STN Security declares war on pilots
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Guys,Girls, the U.K. is a busted flush in every way. As others have said, the "security" monster that rules working pilot's lives is devised not to protect US, but to protect the sorry ass of the politicians who want to be seen to be "taking appropriate measures", even if they are wholly cosmetic measures rather than truly effective ones.
Lets face it, if there were effective measures in place then the airport "invasion" at STN could never have happened, right!?
In a wider sense, this country is morally and practically bankrupt - look at the Pound for confirmation of the latter. Its time to leave again, which is the end result of every long spell of Labour Government we have ever had.
Finding a better destination in a world in trouble is, I admit, a challenge, but its out there and worth looking for.
Happy Frisking for all meanwhile!
Lets face it, if there were effective measures in place then the airport "invasion" at STN could never have happened, right!?
In a wider sense, this country is morally and practically bankrupt - look at the Pound for confirmation of the latter. Its time to leave again, which is the end result of every long spell of Labour Government we have ever had.
Finding a better destination in a world in trouble is, I admit, a challenge, but its out there and worth looking for.
Happy Frisking for all meanwhile!
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Thanks for the info! I was not aware of that policy even though I have positioned through BAA airports many times! It does seem more than a bit strange though and I cannot really see any logic behind it. Its not as if I am trying to bypass any of the security checking arrangements with my pass. I am simply wearing it. Soon it will be illegal to wear the uniform too, we will have to get changed on the flight deck 
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The key to stopping this insanity was mentioned in a post on Page 1. (Sorry - have been away from an internet link for several days so I'm playing catchup)
Make sure that you and your crew have turned up on time and in all respects ready to fly. When the 'security' neanderthal stops you for some petty infringement like a ID/Sec Pass issued for some other BAA airport then simply call your operations centre, tell them the story and take the boys and girls back to the hotel (or nearest Starbucks) to wait whilst your employer sorts it out.
Nothing like having a gate blocked by a crewless aircraft to catch the airport operators attention.
You all know how the system works - use it against them!
Make sure that you and your crew have turned up on time and in all respects ready to fly. When the 'security' neanderthal stops you for some petty infringement like a ID/Sec Pass issued for some other BAA airport then simply call your operations centre, tell them the story and take the boys and girls back to the hotel (or nearest Starbucks) to wait whilst your employer sorts it out.
Nothing like having a gate blocked by a crewless aircraft to catch the airport operators attention.
You all know how the system works - use it against them!
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Very well said Xeque...
My SOP when I get stone walled by security, or the ground handling agent is to call company, explain the situation at hand in front of the individual that is the cause of the problem. I tell the appropriate party at my company to ring me when the problem is solved, since certain decisions that have to be made must be done so by those above my pay grade. Then I take my crew for coffee and await further instructions.
Its just not wortg the angst in going head to head with some of these wannabe leaders.
My SOP when I get stone walled by security, or the ground handling agent is to call company, explain the situation at hand in front of the individual that is the cause of the problem. I tell the appropriate party at my company to ring me when the problem is solved, since certain decisions that have to be made must be done so by those above my pay grade. Then I take my crew for coffee and await further instructions.
Its just not wortg the angst in going head to head with some of these wannabe leaders.
Last edited by captjns; 12th Dec 2008 at 13:31.
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I can understand the frustration of crews having to put up with the "numptiness" of many so called security regulations, and security jobsworths, but the best way to approach the problem is not through complaining (it has done nothing to date), but rather we should beat them at their own game - especially when it comes to ID passes for those who work in the field of corporate aviation.
Many of us don't have, and like me don't know where to go to obtain a "Crew ID" that seems to be required at so many airports nowadays. I'm not even sure that such a thing exists, but on so many occassions we are asked to produce one.
An American freelancer I recently used showed me a trick that works well at all airports, and for us at least the problem has been resolved.
The solution: A VERY professional looking card, one that he made on his computer, and had encased in hard plastic! It features only TRUTHFULL infomation which includes name, dob, licence number, aircraft reg, company name, expiry date and airport base, plus a load of nonsense bull**** including a bar code that means nothing at all (I'm using the price tag for a packet of crisps on mine!).
