FAA proposes 40-48 hour rest after 'ultra-long-range flights'

[PJ2]

Glueball;

Well, I didn't put it quite so pithely but I know precisely what you mean; Scheduling, Ops, the accountants, the company negotiators and even the regulator know some pilots can be "bought" as described. They are the pilots who are pointed to when others are trying to create suitable duty day regulations against the substantial onslaught by the airlines' lobbyists - in Canada as well as the US. In my view such personal values are unprofessional. True, there are circumstances which advantage both oneself and the company but I've known some to "volunteer" for a YYZ-LHR turn "to help out"...and to extend duty days far beyond both contractual and regulatory limits either for "future considerations" or for a direct change in scheduling not originally bid. A nineteen-hour-'plus' two-leg duty day for example may make an individual a lot of money and cause a trip drop for more time off but the airline makes quick note and "knows who to call". Pretty discouraging for those negotiating for duty days that actually take science into account. Thank goodness such are a tiny minority.

[dhc2widow]

Allied Pilots Association Critical of American Airlines’ Lawsuit Opposing FAA’s Enhanced Crew-Rest Rules

Posted : Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:54:30 GMT
Author : APA-FAA-CREW-REST

FORT WORTH, Texas - (Business Wire) The Allied Pilots Association (APA), certified collective bargaining agent for the 11,500 pilots of American Airlines (NYSE: AMR), termed “unconscionable” American Airlines’ lawsuit opposing enhanced crew-rest and other safety requirements recently enacted by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). American Airlines filed the lawsuit jointly with several other carriers.

“The National Transportation Safety Board has identified as one of its ‘most wanted transportation safety improvements’ the reduction of aviation accidents and incidents caused by human fatigue,” said APA President Captain Lloyd Hill. “American Airlines management’s effort to block new crew-rest rules that are designed to reduce the well-established safety risks associated with pilot fatigue is nothing short of unconscionable. We cannot fathom their rationale.

“Numerous scientific studies have compared the fatigue induced by periods of prolonged wakefulness to the debilitating effects of intoxication,” he said. “In the exacting world of commercial aviation, we must do all we can to combat the dangers posed by fatigue.”

Hill noted that APA has been a longtime proponent of updating airline pilot flying, duty and rest limitations to combat pilot fatigue and enhance safety. International flight and duty rules pre-date the modern jet age, long before the advent of ultra-long-haul flying such as American Airlines’ Chicago-Delhi service using extended-range Boeing 777s. APA, American Airlines management and various other industry stakeholders participated in the FAA-convened working group that crafted the new rules the carriers are seeking to circumvent.

“The new FAA rules are based on a greatly improved scientific understanding of the effects of fatigue on human performance,” Hill said. “Although we would like to see the FAA take a more aggressive stance on pilot fatigue, we consider the new rules to be a step in the right direction.

“American Airlines management’s resistance to common-sense measures designed to enhance the margin of safety is yet another example of short-sighted decision-making. Cost-cutting should never take precedence over safety,” he said.

Founded in 1963, the Allied Pilots Association—the largest independent pilot union in the U.S.—is headquartered in Fort Worth, Texas. APA represents the 11,500 pilots of American Airlines, including 1,969 pilots on furlough. The furloughs began shortly after the September 11, 2001 attacks. Also, several hundred American Airlines pilots are on full-time military leave of absence serving in the armed forces. The union’s Web site address is www.alliedpilots.org. American Airlines is the nation’s second-largest passenger carrier and fifth-largest cargo carrier.


