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Awake for 20 hours? - you're good to fly !

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Awake for 20 hours? - you're good to fly !

Old 1st Dec 2008, 20:07
  #41 (permalink)  
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But there it is, a civil offer to discuss professional issues with present realities kept in mind.
Which raises a question of if this thread could develop into our sleep management thechniques, but on second thoughts, that would probably end up deleted, or in CRM or JB.

On that note ... I built an aditional room in the eaves of the house (previously dead space), which has no windows. Ideal for undisturbed sleep during daylight hours.

As for FTL, I really would like to see the current regulations adapted slightly. Even better than that, keep the existing rules but get adequate regulatory (NAA) oversight to ensure that sensible, considerate and safe practices are being followed within the framework of the existing system. Obviously this utopia will not happen until such time as the NAAs have staff number equalling the airlines.

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Old 1st Dec 2008, 20:41
  #42 (permalink)  
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As much as I can understand the concern voiced in the initial post of this thread, I miss a bit the comparison to the situation before the introduction of subpart Q.
Is there anyone who had more favorable regulations before?
It can always be better, but legislation changed for the better significantly, as far as I can see. We have WOCL, rest on and off home base (and a lot more of it), sector reductions and a lot of other stuff now that werenīt regulated at all.

I cannot follow the argument with the SBY at home though: Do you airline guys really get up at 6 and sit uniformed on your packed suitcase for 12hrs?
SBY starts at 6, stay in bed till 9, unless they call you earlier for a flight. If they call you at 6 for a 12:00 reporting time, get dressed, drive to the airport, go to crew planning and beat the hell out of them.
Or do I imagine that too simple?

Thatīs another slight problem with that: Subpart Q is made by airline people, for airline people. If you fly corporate, you have to follow the exact same regulations, but you have a hard time to even apply the definitions.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 20:51
  #43 (permalink)  
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I cannot follow the argument with the SBY at home though: Do you airline guys really get up at 6 and sit uniformed on your packed suitcase for 12hrs?
For me, almost. I live up to 60 mins away from work (depending on conditions on the day). I acually live less than 18 miles away, but my home is on the oposite side of the city. If the report time is the minimum 60 mins then I have to be out of the door PDQ. No option of rolling out of bed as soon as I get the call, taking a lazy shower, ironing my shirt, polishing my shoes, getting breakfast then slipping out of the door.

I agree that things are better im some ways than they used to be, but my current research has shown me just how much room for improvement there really is.

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Old 1st Dec 2008, 21:15
  #44 (permalink)  

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I know I am wasting my breath... but.


Older pilots have been at the airline flying business for a very long time, and have learned to cope
Yes you are correct, but that does not make it safe or sensible.

The sad truth is that unless people die because of this type of unsafe practice, nothing, but nothing will change.

So, yes, we all cope.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 23:42
  #45 (permalink)  
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Hallo Max,
Originally Posted by Max Reverse
Errr.... Is that a company agreement or in your countrie's version of the EU OPS? The German version says nothing regarding such a restriction. At least I haven't foud it yet.

Clarification much appreciated.

Thx, MAX
indeed this may be a regulation of our company. Thanks for pointing that out and sorry if I misguided anyone here!

For clarification I will quote now our OM-A regarding this matter:
When the crew member is notified to execute a FDP, the FDP starts:
a. at reporting time or show time (as applicable) if the notification and FDP are outside the WOCL
b. at the time of notification if the notification or FDP is within the WOCL
Note: Crew member positioning followed by a flight duty is considered a FDP.
Note: The time between notification and the reporting time or show-time under a) above is considered standby duty.

@Everyone else: Please don't feed the troll (411A), look what he has achieved, another f*c*ed up thread at PPRUNE because everyone jumped on him. Just ingnore him, I am using the "ignore-list" and it works just fine.

Last edited by EatMyShorts!; 2nd Dec 2008 at 09:38.
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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 06:59
  #46 (permalink)  
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Standby time is duty time, full stop, we used to have the same problem at my airline, they counted standby time as 'rest time'

Call outs at the end of your standby time could lead to your being awake far too long to be safe.

In this case the intervention of the FAA was a good thing..

No heroes please, in some managements world and 411 of course you are the saviour of the company if you run yourself into the ground with fatigue.

Or literally in which case they will pile the blame on you for not being more responsible.
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Old 3rd Dec 2008, 00:34
  #47 (permalink)  
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I would normally post something like this on the medical forum, but perhaps this is germane enough for this thread in R&N

As some sleeping pills double your risk of a car crash, the experts check out how best to ensure a safe night's sleep | Mail Online
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Old 3rd Dec 2008, 08:36
  #48 (permalink)  
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boys and girls, there are countries which are looking to follow JAR in the near future. Their FDTL have been written in the 60s and are still followed today. Jobs are available via agencies and big surprises are discovered only after the dotted line has been signed.

