Pilots live to get their pension that way.
So indeed, what did happen to the walk-round ?
I am used to dealing with military groundcrew ( and in a way I was one ) who I have the utmost respect for, but for the chap who's signed for the aircraft carrying either explosives or hopefully if civilian lots of people, I take no insult at all at being regarded a possible idiot or worse and having my work checked.
I would regard it the Captain's duty to regard everyone else an idiot and double-check until proven otherwise - this is known practice on ships or even yachts, and I'm damn sure Test Pilots live to get their pension that way.
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Wonderfibre
OK Ferrydude,
If you're happy then great.
For fighters - so in a way much the same thing as an airliner doing X cycles - Lithium alloy was regarded the ultimate material for both immediate stress and for maintenance.
Guess what ? - It requires skilled people, remarkably similar to those laid off in their thousands over the last few years ( no, I'm not one of them ).
Safe travels, but maybe ' think brittle' !
Happy Christmas,
Double Zero & Muttley
If you're happy then great.
For fighters - so in a way much the same thing as an airliner doing X cycles - Lithium alloy was regarded the ultimate material for both immediate stress and for maintenance.
Guess what ? - It requires skilled people, remarkably similar to those laid off in their thousands over the last few years ( no, I'm not one of them ).
Safe travels, but maybe ' think brittle' !
Happy Christmas,
Double Zero & Muttley
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Not much guessing really, lessons have been learned and your concerns are unwarranted.
In-situ composite repair builds on basics: COMPOSITESWORLD.COM
In-situ composite repair builds on basics: COMPOSITESWORLD.COM
External Inspections
To those asking about whether a walkaround was conducted I have no idea in this particular case. However, the external inspection is not necessarily conducted immediately prior to departure, it can be done at any point on the turnaround, sometimes before any ground handling equipment turns up and certainly prior to it being removed. As a result there is a possibility that damage will be inflicted on the aircraft after the inspection has been completed, the pushback team are responsible for doing a quick visual check where I work but this might not be the case at all airlines.
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I cannot believe what I've just read.
So, airliner pilots responsible for hundreds of lives don't do a visual inspection BEFORE FLIGHT when all the handling types have cleared off ?
I was going to say mounted floodlamps rather than waving a big torch around ( or both ) would be a good idea.
Both my father - engine fitter from WWII on carriers to Harrier GR5 chargehand ( he stuck to what he was good at ) and even self - technical photographer - have on the odd occasion noticed missing panel fastnings etc.
Now it seems from the above that bus drivers take more care - and yes, no wonder Test Pilots usually get to live out their well earned pensions.
I won't be mentioning this to any media, but don't be surprised if this get's out, and though I never thought I'd say this, in everyone's interest it ought to .
So, airliner pilots responsible for hundreds of lives don't do a visual inspection BEFORE FLIGHT when all the handling types have cleared off ?
I was going to say mounted floodlamps rather than waving a big torch around ( or both ) would be a good idea.
Both my father - engine fitter from WWII on carriers to Harrier GR5 chargehand ( he stuck to what he was good at ) and even self - technical photographer - have on the odd occasion noticed missing panel fastnings etc.
Now it seems from the above that bus drivers take more care - and yes, no wonder Test Pilots usually get to live out their well earned pensions.
I won't be mentioning this to any media, but don't be surprised if this get's out, and though I never thought I'd say this, in everyone's interest it ought to .
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The final walk-round checks @ most UK airports are conducted by the Head set person. To get an on time 'off chocks' the tech crew must have been in the flight deck for some time. At many of the airports worldwide that I have worked on the ramp, this check even by the tech crew is condusted amongst many ground vehicles some still attached to the a/c.
Being emplyed some time ago as a safety auditor the operation and safety check levels of effectiveness are only as good as the inividual, the check is even more fraught when it is dark or the weather inclement. That said I cannot see that there is much more you can do. Someone mentioned the loss of this task as an engineering function, from my experience I doubt their imput or checks were particularly any better. It is a visual check plain and simple.
Being emplyed some time ago as a safety auditor the operation and safety check levels of effectiveness are only as good as the inividual, the check is even more fraught when it is dark or the weather inclement. That said I cannot see that there is much more you can do. Someone mentioned the loss of this task as an engineering function, from my experience I doubt their imput or checks were particularly any better. It is a visual check plain and simple.
Forewarned is Forearmed
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Returning to some earlier posts on the topic of reporting of incdents it a shocks me to find a culture of if you damage an aircraft you are down the Road end of story
I have investigated numerous incidents over the years where damage has been caused to aircraft, from an Aerodrome authority position which oversees the airside activities of third parties working airside.
Only one incident I can remember resulted in the dismissal of a member of staff, this was due to the failure to report damage caused to the aircraft to the relevant authorities.
In this current economic climate, almost everyone is concerned about keeping their jobs, supporting a family, possibly with a mortgage, incidents of unreported damage to aircraft in my opinion risk becoming more frequent, especially if people are threatened with dismissal if you damage an aircraft.
Perhaps this was a factor why this DC9 damage was not reported
The only exception to this may be if you were acting in a reckless manner when it occurred, in which case the person/s would have very little defence.
I have investigated numerous incidents over the years where damage has been caused to aircraft, from an Aerodrome authority position which oversees the airside activities of third parties working airside.
Only one incident I can remember resulted in the dismissal of a member of staff, this was due to the failure to report damage caused to the aircraft to the relevant authorities.
In this current economic climate, almost everyone is concerned about keeping their jobs, supporting a family, possibly with a mortgage, incidents of unreported damage to aircraft in my opinion risk becoming more frequent, especially if people are threatened with dismissal if you damage an aircraft.
Perhaps this was a factor why this DC9 damage was not reported
The only exception to this may be if you were acting in a reckless manner when it occurred, in which case the person/s would have very little defence.
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Last minute checks
I reckon my theories on doing a walk-round JUST BEFORE take off, and certainly after all ground handling people & vehicles are clear, is common sense and should be factored into the timetable...
A rather good example being the INSIDE wheel fractures posted here recently by an observant Captain on his walkround.
I don't know his name, but would happily fly with him in anything, anywhere - whereas I as a photographer have been led to ask ex- Lightning pilots,( not Dunsfold ) in a light aircraft throttling up for take off, " err, aren't we supposed to have 3 not 2 greens ?"!
A rather good example being the INSIDE wheel fractures posted here recently by an observant Captain on his walkround.
I don't know his name, but would happily fly with him in anything, anywhere - whereas I as a photographer have been led to ask ex- Lightning pilots,( not Dunsfold ) in a light aircraft throttling up for take off, " err, aren't we supposed to have 3 not 2 greens ?"!