Allied Pilots Association
Captain Sam Mayer, 817-302-2350/203-731-1112
or
Gregg Overman, 817-302-2250/817-312-3901

Allied Pilots Association Critical of American Airlines’ Lawsuit Opposing FAA’s Enhanced Crew-Rest Rules

[Cruella De Ville]

Fatigue risk management

I work on the safety side and crew fatigue risk management has been sponsored largely by NTSB in the USA based on the its findings from various accident investigations over the years. Whilst in Australia last year, we had NTSB come over with a freighter pilot who had survived a nasty crunch at Guantanemo. Certainly, this accident event was due to fatigue and there is no doubt about that. However, the hours the flight crew had worked were extraordinary - but legal!! Problem is this: even if 40 or so hours rest periods are mandated between passenger revenue flights, this doesn't imply that the flight deck crew are 'rested.' There are many variable factors. Some pilots find it difficult to sleep given time-zones, hotels (noise and changes of environment), diet and so on. So an arbitrary 40 hour rest period may not be the panacea the FAA hopes it to be. Equally, it is interesting that the FAA perceives that long haul involves higher potential fatigue issues than short haul sector flights where the number of take-offs and landings are much higher in a tour of duty. The obvious stressor that contributes to fatigue is life on the domestic front!!

[GlueBall]

Cruella De Ville . . .

the FAA perceives that long haul involves higher potential fatigue issues than short haul sector flights where the number of take-offs and landings are much higher in a tour of duty. The obvious stressor that contributes to fatigue is life on the domestic front!!

Your point is well taken and easily understood. The domestic sectors flight limitations is an easy fix: Limit flight duty time to 8 hours and maximum of 3 sectors.

But the domestic sectors are largely free from the debilitating assaults on the circadian rythms effected by long haul and ultra long haul east-west sectors.

Why don't you check it out yourself and ride merely as a "passenger" LAX-HKG. Go ahead, cross 8 time zones and the Int'l Date Line in darkness. Upon arrival at dawn, after an all night 14+ hours flight, tell us what day it is; tell us where you are and where you've been; tell us in what zombie state that you find yourself in, and tell us your state of usefulness for the next few days.

[Wiley]

... and that's after you've slept for much of the way in your passenger seat en route!

[411A]

We cannot fathom their rationale.

I certainly can.
The company simply wants to have the FD crew actually earn their salary, instead of sitting at home, like a bond holder clipping coupons.

Having done long haul flying for a very long time, dozing for dollars is not all that wonderful (all things considered) but all of my long haul flying is single crew (12 hour max limitation) with no rest facilities.

The modous operande for these flights is to actually get some rest beforehand, not puttering around at the slip station, as many crews do.

Then, these crews cry...we are not rested...I say oh boo hoo, climb down off your high horses and get real.

Enroute rest facilities are generally quite adequate from what I've seen, so no sympathy from me about these.

AA management are right on target, IMO.

[wiggy]

Getting "some rest beforehand" instead of "puttering around" is a great idea, until you are based in, say Europe, and are slipping in somewhere like NRT, where the wake up call goes at around 1 AM on your body clock, just when you have finally got to sleep. So yes, I guess on ocassions some of us pampered Long Haul types don't feel "rested" ....then again I'm not sure 24 or 48 hours so called "rest" makes any difference to your state of mind ( "Lost in Translation" got that right..now where's Scarlett -oh yeah, probably in the truck....)

[411A]

oh yeah, probably in the truck....

Oh yeah, the good 'ole truck at NRT.
Been there, done that...but not before a long flight, as I've seen many crew do (strangely, the Captain was nearly always missing...getting adequate rest, I would hope...) Still having a good time at 1am, with a call six hours later, phooey to this I say.

The problem I see is the short slips...these need to be much longer (mine were usually a minimum of three days), not 24 short hours, which seems to be the norm now, with some carriers.
Give the body clock time to adjust, never a problem with the airlines that I flew for.

But no, some FD crew want max time at home, OK as it were, but not the best from a 'rest' point of view.

I repeat...longer slips is the key to adequate rest, nothwithstanding some FD crew desires.

[Low Cost Eng]

411A


'modous operande'


It is actually modus operandi. I only point this out just to show you don't know everything as so many of your posts imply.

[slamer.]

411A.. things have changed, the Trucks been closed for ages.... probably because crew are now to tired to party and are resting. (the good old days are long gone)

[Gillegan]

One part of this not really covered is specifically how many time zones are you out from your home and when are your arrival and departure times in relation to your home timezone. In my opinion, these are the critical questions as to whether you can get adequate rest in 24, 36, 48 or 60 hours. As many of these flights are single daily flights, the layovers that are not multiples of 24 hours are usually not practical from a commercial standpoint.

