Pay-to-fly wannabee damages Thomas Cook Airbus
Some years ago, my last company introduced a "touch and go" session in the simulator immediately after the skill test and before going base training in the real aeroplane. Each trainee was allowed two hours of sim time for this purpose.
At first I thought that this idea was a bit over the top but it proved quite invaluable in showing up weak areas and undoubtedly saved quite a bit of aeroplane time.
From the trainee's point of view, it gave them good exposure to the high work load involved during base training.
Do all companies/training organisations nowadays do dedicated "touch and go" training sessions in the simulator?
At first I thought that this idea was a bit over the top but it proved quite invaluable in showing up weak areas and undoubtedly saved quite a bit of aeroplane time.
From the trainee's point of view, it gave them good exposure to the high work load involved during base training.
Do all companies/training organisations nowadays do dedicated "touch and go" training sessions in the simulator?
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I read whilst having breakfast today that a turboprop TRTO is also offering (or about to offer) line training packages for potential customers who have completed their type rating. However what alarmed me in this particular case, is that the partner airline solely deals in last minute ACMI work and that could involve ops into interesting airfields like London City. Whilst it is usually Skippers only landings into such places, having such an arrangement in a ACMI environment is going to effectively create a 'single pilot operation'. This will be on a regular basis too, as the conveyor belt churns out more 'customers'! 
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Don't think the one who made the error could be described as highly experienced, and the AAIB report makes clear that on this type of A/C the other training Capt's also were unable to identify the impending hard landing and take control in time.
Nothing strange about the thread IMHO, but I find your comment strange
Nothing strange about the thread IMHO, but I find your comment strange
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Just a quick question: I know in the report there is a reference to CTC at one point.
I have my doubts this copilot actually went through any scheme run by CTC.
I think it is important to clarify what organisation runs this type of scheme.
So my question is
1.To which organisation did this copilot apply for a SSTR on A320 + line training?
Thanks
2.
I have my doubts this copilot actually went through any scheme run by CTC.
I think it is important to clarify what organisation runs this type of scheme.
So my question is
1.To which organisation did this copilot apply for a SSTR on A320 + line training?
Thanks
2.
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It wasn't CTC, most definetly. I believe a company called Sigmar Aviation was offering this type of 'pay your way' scheme back then. I do recall MyTravel (now Thomas Cook) being their partner airline.
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You just cannot teach "feel," when some guys have it from the beginning but some have to learn it for themselves through hours of experience.
I have flown with some guys who were really good with procedures and numbers, much better than me. One glance at a plate and they had it, where I really have to concentrate.
"Feel" stuff, though, some of these guys must have butts made of solid mahogany because they just don't feel a thing! Flying for them can be an intellectual exercise but landing with a wind shift can be anything but that!
I simply mean by "feel" that wonderful way humans have of picking up manifold subtle cues to apply them without conscious thought. Some of us, the really good pilots, have it all, intellect and feel. Most of us have more of one than the other, still enough of both to be safe but sometimes there can be problems in the learning phase, as here, it seems.
I hope this FO gets the remedial training he needs and carries on to be successful; I don't think you can blame him, really, for getting wrong under the circumstances. It is pretty clear from reading the report that more attention should have been paid to sorting out his landings before things went too far.
I have flown with some guys who were really good with procedures and numbers, much better than me. One glance at a plate and they had it, where I really have to concentrate.
"Feel" stuff, though, some of these guys must have butts made of solid mahogany because they just don't feel a thing! Flying for them can be an intellectual exercise but landing with a wind shift can be anything but that!
I simply mean by "feel" that wonderful way humans have of picking up manifold subtle cues to apply them without conscious thought. Some of us, the really good pilots, have it all, intellect and feel. Most of us have more of one than the other, still enough of both to be safe but sometimes there can be problems in the learning phase, as here, it seems.
I hope this FO gets the remedial training he needs and carries on to be successful; I don't think you can blame him, really, for getting wrong under the circumstances. It is pretty clear from reading the report that more attention should have been paid to sorting out his landings before things went too far.
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It is now all too common that the person sitting next to you on the flightdeck is there purely due to the depth of their pockets, or that of their parent's, instead of showing proper motivation and ability. Its little wonder flying has become so de-skilled when ability is less of a pre-requisite than willingness to pay!
Its about time people put a stop to this process of buying jobs before we see more incidents and the terms for all pilots further eroded. It was interesting to see BALPA finally address this issue in a recent edition of The Log and then have the nerve to carry an advert for a major supplier of self sponsored line training only a few pages on. I'm sure even PPRUNE would lose out if this process was stopped due to the adverts they host for 'pay to fly' schemes!
