Qf72. Do Airbus Must Stop Their A330/a340 Fleet.
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I still have (unreasonble) worries flying but sit in the back often enough to be used to it by now. I am perfectly happy for me and my family to fly in A330/340 aircraft - my son flies from Oz to France in a week or so in just one of these and I am cerain he will have a perfectly fine flight.
I have total confidence in the guys (and girls) up front and after reading this forum for a long time can appreciate just a little of what is involved in getting us from a) to b) in very great safety. I cant recall reading such a lot of nonsense, grounding aircraft based on this incident - although I will be even more careful with my seat belt in the future. Keep up the great work guys (not the sime ones but).
I have total confidence in the guys (and girls) up front and after reading this forum for a long time can appreciate just a little of what is involved in getting us from a) to b) in very great safety. I cant recall reading such a lot of nonsense, grounding aircraft based on this incident - although I will be even more careful with my seat belt in the future. Keep up the great work guys (not the sime ones but).
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Pax Rat could be me too. I am a slightly and unreasonably nervous passenger and frequent these forums as a way of learning the reality of commercial aviation. It is safe and I know that by being here. I trust 99.9% of those up front, in the cabin, and in the hangar.
What I have learnt here is the value of PRUNE. I wish more people would learn more before typing!
TME
What I have learnt here is the value of PRUNE. I wish more people would learn more before typing!
TME
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If Airbus and/or the Authorities didn't ground A300/A310s after the loss of the tail, or the A320s after several crashes, then they will not be grounding A330s over this incident.
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Dozy, do you actual have anything relevant to add regarding the A330 incident or are you trying to score points? Going by your profile name, it appears you don't quite have the knowledge and experience to make any real input....but please enlighten us?
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I used the example of Airbus, because is what I ride.
But I believe that no aircraft manufacturer is going to ground any fleet, even for one or two days. The economic pressure is very high.
Think about the B777 accident at Heathrow, what if the engines stopped over siberia or on a go around?
What if the Iberia A340-600 at Quito stopped 45 meters far away after the cliff?
What if QF72 control failure ocurred in a high congested traffic area?
We have the tendency to lesser the things and start calling serious accidents incidents if there is not casualities. But in the 60s, 70s no aircraft manufacturer had fear of grounding an entire fleet.
Yes, the industry is very safe and fail proof, but are we going to resign safety now? Are we happy with the safety level or we want more.
Here in Spain two months ago 162 people died in an aircraft crash. The problable cause was the reason another accident 20 years ago and this problem was well know by the industry.
I believe that we are resigning safety. In the Spanair flight the F/O was flying. He was only fliying that aircraft from one year, and probably he did the minimum sims to obtain the rating to saving costs. Probalby he didnt made any sim related to the first MD82 flaps accident, windshear or abnormal config recoveries during take off, and probably he only made one refesher sim before the accident.
We used to do that, but this was long time ago. I remember when I was in my 20s crashing a lot of times in the B727 SIM, due to uneven or unknow problems that I never experienced before.
I learn a lot then, but things have changed.
But I believe that no aircraft manufacturer is going to ground any fleet, even for one or two days. The economic pressure is very high.
Think about the B777 accident at Heathrow, what if the engines stopped over siberia or on a go around?
What if the Iberia A340-600 at Quito stopped 45 meters far away after the cliff?
What if QF72 control failure ocurred in a high congested traffic area?
We have the tendency to lesser the things and start calling serious accidents incidents if there is not casualities. But in the 60s, 70s no aircraft manufacturer had fear of grounding an entire fleet.
Yes, the industry is very safe and fail proof, but are we going to resign safety now? Are we happy with the safety level or we want more.
Here in Spain two months ago 162 people died in an aircraft crash. The problable cause was the reason another accident 20 years ago and this problem was well know by the industry.