On the first day I flew with him to Germany I, with my licence and passport, was not permitted to return airside to fly the the plane I had landed an hour or so earlier. He, on the otherhand, with his home made ID was waved straight through! It took me 30 mins of arguing before I was permitted back to my airplane to join him.
Now, with my fancy looking ID, I can go anywhere - and on many occassions it has worked well as a substitute for my passport. It's worked at London's finest, and their worst (Stansted), and has so far been accepted everywhere throughout Europe, and with no bother whatsoever in USA.
Interestingly, at Stansted, it wasn't needed on one occassion when I had left it in the airplane. I was dircted to an airside entance that "will not require to see it!"
We all know that most of the numpties know nothing at all about the real regulations, so use your intelligence rather than vent anger. Outsmart them.....not by breaking the law in anyway, simply by showing them a card that states all of the truthful facts about you, your licences, your company and your airplane. What could be the harm in that - happy crew, happy jobswoirths!
Many of us don't have, and like me don't know where to go to obtain a "Crew ID" that seems to be required at so many airports nowadays. I'm not even sure that such a thing exists, but on so many occassions we are asked to produce one.
An American freelancer I recently used showed me a trick that works well at all airports, and for us at least the problem has been resolved.
The solution: A VERY professional looking card, one that he made on his computer, and had encased in hard plastic! It features only TRUTHFULL infomation which includes name, dob, licence number, aircraft reg, company name, expiry date and airport base, plus a load of nonsense bull**** including a bar code that means nothing at all (I'm using the price tag for a packet of crisps on mine!).
On the first day I flew with him to Germany I, with my licence and passport, was not permitted to return airside to fly the the plane I had landed an hour or so earlier. He, on the otherhand, with his home made ID was waved straight through! It took me 30 mins of arguing before I was permitted back to my airplane to join him.
Now, with my fancy looking ID, I can go anywhere - and on many occassions it has worked well as a substitute for my passport. It's worked at London's finest, and their worst (Stansted), and has so far been accepted everywhere throughout Europe, and with no bother whatsoever in USA.
Interestingly, at Stansted, it wasn't needed on one occassion when I had left it in the airplane. I was dircted to an airside entance that "will not require to see it!"
We all know that most of the numpties know nothing at all about the real regulations, so use your intelligence rather than vent anger. Outsmart them.....not by breaking the law in anyway, simply by showing them a card that states all of the truthful facts about you, your licences, your company and your airplane. What could be the harm in that - happy crew, happy jobswoirths!
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We were positioning from the UK to the Middle East. As we were on duty we tried to go through staff search as we are allowed to do. Numpty said because we were not in uniform we were not on duty and so must go through passenger search.
Back in the UK a few weeks later I saw couple of security staff going on their holidays waved straight through staff search in their shorts and flip flops, no ID to be seen!. My concern is there is no consistency.
I thought about writing to Chirp, The CAA, Balpa etc but what is the point?
Back in the UK a few weeks later I saw couple of security staff going on their holidays waved straight through staff search in their shorts and flip flops, no ID to be seen!. My concern is there is no consistency.
I thought about writing to Chirp, The CAA, Balpa etc but what is the point?
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fullyspooled
A BIZAV Aircew ID is available through your national BIZAV association. These are issued as an IBAC standard and are fully ICAO recommendation compliant. Check with the EBAA or NBAA. In the UK check with BBGA @ www.bbga.aero.
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This whole system is a farce.
I am based at a London airport. I have an ID from them which is valid. However, if you don't fly from that airport for one month the pass becomes "parked". This means it doesn't swipe and you basically can't use it at that airport. I presume this is an additional security "feature" to prevent stolen passes being used.
The interesting thing is that mine has been parked for many many months and yet I am still able to use the same pass at every other airport in the UK without a problem - they just give it a cursory glance and off I go. I wonder if security staff ever get to see what properly issued passes actually look like anyway?
So...I had to fly, on duty, but not in uniform, as a passenger on another airlines flight recently. Our crew room is airside. I went to the security point but they refused to let me through because my pass had been "parked".
So I went round to passenger security, showed them my boarding pass, then proceeded to the crew room.