I did a DXB-IAH trip with a 48 hour layover. The time zone change was 11 hours difference. On our first day there, I absolutely hit the wall at the time I would have been reporting had the rest been 24 hours. Our airline then made the layover 24 hours and was inundated with fatigue reports.

I then did a DXB-GRU flight where the time zone change was 7 hours. The shorter (26 hours) layover was quite do-able because my body wanted to go to bed about 8-9 hours before report time.

What's alarming are the number of replies that indicate being rested is not even a consideration, but rather maximizing days off at home or minimizing the layover in a less than desirable city. I don't do as much ULR flying as many of my colleagues but the rest issue is incredibly important to safety. That we have so many pilots willing to blow off the safety aspect is damaging to our credibility as professionals. As always, we seem to be our own worst enemy.

[Shaka Zulu]

411A & Gilligan, agree entirely with your statements.
We are our own worst enemies and beancounters are more than happy to listen to the min days off downroute argument.

[Cruella De Ville]

Hi GlueBall: I do know what it's like to travel several time zones - I make the trip between Europe and Australia several times a year - prior to 9/11, on the flight deck. As my comment stated, there are many factors that affect fatigue risk; a 40 hour layover is not necessarily the remedy to cure fatigue. Many external stressors can present themselves as flight deck errors but their origin has nothing to do with the 'job.' It's not just pilots who are affected; LAME's have much the same issues over a 12 hour tour of duty and the same attention regarding fatigue risk is not yet addressed at the maintenance level. Fatigue is a very big subject that has many contributors and it is deserving of a wider lattitude of consideration. Prescriptive regulation is not all together right, either. If you are a mother or father with a new born child, sleep deprivation is an issue. You can have 40 hours off but only get about 4 hours of quality sleep when at home. Yet, under current proposals, you would be fit to fly. This was my point. In respect of short haul, I'm not convinced that limiting the number of sectors is going to address fatigue. As I said, this is a big subject and an emotive one, from the comments on this thread.

[The SSK]

As I said, this is a big subject and an emotive one, from the comments on this thread

It's about to get bigger and more emotive. EASA will publish their 'medical and scientific analysis' of EU FTL this week. Sh1t, fan, etc

[AnthonyGA]

FAA drops anti-fatigue proposal for long-haul pilots

This is a month old, but I did a search and it didn't look like anyone had mentioned it previously:

FAA Drops Its Rest Plan for Pilots on Long Hauls - WSJ.com

Summary: After pushing hard for changes in work rules for pilots on long-haul flights in order to reduce fatigue, the FAA has abruptly withdrawn its proposal for changes under pressure from the airline industry.

[kappa]

You missed this one

FAA Proposes 40-48 hour Rest After Ultra Long Range Flights

[Huck]

The FAA motto - "Nobody's been killed yet...."

[Thylakoid]

The problem I have with these ULR flights is the definition of such flights. EK, for instance, smartly defined ULRs as those flights over 16 hrs.
The bosses (who don't do any of those flights) insist they are legal. The flights could be legal, but are morally and phisiologically wrong.

Therefore, they get away with most of their long range flights, as far as crewing them is concerned.

We have flights to the Far East in which the crew is composed of one captain and two f/os. Most captains rarely rest properly on those flights; since they worry about being away from the cockpit manned by two "less qualified" colleagues.

In my view, any flight over eight hours flight time should have four pilots, period.

Obviously there are people who are good to fly again after a twenty-four resting period; most aren't. Fatigue has subtle symptoms which might not be recognized by most folks.

[merlinxx]

Avoidence of Fatigue in Flight Crew

One wonders why we in the UK had the scientific study back in the late 60s & early 70s that led to CAP371. Does no one else listen

No comments from the cowboys who still want to apply FAR91 FTLs/FDLs to all their operations

[Ancient Observer]

Study and science

I realise that the debate on this thread is mainly about personal experience, preference and prejudice, but all this scheduling/time zone/effectiveness stuff is well researched.
I'm no expert on the research, but maybe one of the FAA/CAA/military readers of this thread will give us the info?