Its about time people put a stop to this process of buying jobs before we see more incidents and the terms for all pilots further eroded. It was interesting to see BALPA finally address this issue in a recent edition of The Log and then have the nerve to carry an advert for a major supplier of self sponsored line training only a few pages on. I'm sure even PPRUNE would lose out if this process was stopped due to the adverts they host for 'pay to fly' schemes!
Last edited by HN1708; 19th Dec 2008 at 21:27.
Hmmm.. the AAIB rarely delves a great deal into the crews backgrounds... esp. training records... saying that they are to be commended for their thoroughness.
Sadly, in this case, it demonstrates just what I have been saying for years, that dimwitted idiots with a lot of dosh can make it to the RHS of a 737/757/A320 with inadequate training and slips (overlooks?) through the cracks.
Met a few myself.
Sooner the SSTR and Pay for Line time is eliminated the better.
Sadly, in this case, it demonstrates just what I have been saying for years, that dimwitted idiots with a lot of dosh can make it to the RHS of a 737/757/A320 with inadequate training and slips (overlooks?) through the cracks.
Met a few myself.
Sooner the SSTR and Pay for Line time is eliminated the better.
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I don't agree with the 'pay and fly' approach to getting into the RHS of a jet, but the fact is it is here to stay. Furthermore, I do work with some of these guys and they all perform to very high standards.
The most notable part of the report was the consistent under performance of the Co-Pilot through out his training:
"However, it took him two attempts to pass the CPL skills test, and three to pass the IR test."
"The co-pilot’s ninth training detail was scheduled as the Licence Skills Test (LST) for issue of the A320/321 type rating, but the co-pilot did not perform satisfactorily."
‘initial landing OK but [the co-pilot]could not subsequently stabilise the aircraft on approach after going visual…..below 200 feet he allowed the nose to rise leading to a steep descent just prior to a hard landing. Three attempts with no improvement.’
I think this needs to be a lesson in when to tell someone that this career is not for them. It is clear that the writing was on the wall and he should have been chopped.
The most notable part of the report was the consistent under performance of the Co-Pilot through out his training:
"However, it took him two attempts to pass the CPL skills test, and three to pass the IR test."
"The co-pilot’s ninth training detail was scheduled as the Licence Skills Test (LST) for issue of the A320/321 type rating, but the co-pilot did not perform satisfactorily."
‘initial landing OK but [the co-pilot]could not subsequently stabilise the aircraft on approach after going visual…..below 200 feet he allowed the nose to rise leading to a steep descent just prior to a hard landing. Three attempts with no improvement.’
I think this needs to be a lesson in when to tell someone that this career is not for them. It is clear that the writing was on the wall and he should have been chopped.
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Hours on type are important. Yesterdays crash in Denver brought to mind the previous Continental crash in Denver and both pilots then had very little time on type. This was thought to be an important contributing factor.
Continental Airlines Flight 1713 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Continental Airlines Flight 1713 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Dear Ben,
Your spelling sucks, your grammar's awful, you can't land for toffee, and you really shouldn't be posting with fewer than 5000 hrs command on heavies, but...
...on a serious note, given that the bloke was paying to be there, not employed to be there, should he then have been told: 'we need to chop you or give you more training - if it's more training, then you'll have to pay'?
Surely he was just a customer, not an employee?
Your spelling sucks, your grammar's awful, you can't land for toffee, and you really shouldn't be posting with fewer than 5000 hrs command on heavies, but...
...on a serious note, given that the bloke was paying to be there, not employed to be there, should he then have been told: 'we need to chop you or give you more training - if it's more training, then you'll have to pay'?
Surely he was just a customer, not an employee?
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The main point was that this fella failed multiple tests and checks. I understand that everyone has a off day. Even I failed a couple of things
, but this guy's past record was consistently poor/bad.
Training makes up a chunk of a skillful pilot and natural ability is the other chunk. I'm sure a airline would have had deep concerns if he wasn't paying.
, but this guy's past record was consistently poor/bad.Training makes up a chunk of a skillful pilot and natural ability is the other chunk. I'm sure a airline would have had deep concerns if he wasn't paying.
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i think you will find it hard to gain experience in any trade/career/job or whatever discipline you wish to commit your life to nowadays when you first start out.the aviation world is no different , in fact i think it is worse as there are many people involved in this business now who think they are gods gift to aviation.it is not the same . no apprenticeships.no cadetships. and above all no commonsense.
all you paraffin budgie drivers step down and stop thinkin your the "dogs batteries".
all you paraffin budgie drivers step down and stop thinkin your the "dogs batteries".