Some examples just from 1 country not too far off the European soil:
1. If most flights are exceeding 2000 km of distance the company can declare itself a long-haul carrier. In this case only 4 consecutive days off per month are required, no weekly off etc.
2. Standby is not defined, so you can and will be on standby for all days (24hrs) you are not scheduled to fly.
3. Only block-time counts. Rest-time starts at block-on and ends at next block-off.
4. Minimum rest is 7 hrs, with max block to follow of 7 hours.

Now an example of what this means in reallity:

Check in at 03:15 for departure of 05:15. Aircraft has technical problem and gets fixed at about 11:30. Departure now re-scheduled to 12:30. Off block at 12:40 (this is when your duty and flight time starts...)
4 sectors, last on-blocks at 23:50, total block is 6:57.
Until aircraft secured and taxi to Hotel, room check-in and finishing your shower it is 01:50.
Want something to eat or to drink? Better reconsider as you have to check-in for your next duty at 04:50 as your next departure is scheduled at 06:50, a 50 min delay to observe your min rest period (this has been explained to you at 02:30 by a very sharp-pencil-holder at Ops).
When arriving at check-in you are informed of a 'small technical' delay as the daily check will be finished only by 7:30.
But you are perfectly fit to operate now another 4 sector day with a block-time of less than 7 hrs, returning to your next destination by 18:35.
Unfortunately, due to your delay situation you can reach the next dead-head flight to homebase only 4 hours later, bringing you back to your car after about 41 hours....
Perfectly legal and, of course, absolutely safe.
Ahhh, forgot, the scheduled evening flight at 19:45 does not need any delay as your rest-period has been observed.

You can see that paper and reallity are 2 different issues. There is only one way to stay safe, declare fatigued! And you have to do this. It is for yourself, for your crew and for all the punters who paid for a safe trip.

And for all who do not believe in the shown scenario, you better do as the crew parking next to you at any of the major European airports may just be in the middle of a quiet similar situation.

Nevertheless, keep the shiny side up.
Old 4th Dec 2008, 10:31
  #49 (permalink)  
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Last time I checked; airline application criteria, JAR OPs requirements, etc. the qualification for pilots did not include insomniac.

There is a big difference between the 'macho right stuff' and today's professional airline pilot. Passengers expect top quality sharp alert pilots.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and the red eye, and the bad back, and the indigestion, and the near divorce and...........

If any pax complains about crews pulling off flights for tiredness, I'd always ask if they'd feel happy about being in the hands of a pilot who had slept only 4 hours in the previous 24, had 6 hours jet lag, and would be landing them 20 lours later on an NPA or circle, in lousy weather conditions. Hands up those who want to stay on board and go now, or wait 10 hours for the crew to get some sleep.

Remember, the decision about fatigue is difficult. If you start the duty tired, there is a good chance it'll be worse at the end, likely fatigued. Most companies will ask if you're refusing the flight due to fatigue now. That is not the case. It is your assessment of what you will be in 16 hours +. Even if you are fresh now, then in 16+ you will be tired. If you are tired now, in 16+ your will zombied.

And no cadet pilot went to flying school signing up for this manure. It's the 21st century, for heavens sake. Let 411A and his cronies live in the past, like the L1011.
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Old 4th Dec 2008, 21:58
  #50 (permalink)  
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Try working for an on call medevac operation. Get up at 0700, get called out at 2100. Don't get back to base till 1000 the next day. Finally get to bed @ 1200, and as sometimes happens, get called back out again that same night @ 2300. Thank the gods for coffee!
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Old 6th Dec 2008, 04:15
  #51 (permalink)  
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7.12.1 Which ever case you look at, you may do 6 hours of standby, to be sure we call it 5:59.

7.13 Pre-flight duties are part of the FDP, therefore on at 0600

0600 on duty, 2 sectors @12.15 = 18.15 total duty, i.e last land 00.01, and that includes the drive to work (presume within contract distance/time)

I remember it as so when CAA Vol 1 so I cannot see what has changed now it is EU?

BTW, I still see the other side, for all the posters 'passengers wish a fresh crew, alert etc.......

You wanna see some of the guys fresh of a rest day doing 30 straight for a 12 rest, their choice, 9 hours of it duty, the rest.............
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Old 6th Dec 2008, 09:05
  #52 (permalink)  
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Some simple facts...

Airline managements don't especially care about...

How far away from the airport you live.
How many children you have
Whether you need more 'family time', or not

What they do care about is bums in seats, and pilots on duty to fly those bums from A to B.
Oh, yes....don't crash, please.

If it's legal (duty time/rest time etc), it's legal....either comply or find another job.
And, there will be hundreds of applicants to fill your shoes it you pack your bags and quit.

Airlines simply don't give a hoot, as most FD crew menbers have realized by now, and so-called SMS/CRM etc doesn't change this fact one little bit.

In short, like it or lump it, airlines don't care.