The only way this will get resolved is for a politician to want to get involved with it. Then someone could instigate a UK National Airport Security Pass which actually involved proper checks on everybody that works at airports.
There would be a swipe system in place and a pin code for the various keypads at airports around the country. New codes would be promulgated regularly to airside pass holders email addresses or via their employer.
That way I wouldn't get stuck on an aircraft post-ferrying, at a UK airport where you have to swipe your pass to get out of the airbridge - what happens if the agent goes and you don't have a local pass? You can't get off!
I think everyone should have a thorough background check initially, prior to the pass being issued. No exceptions. Not even for foreign workers!!!
And don't even get me started on report times!!!! Report times should be increased by at least 15 minutes due to the security regulations we now have.
I am based at a London airport. I have an ID from them which is valid. However, if you don't fly from that airport for one month the pass becomes "parked". This means it doesn't swipe and you basically can't use it at that airport. I presume this is an additional security "feature" to prevent stolen passes being used.
The interesting thing is that mine has been parked for many many months and yet I am still able to use the same pass at every other airport in the UK without a problem - they just give it a cursory glance and off I go. I wonder if security staff ever get to see what properly issued passes actually look like anyway?
So...I had to fly, on duty, but not in uniform, as a passenger on another airlines flight recently. Our crew room is airside. I went to the security point but they refused to let me through because my pass had been "parked".
So I went round to passenger security, showed them my boarding pass, then proceeded to the crew room.
The only way this will get resolved is for a politician to want to get involved with it. Then someone could instigate a UK National Airport Security Pass which actually involved proper checks on everybody that works at airports.
There would be a swipe system in place and a pin code for the various keypads at airports around the country. New codes would be promulgated regularly to airside pass holders email addresses or via their employer.
That way I wouldn't get stuck on an aircraft post-ferrying, at a UK airport where you have to swipe your pass to get out of the airbridge - what happens if the agent goes and you don't have a local pass? You can't get off!
I think everyone should have a thorough background check initially, prior to the pass being issued. No exceptions. Not even for foreign workers!!!
And don't even get me started on report times!!!! Report times should be increased by at least 15 minutes due to the security regulations we now have.
fullyspooled
A million years ago, before 9/11, when crew I.D. cards were first invented, one of my crew reproduced his, with a picture of his dog instead of his own. Took a long time before a slightly less dim security guard than all the rest noticed, and that was when he was flying longhaul with BOAC around the worlds' airports.
I made my own many years ago, having retired and occasionally needing 'photo ID' for various reasons not associated with airports, works all the time - didn't even have a computer then, photo-copiers are fun, too !
"Security" is only to hassle the innocent, the real bad guys know how to circumvent it anyway - like I need a passing 5 year old to light my 'childproof' cigarette lighter when I need the barbecue !
........A VERY professional looking card, one that he made on his computer.......
I made my own many years ago, having retired and occasionally needing 'photo ID' for various reasons not associated with airports, works all the time - didn't even have a computer then, photo-copiers are fun, too !
"Security" is only to hassle the innocent, the real bad guys know how to circumvent it anyway - like I need a passing 5 year old to light my 'childproof' cigarette lighter when I need the barbecue !
Just had a thought - Since it's been shown that the security chimps do not follow the rules consistantly, might it be worth finding out their names and if they try to board any flights deny them passage, as they are obviously a security risk?
Two can play at their silly game ...
Two can play at their silly game ...
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LGW has been a bad one for me in this respect. Was flying back home on an ID ticket in order to facilitate getting through LGW security, with the intention of doing a CAA observation of one of our crews (I had just come from a meeting with the UK CAA). Came to check-in and was told "flight full - go away" (or about the same number of words with same effect). I suggested I would be taking the jumpseat however the not-so-young lady informed me that even off duty company employees are not allowed on the jumpseat. I assured her in no uncertain terms that CAA inspectors ARE allowed on the jumpseat, and I was happy to call an inspector of the UK CAA to explain things to her as slowly as was necessary - magically a boarding pass was produced!