Training makes up a chunk of a skillful pilot and natural ability is the other chunk. I'm sure a airline would have had deep concerns if he wasn't paying.
The only people on this forum "supporting" SSTR/Line time are those that have had the privilege to enjoy it (or wish to). Thankfully a minority.
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I think Touch n Oops has hit on the nub of it.
Why should a paying cadet be treated any differently from an employed cadet? Would someone who the company was paying for have been allowed to get to this stage following performances like that?
Would someone being paid be given multiple chances in the same way?
Unlikely, obviously everyone has a bad day on occasion, but where there is multiple bits of evidence that point to the pilot not reaching the required standard, then it is easier to chop someone who hasn't put themselves in hock.
TC's are human and will realise the sacrifice that someone has made financially to get to that stage and it takes a hard person to pull the rug out from someone. Especially if you have got to know them through the training.
It's easier to just let it go and let someone further down the line deal with the employability of this person. You might say to your HR people "don't employ" but all that happens is that when this person gets a job with another airline on the basis that have been line trained and are supposedly a more "reliable product", their short comings have just been swept under the carpet.
The day training became a cut cost item in aviation, we started on a very slippery slope and it is nothing short of amazing and a testament to quality of most pilots that nothing serious has happened so far. Swiss cheese anyone?
Why should a paying cadet be treated any differently from an employed cadet? Would someone who the company was paying for have been allowed to get to this stage following performances like that?
Would someone being paid be given multiple chances in the same way?
Unlikely, obviously everyone has a bad day on occasion, but where there is multiple bits of evidence that point to the pilot not reaching the required standard, then it is easier to chop someone who hasn't put themselves in hock.
TC's are human and will realise the sacrifice that someone has made financially to get to that stage and it takes a hard person to pull the rug out from someone. Especially if you have got to know them through the training.
It's easier to just let it go and let someone further down the line deal with the employability of this person. You might say to your HR people "don't employ" but all that happens is that when this person gets a job with another airline on the basis that have been line trained and are supposedly a more "reliable product", their short comings have just been swept under the carpet.
The day training became a cut cost item in aviation, we started on a very slippery slope and it is nothing short of amazing and a testament to quality of most pilots that nothing serious has happened so far. Swiss cheese anyone?
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You will get exactly what you pay for, which is the case here. How would you like the new bathroom plastered. A trial and error raw-recruit or an up and coming apprentice with maybe two years with a trowel in his hand. Come on !!
Koi Airbus and Boeing apprentice > 15000h
Koi Airbus and Boeing apprentice > 15000h
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Six year as FO in jet operations. Sixteen years in command. Never had to touch the controls while the other guy was flying.
Then again, everyone had a minimum of six years of prior experience before they got hired.
Of course, experience is overrated, until it's needed.
Then again, everyone had a minimum of six years of prior experience before they got hired.
Of course, experience is overrated, until it's needed.
Last edited by misd-agin; 21st Dec 2008 at 19:36. Reason: typo
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Despite being a wanabee I agree strongly with the opinions expressed in this thread - training organisations at every level are too happy to keep taking peoples money even once it becomes obvious that they are never going to have the capacity they need - as an instructor who has been through MCC with a large training organisation recently, I am happy to carry on hour building while I wait for an airline job to come along and am likely to have close to if not more than 1000hrs TT when that eventually happens. To my mind, that will not necessarily make me a better pilot than the 200 hr "hot shots" who come out of the pilot sausage factories but it will have given me more experience of aircraft handling in general plus airmanship plus all the other things airlines should be looking for - I am not saying "aren't I great" - I am just saying that the sooner these ridiculous schemes are outlawed the better (and safer) we will all be - I have been offered one of these schemes and I'm afraid I chose to turn it down on principal - I have already remortgaged my house too many times to want to do it again to pay an airline to let me get some work experience....! 
Oh and I also wanted to say that I have twice had to tell someone they should consider not paying for flying lessons any more because my employer would just keep taking their money - it was a really hard thing to do but in the end I don't want to train someone to fly who then goes on to have an accident because they just aren't up to it - harsh but in the end fair!
Oh and I also wanted to say that I have twice had to tell someone they should consider not paying for flying lessons any more because my employer would just keep taking their money - it was a really hard thing to do but in the end I don't want to train someone to fly who then goes on to have an accident because they just aren't up to it - harsh but in the end fair!
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You will get exactly what you pay for, which is the case here. How would you like the new bathroom plastered. A trial and error raw-recruit or an up and coming apprentice with maybe two years with a trowel in his hand.
continue.............. and probably flame.
Last edited by PeePeerune; 21st Dec 2008 at 19:59.