I believe that we are resigning safety. In the Spanair flight the F/O was flying. He was only fliying that aircraft from one year, and probably he did the minimum sims to obtain the rating to saving costs. Probalby he didnt made any sim related to the first MD82 flaps accident, windshear or abnormal config recoveries during take off, and probably he only made one refesher sim before the accident.
We used to do that, but this was long time ago. I remember when I was in my 20s crashing a lot of times in the B727 SIM, due to uneven or unknow problems that I never experienced before.
I learn a lot then, but things have changed.
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The A330 has an excellent safety record. It is not warranted to ground the worldwide fleet due to this isolated incident. I do agree with Strongresolves point that safety has been allowed to slip in some matters of aviation past. But I do not feel this incident is in the same arena.
Daily life as a Pilot involves dealing with the unexpected, being prepared for situations and dealing with them as best you can. We rely on other professionals to service and maintain the Aircraft, prepare our flight planning and assist us in safe Navigation. But ultimately, the final decisions about flight, fall back on our plate. Commanders responsibility. We are trained to deal with known failures and problems, we use out knowledge/experience to deal with unknown/multiple failures. Thats our Job.
I am not as brave as rainboe, but I have every faith in the A330 as a safe aircraft.
.
Rainboe, what are civilians? hehe. Are they the military version of Joe Public ?
.
Daily life as a Pilot involves dealing with the unexpected, being prepared for situations and dealing with them as best you can. We rely on other professionals to service and maintain the Aircraft, prepare our flight planning and assist us in safe Navigation. But ultimately, the final decisions about flight, fall back on our plate. Commanders responsibility. We are trained to deal with known failures and problems, we use out knowledge/experience to deal with unknown/multiple failures. Thats our Job.
I am not as brave as rainboe, but I have every faith in the A330 as a safe aircraft.
.Rainboe, what are civilians? hehe. Are they the military version of Joe Public ?
.
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We have the tendency to lesser the things and start calling serious accidents incidents if there is not casualities. But in the 60s, 70s no aircraft manufacturer had fear of grounding an entire fleet.
Yes, the industry is very safe and fail proof, but are we going to resign safety now? Are we happy with the safety level or we want more.
Yes, the industry is very safe and fail proof, but are we going to resign safety now? Are we happy with the safety level or we want more.
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What if
Strong resolve
By your own admission, if those are your concerns, then you should not be leaving home and walking in a street or taking any form of transport.
By your own admission, if those are your concerns, then you should not be leaving home and walking in a street or taking any form of transport.
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Comet grounding?
...And the Comet fleet had how many total hours/cycles at the time of grounding?
...And the A330/A340 fleet has how many hours/cycles now?
...And the A330/A340 fleet has how many hours/cycles now?
Rainboe;
Let us remain encouraged by the fact that those to whom intelligent, professional, informed and respectful dialog is directed are capable of sifting wheat from chaffe and carry on, ignoring contributions with a high MSFS factor.
Ignoring ignorance, stupidity and/or the troll factor keeps such from gaining a foothold from which to contaminate otherwise worthwhile threads.
The experience and obvious accuracy by those who know, stands out as does the opposite. The moment such ignorance is responded to, the floor is theirs as is the thread, as is our attention.
Genuine questions by passengers, sincerely keen on learning, are equally easy to recognize and a good opportunity for learning, as are those suggestions borne of immature behaviour which isn't interested in learning but attention-seeking.
PPRuNe is "being strangled by idiots" because those who respond to same are facilitating and enabling it. Extinquishing such ill behaviour by ignoring it works as well here as with children.
For student pilots, one way or another, aviation itself will deal with the arrogance of "one-hour wonders". Ego, arrogance, over-confidence etc are unhealthy personal qualities brought to aviation and not qualities engendered by aviation.
Learning by asking is the mark of a true aviator, whether they have 10 hours in a Cessna or 30,000hrs in heavy transports. If someone thinks they're special just by holding a pilot's license, I'd recommend no one fly with them until they calm down and learn a bit...