Next at security, I got the no wearing of pass thing (even though it was just on a lanyard and stuffed into my shirt pocket at the time). I explained that it is a requirement that passes are worn when on duty and I most certainly was on duty. According to this McD reject I was not on duty becasue I was not in uniform. I was now intent on fighting the principle of the thing (in lieu of removing said pass and stuffing it in my flight bag). I offered to make the call to our CAA who would be happy to call the UK CAA who I am sure would be happy to call the airport manager in order to inform him that an inspector was being obstructed in the line of his duty. A rejected 1 star McD burger flipper then came over and whispered a word or two to the first one. Nothing more said.
I really do sympathise with you guys who have to go through this discrimination on a daily basis.
RIX
Next at security, I got the no wearing of pass thing (even though it was just on a lanyard and stuffed into my shirt pocket at the time). I explained that it is a requirement that passes are worn when on duty and I most certainly was on duty. According to this McD reject I was not on duty becasue I was not in uniform.
I was now intent on fighting the principle of the thing (in lieu of removing said pass and stuffing it in my flight bag). I offered to make the call to our CAA who would be happy to call the UK CAA who I am sure would be happy to call the airport manager in order to inform him that an inspector was being obstructed in the line of his duty. A rejected 1 star McD burger flipper then came over and whispered a word or two to the first one. Nothing more said.I really do sympathise with you guys who have to go through this discrimination on a daily basis.
RIX
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In the name of all that is holy, if you come from the Planet Belgrano Perrrrrleasee get the message across to the mandarins.
Airport security is out of control. In 5 years of persecuting crews, UK policy has failed to avert an attack at Glasgow, a Greenies protest at Hounslow Municipal, and a more sinister one at Stanport Airstead.
They have however amde a lot of mischief with plastic bags, and stopped a lot of shampoo.
Airport security is out of control. In 5 years of persecuting crews, UK policy has failed to avert an attack at Glasgow, a Greenies protest at Hounslow Municipal, and a more sinister one at Stanport Airstead.
They have however amde a lot of mischief with plastic bags, and stopped a lot of shampoo.
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CHIRPS has plenty of reports about security "hassling" pilots who then feel their ability to operate the aircraft safely has been compromised. I have experienced this myself. I try not to be affected by the "challenges" we sometimes get from security going "airside", but when you are held up while your colleague has been allowed through (because of inconsistency) safety is compromised (our procedures are based on a 2 crew concept in the flightdeck).
Presumably this has been "risk assessed" by our policy makers. I think not.
Sadly, a major accident involving loss of life, attributable in part to the issue being discussed here, may bring about a change for the better. What a tragic assessment of the state of our "system".
Presumably this has been "risk assessed" by our policy makers. I think not.
Sadly, a major accident involving loss of life, attributable in part to the issue being discussed here, may bring about a change for the better. What a tragic assessment of the state of our "system".
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There are some 8 terminals at JFK... Some terminals have more than one TSA check point... and guess what... they all have their own rules and regulations... even within the same teriminal.... you konw... "The World According to Garp". It even gets better... there is never a supervisor, that's supposed to be on duty, when issues arise... go figure?!?!
According the the feedback we're receiving, security related MORs are not being accepted by the CAA as they don't meet the MOR reporting criteria. Explains their comment in the recent CHIRP that they don't think there is a problem
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Somehow I think the CAA might be on the same planet as these security people.
I had a visit to the Belgrano where I needed to see someone about a licencing matter. I had gone to Licencing but it turned out that I needed Policy, over Licencing in the grand order of things.
All that was allowed was to talk to the Policy bod on an internal telephone line. To be allowed into their inner sanctum and be seated across from them was simply not on offer. It had been acceptable for me to travel all the way to CAA headquarters but I was not going to make it that extra 500 metres to their office, no. That said a lot to me about how we aviation professionals are treated by a prime service provider.
It is not a wild jump of the imagination from that to being harrassed by numpties at security checkpoints with absolutely no credit being given for showing, say, a licence or a logbook. I can see a point in this; you might have people who are so dull they just cannot tell the difference between a terrorist and a common or garden variety aviation professional so that they have to zero in on me as having something exceptional in my baggage such as epaulettes and a noise-cancelling headset with spare batteries.