Next question?
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Old 6th Dec 2008, 13:36
  #53 (permalink)  
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Dear 411A are you related to that famous explorer English bloke Pen Hadow?
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Old 6th Dec 2008, 15:33
  #54 (permalink)  
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NO he's not, just happens to be justifying shagged out 1011s on the Hajj Maybe he's missing his long lost expat per diem

Heck no, he's down in Boise reclaiming spuds
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Old 6th Dec 2008, 17:05
  #55 (permalink)  
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He is however (as is often the case although some don't like the message) speaking the truth, they don't care. I am not saying they should or shouldn't but the fact is they don't and will continue to roster to the limits of what is possible because they want to make as much money as they can (or lose as little as possible!)

Now I am not suggesting you should fly if chronically fatigued, but there is a big difference between that and feeling tired because you got up early and still have a long standby duty that could get turned into a long flight. Like it or not, operating safely and effectively when you are feeling past your best is simply part of the job and you just have to learn to cope with it.

Last edited by Max Angle; 6th Dec 2008 at 23:38.
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Old 7th Dec 2008, 05:23
  #56 (permalink)  
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The FAA doesn't care about international crew rest either. Domestic reserve crews must have specified duty periods, while international reserve crews are on duty and subject to callout 24 hours a day, six days a week.
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Old 7th Dec 2008, 07:37
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411A , in your car look at speed indicator let's say , max speed 240 km/h .
This is a limit , each time you jump in the car you push to 240 ?
FTL are the limits .
But for the management the limit is the standard.

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Old 7th Dec 2008, 09:53
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But for the management the limit is the standard.
Yup, and will be until the 'limits' are changed (lots of luck) by the concerned regulatory authority.
Makes no difference, old airplanes or new, old pilots or new...airline companies will continue to demand crews fly to the stipulated limit, like it or not...and I suspect many won't.

Don't like this arrangement?
Find another job.
IF you had wanted to work bankers hours, you should have applied to a bank for employment.

The FAA doesn't care about international crew rest either. Domestic reserve crews must have specified duty periods, while international reserve crews are on duty and subject to callout 24 hours a day, six days a week.
Yup, been this way for many years.
Ain't gonna change, either, you can bet your boots.

We seem to have many young(er) pilots here, new to airline flying.
It's a tough business, always has been, always will be.
Crying at the least provacation will do absolutely no good, whatsoever.
Oh...boo hoo.....
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Old 7th Dec 2008, 11:03
  #59 (permalink)  
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If i may...

I too (a CC), dread stand by days. As RIX mentioned, CC have it diabolical... But that's another story.

To go back on the pilots subject, in our company they follow the "minimum rest" rule. Say you've been flying 10hrs, you need 10hrs rest. Anything over that equals the rest period they say (think!) you need. Management will never care about your life outside work, as long as it's LEGAL, tough sh!t, deal with it.

Mr. ATS (who is a CPT and sometimes i think "CPTs are unlikely to be called out) has been called out several times and still managed to shower, shave, uniform on and off he goes, report at the time crewing requested. But when he finished, he was so tired he dived straight into bed and slept through the whole night, up again at stupid o'clock to fly punters safely from A to B.
My point is that (i think it was the thread starter who said it), this getting called out (which again, is oh so very legal) can mess up your body clock.

From experience, getting called out and threatened if "you don't get there in half an hr you'll have a no show" is very stressful and ads up to your tiredness. I used to panic and stress myself out so bad that i couldn't think properly. Until a while ago when i realized that they CAN'T give me a no show if I'm not there in half an hr, contract states i have to live within an hrs drive and in this hr i DO NOT include showering, putting my face on and doing my hair. And if they did call me out surely i was last option and if I'm not going to be there when they want me to, what are they going to do, cancel the flight?

On the other hand, i think stand by's are not so bad, it's crewing who messes up big style i.e. recently Mr. ATS got called out, rushed to the apt driving in the most dreadful weather, got to staff channel when he received a call from crewing saying they don't need him anymore. Meanwhile his colleague, all the same a very respected training CPT, got all the way to the ramp, no a/c there, phoned crewing to find out what time the a/c gets in only to be told "oh yeah.... we don't need you anymore"

So you see, pilots CAN and WILL make a requested on short notice report time. Yes they are tired, but shake off the tiredness to concentrate on flying, then come home, crawl into bed and die until the next day when they start all over again.
If crewing people would think twice before they act all would be great. You name one company where the crewing department is absolutely perfect and spot on and I'll buy you a beer or two!

Having said all of the above, i come to the conclusion that flying should be made 9 to 5, Mon to Fri. No? Was worth a try....


PS: I shouldn't say this but....... I will. One thinks 411A could be Paarmos' long long long long lost brother
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Old 7th Dec 2008, 12:13
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Hey 411, I believe you speak like that because you got the boot from a major. Was it TWA or AA?

Like in physics, from an action there's a reaction. So if management doesn't care about their most precious asset i.e. their people, there's allways a reaction. And that is working to rule and one of the rule is not working if fatigued.

It's sad to see things coming to this point on the 21st century. But when you have to work time and time again feeling nackered it's about time you get your voice heard.

We, as pilots, all have the sense of duty, of having his/her mission accomplished and that is why management has been taking advantage of to push the limits. From what I've read in this forum, a lot pilots are feeling that this profession should be a way of living not of dying.

Check Six Krueger...
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