Why rail, set one's hair on fire or raise one's BP when invisibility works just as well? Those who seek attention will not find it, while those who seek knowledge will learn either by simply shutting up and reading the contributions of professionals, or asking out of a personal effort put in through such reading.
For those who do not fly professionally but who continue to challenge those who do, let them live in chosen ignorance. Do we really think that it is only in PPRuNe that such approaches to life are expressed?
QED.
Let us remain encouraged by the fact that those to whom intelligent, professional, informed and respectful dialog is directed are capable of sifting wheat from chaffe and carry on, ignoring contributions with a high MSFS factor.
Ignoring ignorance, stupidity and/or the troll factor keeps such from gaining a foothold from which to contaminate otherwise worthwhile threads.
The experience and obvious accuracy by those who know, stands out as does the opposite. The moment such ignorance is responded to, the floor is theirs as is the thread, as is our attention.
Genuine questions by passengers, sincerely keen on learning, are equally easy to recognize and a good opportunity for learning, as are those suggestions borne of immature behaviour which isn't interested in learning but attention-seeking.
PPRuNe is "being strangled by idiots" because those who respond to same are facilitating and enabling it. Extinquishing such ill behaviour by ignoring it works as well here as with children.
For student pilots, one way or another, aviation itself will deal with the arrogance of "one-hour wonders". Ego, arrogance, over-confidence etc are unhealthy personal qualities brought to aviation and not qualities engendered by aviation.
Learning by asking is the mark of a true aviator, whether they have 10 hours in a Cessna or 30,000hrs in heavy transports. If someone thinks they're special just by holding a pilot's license, I'd recommend no one fly with them until they calm down and learn a bit...
Why rail, set one's hair on fire or raise one's BP when invisibility works just as well? Those who seek attention will not find it, while those who seek knowledge will learn either by simply shutting up and reading the contributions of professionals, or asking out of a personal effort put in through such reading.
For those who do not fly professionally but who continue to challenge those who do, let them live in chosen ignorance. Do we really think that it is only in PPRuNe that such approaches to life are expressed?
QED.
Last edited by PJ2; 26th Nov 2008 at 18:33.
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Well said Rainboe, well said PJ2 - I just can't be bothered to spend enough time at the keyboards to argue with these 'experts'... However I do spend enough time in the left seat of 332/343/345 to be able to tell you all that they really are very excellent aeroplanes, funny ADIRUs or not
WK - "However I do spend enough time in the left seat of 332/343/345 to be able to tell you all that they really are very excellent aeroplanes, funny ADIRUs or not"
And the 320 series - fully agree; done the same since '92, - beautiful airplanes, esp, the 345.
And just to shove an oar in the water, non-moving thrust levers are a non-issue but to each his/her own.
And the 320 series - fully agree; done the same since '92, - beautiful airplanes, esp, the 345.
And just to shove an oar in the water, non-moving thrust levers are a non-issue but to each his/her own.
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Rainboe,
You are completely correct in everything you have written on this thread. You display a maturity of knowledge borne, I guess, of many years in this industry. You have been harangued by people who, frankly, know nothing of the career experience as an airline pilot.
I respect your tenacity in doggedly arguing your case to these amateurs / tyros/ timewasters.
Years ago I gave up with "Rumours & News" due to dilettante attitudes that made me embarrassed to count those contributors among my professional (or maybe wannabe) aviators, hence I stopped contributing.
So after not inconsiderable thought about whether to reply or not (and a glass or two) I break my Golden Rule to congratulate you.
Should we ever meet downroute, the evenings on me!
You are completely correct in everything you have written on this thread. You display a maturity of knowledge borne, I guess, of many years in this industry. You have been harangued by people who, frankly, know nothing of the career experience as an airline pilot.
I respect your tenacity in doggedly arguing your case to these amateurs / tyros/ timewasters.
Years ago I gave up with "Rumours & News" due to dilettante attitudes that made me embarrassed to count those contributors among my professional (or maybe wannabe) aviators, hence I stopped contributing.