You stand there patiently watching them run the stuff back and forth through the X-ray machine, peering intently at the image on the screen, when you would expect some procedure where they just ask, "Are you a pilot? Can you show me your licence and logbook?" say. That is clearly far too much to expect from people with no "people skills".
I had a visit to the Belgrano where I needed to see someone about a licencing matter. I had gone to Licencing but it turned out that I needed Policy, over Licencing in the grand order of things.
All that was allowed was to talk to the Policy bod on an internal telephone line. To be allowed into their inner sanctum and be seated across from them was simply not on offer. It had been acceptable for me to travel all the way to CAA headquarters but I was not going to make it that extra 500 metres to their office, no. That said a lot to me about how we aviation professionals are treated by a prime service provider.
It is not a wild jump of the imagination from that to being harrassed by numpties at security checkpoints with absolutely no credit being given for showing, say, a licence or a logbook. I can see a point in this; you might have people who are so dull they just cannot tell the difference between a terrorist and a common or garden variety aviation professional so that they have to zero in on me as having something exceptional in my baggage such as epaulettes and a noise-cancelling headset with spare batteries.
You stand there patiently watching them run the stuff back and forth through the X-ray machine, peering intently at the image on the screen, when you would expect some procedure where they just ask, "Are you a pilot? Can you show me your licence and logbook?" say. That is clearly far too much to expect from people with no "people skills".
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Funny how with all their resources the big airports can continue to get it so horribly wrong yet I have never had an issue in seven years of using Farnborough.
Yes, I know it's a smaller airport with lighter traffic but they also have fewer staff. They're always polite, efficient and friendly and I've yet to see them upset anyone be they passengers or crew. BAA and their lobotomised minions could learn a lesson there.
Yes, I know it's a smaller airport with lighter traffic but they also have fewer staff. They're always polite, efficient and friendly and I've yet to see them upset anyone be they passengers or crew. BAA and their lobotomised minions could learn a lesson there.
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At the meeting to which I alluded earlier in this thread, I learnt a lot about the UK CAA. When I was a pilot under their systems, they were nigh on the enemy.
Now as an expat Brit I was back there talking with my oposite number. I found out that in many respects they are the ones stuck between a rock and a hard place. When I go to work I have the relatively simple task of implementing JAR/EU FCL/OPS etc, as I interpret them and exercising due diligence. For us, we a small unit with a relatively simplistic structure and a "get it done" philosophy. Our flight crews can come in and have a chat any time, get advice in person etc.
The UK CAA has to deal with varying reporting lines through an organisation and political framework that is probably bigger than the whole civil service here! I came away from that meeting feeling pretty sorry for them (as much as I thought it would be impossible to feel sorry for the CAA).
I suspect that in the UK, any real change in the "security" situation would have to come from the Dft, and while there are politicians looking for votes how likely is that to happen?
The only route to a resolution of this madness is if politicians feel it on the votes balance sheet. The only way to make that happen is by a concerted effort to cause disruption to the travelling public. Our problem is that we are professionals and this goes against our very fabric. Maybe prune should have a thread dedicated to thinking of ways to bring an end to the farsical elements of crew security.
RIX
Now as an expat Brit I was back there talking with my oposite number. I found out that in many respects they are the ones stuck between a rock and a hard place. When I go to work I have the relatively simple task of implementing JAR/EU FCL/OPS etc, as I interpret them and exercising due diligence. For us, we a small unit with a relatively simplistic structure and a "get it done" philosophy. Our flight crews can come in and have a chat any time, get advice in person etc.
The UK CAA has to deal with varying reporting lines through an organisation and political framework that is probably bigger than the whole civil service here! I came away from that meeting feeling pretty sorry for them (as much as I thought it would be impossible to feel sorry for the CAA).
I suspect that in the UK, any real change in the "security" situation would have to come from the Dft, and while there are politicians looking for votes how likely is that to happen?
The only route to a resolution of this madness is if politicians feel it on the votes balance sheet. The only way to make that happen is by a concerted effort to cause disruption to the travelling public. Our problem is that we are professionals and this goes against our very fabric. Maybe prune should have a thread dedicated to thinking of ways to bring an end to the farsical elements of crew security.
RIX