So after not inconsiderable thought about whether to reply or not (and a glass or two) I break my Golden Rule to congratulate you.
Should we ever meet downroute, the evenings on me!
Thread Starter
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I asume inherent risks and go flying when I have to. I prefer to see the planes from inside rather than from outside. My concern is not if I assume the risk, my concern is if every one in the industry is concerned about risks, at least like me.
In the military aviation, we went in harms way, but in civil aviation the game is take the plane from point A to point B, with a chance of success of 99,99%, and if it possible saving some fuel.
To acomplish this I have to be very well trained in flying and managing, I have to able to fly a plane manually in congested airspace with no risk or no room error, and manage all aircraft systems to reduce work load, increase passenger confort and economy. I have to be a Pilot/Aviator and a Manager. In this times, the first part of this is not a value anymore.
My concern is that aviation is becoming a bruch of SOPs. And not for safety, but economy.
Some years ago, no SOP told me when I should have the A/P conected. It only recomended to use it in dense traffic airspace. This is fine and very logic, because it reduces workload.
But now, the same SOPs require the use of A/P from 400 feet to final approach in any flight and any field. Also it denies me the use of A/THR, I only can use it in turbulent approaches or in the case of failures.
If I dont follow SOPs, and say, one day I dont use A/P or A/THR and I break the plane, for example in a hard landing, they are going to blame me for no following SOPs, not for doing the hard landing, even if the final cause have nothing to do with the SOPs requirements.
Lack of piloting skills is not a concern anymore. The only important thing in the SIM are the SOPs, because with this SOPs you dont need to fly the plane by hand, just do written things of the manual and follow ATC instructions. Only if the thing becomes ugly you have to disconect and fly by hand, and then, will you consider your self captable of flying an aircraft without A/THR?
If your plane has an unexpected problem, dont worry, follow the SOPs and we will see.
In the military aviation, we went in harms way, but in civil aviation the game is take the plane from point A to point B, with a chance of success of 99,99%, and if it possible saving some fuel.
To acomplish this I have to be very well trained in flying and managing, I have to able to fly a plane manually in congested airspace with no risk or no room error, and manage all aircraft systems to reduce work load, increase passenger confort and economy. I have to be a Pilot/Aviator and a Manager. In this times, the first part of this is not a value anymore.
My concern is that aviation is becoming a bruch of SOPs. And not for safety, but economy.
Some years ago, no SOP told me when I should have the A/P conected. It only recomended to use it in dense traffic airspace. This is fine and very logic, because it reduces workload.
But now, the same SOPs require the use of A/P from 400 feet to final approach in any flight and any field. Also it denies me the use of A/THR, I only can use it in turbulent approaches or in the case of failures.
If I dont follow SOPs, and say, one day I dont use A/P or A/THR and I break the plane, for example in a hard landing, they are going to blame me for no following SOPs, not for doing the hard landing, even if the final cause have nothing to do with the SOPs requirements.
Lack of piloting skills is not a concern anymore. The only important thing in the SIM are the SOPs, because with this SOPs you dont need to fly the plane by hand, just do written things of the manual and follow ATC instructions. Only if the thing becomes ugly you have to disconect and fly by hand, and then, will you consider your self captable of flying an aircraft without A/THR?
If your plane has an unexpected problem, dont worry, follow the SOPs and we will see.
Last edited by Strongresolve; 26th Nov 2008 at 23:13.
Rainboe;
In print, yes they do, but, stating the obvious, noise doesn't make something correct. Those who know and are sincere in their interest will learn, those who are forever needy will never learn; The professionals can tell the difference in an instant. Under the heading of 'some things we can't control', except that it detracts from and interferes with, the open dialog noise needn't matter. It is, after all, an anonymous dialog.
Anyway notwithstanding, your contributions are thoroughly readable and worth the sifting. You continue squishing the imposters and I'll continue ignoring them.
kindest
PJ2
they have just as loud a voice as any sane pragmatic individual who knows what he is talking about.
Anyway notwithstanding, your contributions are thoroughly readable and worth the sifting. You continue squishing the imposters and I'll continue ignoring them.
kindest
PJ2
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AN SLF's perspective
Rainboe/PJ2,
I think you both raise very valid points over the quality of post's by unqualified people - after 8 months or so of reading this even I can pick out the quality from the dross. As from the title you can see I am such a person, however I do find it a bit off that you tar all of us with the same brush - there are quite a few of us that only post when it is sensible to do so, make our status known when we post and engage in what we consider to be sensible discussions raising valid quiestions/points to hopefully further the ongoing discussion.
I myself am a little irked such as you both are when people make comments out of hand clearly displaying a lack of understanding or even of having read the thread. I think the policy should be if it is not going to add value dont post it (regardless of one's status) and mods delete it if it does not.
What I would say is that if you restrict this to only true professional pilots then you will be missing out on the different perspectives other people from other walks of life can bring - i.e. what about maintenance staff, cabin crew and flight engineers ? Your status being professional pilots is one to be respected however it could be in some situations your training and experiences lead you to think along particular lines whereas it may take someone unskilled such as SLF to pose different questions that then prompt you to consider other items (I am not saying that happens but it is a possibility).
My final point about clamping down on the forums is that it provides a great service to the populous. In reading this I see past the dross reported by SKY/BBC, the sensationalist junk printed in the press and get to view a balanced discussion of events in aviation. These forums provide an avenue that should there be a valid question, I can ask it and typically a professional pilot will answer it completely and factually - this is invaluable as you dont often meet a professional pilot down the pub and you cant exactly go bang on the cabin door when in flight saying you have a question.
In summary, whilst I agree there is a problem, I would hate to see a clamp down to address this - I would much rather people made their status known and were encouraged to consider what they were saying before hitting the submit button. I would much rather have to ignore the chaff rather than lose the use of a valuable resource.
Well I said my bit, have a good day - I am going back to reading rather than writing now.
Cheers
Jofm5
p.s. No Flight Sim or PPL - just fascinated since visiting a B737 flight deck.
I think you both raise very valid points over the quality of post's by unqualified people - after 8 months or so of reading this even I can pick out the quality from the dross. As from the title you can see I am such a person, however I do find it a bit off that you tar all of us with the same brush - there are quite a few of us that only post when it is sensible to do so, make our status known when we post and engage in what we consider to be sensible discussions raising valid quiestions/points to hopefully further the ongoing discussion.
I myself am a little irked such as you both are when people make comments out of hand clearly displaying a lack of understanding or even of having read the thread. I think the policy should be if it is not going to add value dont post it (regardless of one's status) and mods delete it if it does not.
What I would say is that if you restrict this to only true professional pilots then you will be missing out on the different perspectives other people from other walks of life can bring - i.e. what about maintenance staff, cabin crew and flight engineers ? Your status being professional pilots is one to be respected however it could be in some situations your training and experiences lead you to think along particular lines whereas it may take someone unskilled such as SLF to pose different questions that then prompt you to consider other items (I am not saying that happens but it is a possibility).
My final point about clamping down on the forums is that it provides a great service to the populous. In reading this I see past the dross reported by SKY/BBC, the sensationalist junk printed in the press and get to view a balanced discussion of events in aviation. These forums provide an avenue that should there be a valid question, I can ask it and typically a professional pilot will answer it completely and factually - this is invaluable as you dont often meet a professional pilot down the pub and you cant exactly go bang on the cabin door when in flight saying you have a question.
In summary, whilst I agree there is a problem, I would hate to see a clamp down to address this - I would much rather people made their status known and were encouraged to consider what they were saying before hitting the submit button. I would much rather have to ignore the chaff rather than lose the use of a valuable resource.
Well I said my bit, have a good day - I am going back to reading rather than writing now.
Cheers
Jofm5
p.s. No Flight Sim or PPL - just fascinated since visiting a B737 flight deck.