FAA proposes 40-48 hour rest after 'ultra-long-range flights'
jet_air
From the admitedly blinkered perspective of a crew slip I've always given India the 
On one hand the airports aren't great, perhaps comparable to JFK, and the paperwork is mindboggling. On the other hand the good Indian Hotels are the dogs doo dahs, certainly far better than some of the thinly disguised motels that we use in the States.
On one hand the airports aren't great, perhaps comparable to JFK, and the paperwork is mindboggling. On the other hand the good Indian Hotels are the dogs doo dahs, certainly far better than some of the thinly disguised motels that we use in the States.
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Onboard Rest Facilities a Factor
I recall that the 747-400 cockpit bunk room was far superior to the reclaimed coat closet/lavatory on the 777..which was across from another operating lavatory...I often felt that I was attempting to nap on a submarine at war (during the flush-cycles)...WHOOSSHHH "fire one"....WHOOSSHH ""fire two".......DINGDONG.."HI, your break's over with". Very Restful.
All the medical and anecdotal evidence points to 12h, 36h, 60h, etc. as being the best compromises for downroute rest periods. Unfortunately (and I do have some sympathy with the airlines here), unless you have more than one flight a day to a particular destination, it is likely that it is scheduled at the same time throughout the week, thus generating 24h, 48h, etc. slips. Not really anyone's fault and hard to see a solution. 
In terms of ULR, I used to think that it would be easy to cope with minimum rest and get more days at home but having done it for over a decade now, I would be loath to give up the part of our agreement which gives us a day off downroute before/after an ULR sector. I find it gives me the chance to get out of the hotel, do some exercise, enjoy some decent food & drink and get some quality sleep as a result; this leaves me able to get on with my life once I do get home, rather than wandering around in a stupor for a day or two.
We do have "rest facilities" but they're not the greatest and being a light sleeper I find it difficult to get more than 3-4hrs interrupted dozing out of a possible six-plus on a 14hr+ sector, so having had a good kip before is important for me.
Another issue is the length of duty with ULR. By the time you add in getting to and from work you can be up for >20hrs at a time, which is not something I would recommend doing repeatedly over a short period. I don't think you really fully recover and end up slowly ratcheting down without realising.
In terms of ULR, I used to think that it would be easy to cope with minimum rest and get more days at home but having done it for over a decade now, I would be loath to give up the part of our agreement which gives us a day off downroute before/after an ULR sector. I find it gives me the chance to get out of the hotel, do some exercise, enjoy some decent food & drink and get some quality sleep as a result; this leaves me able to get on with my life once I do get home, rather than wandering around in a stupor for a day or two.
We do have "rest facilities" but they're not the greatest and being a light sleeper I find it difficult to get more than 3-4hrs interrupted dozing out of a possible six-plus on a 14hr+ sector, so having had a good kip before is important for me.
Another issue is the length of duty with ULR. By the time you add in getting to and from work you can be up for >20hrs at a time, which is not something I would recommend doing repeatedly over a short period. I don't think you really fully recover and end up slowly ratcheting down without realising.
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Fullwings wrote:-
All the medical and anecdotal evidence points to 12h, 36h, 60h, etc. as being the best compromises for downroute rest periods. Unfortunately (and I do have some sympathy with the airlines here), unless you have more than one flight a day to a particular destination, it is likely that it is scheduled at the same time throughout the week, thus generating 24h, 48h, etc. slips. Not really anyone's fault and hard to see a solution.
I challenge this submission as either we are interested in flight safety through adequate rest or we operate whatever the operator needs for his schedule. Schedules can be designed to be crew sensitive to ensure adequate rest; this is a slippery slope in my opinion!
All the medical and anecdotal evidence points to 12h, 36h, 60h, etc. as being the best compromises for downroute rest periods. Unfortunately (and I do have some sympathy with the airlines here), unless you have more than one flight a day to a particular destination, it is likely that it is scheduled at the same time throughout the week, thus generating 24h, 48h, etc. slips. Not really anyone's fault and hard to see a solution.
I challenge this submission as either we are interested in flight safety through adequate rest or we operate whatever the operator needs for his schedule. Schedules can be designed to be crew sensitive to ensure adequate rest; this is a slippery slope in my opinion!
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Well from my point of view, each person has his own rythm of sleep, rest, etc. and that's the problem.
The same flight will be terrible for one pilot, and a real sweet flight for an other.
Then some want to get home fast, and others like to spend some time away from home.
The same flight will be terrible for one pilot, and a real sweet flight for an other.
Then some want to get home fast, and others like to spend some time away from home.
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Would North American or Western European pilots really want 40-48 hour layovers in India (or other Asian cities after “ultra-long-range flights“?
Would North American or Western European pilots really want 40-48 hour layovers in India (or other Asian cities after “ultra-long-range flights“?
Used to have three days in BOM and DEL, nice HOTAC, pleasant time for all.
Superb food as well, at many fine restaurants.
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Often do 4 ULR flights over an 8 day pattern and you're pretty rough whatever you do as you've spent half of it being up all night, especially if you're relief/cruise. Takes 2-3 days to get over it back home.
We also do a Europe-Asia-16h rest -fly back, which is just ridiculously tiring.
What works for me is as much sleep as I can get before and after as I find the bunks onboard a pretty lousy place to crash out (dry, noisy, hard) and consider more than 3 hours sleep a bonus. Though I'd choose a 15 hour day flight over a 4 hour night flight any day, whatever the rest.
And I stay religiously on base time. The bonus is I'm awake to party all night. The drawback is I end up doing tequila slammers at lunchtime
We also do a Europe-Asia-16h rest -fly back, which is just ridiculously tiring.
What works for me is as much sleep as I can get before and after as I find the bunks onboard a pretty lousy place to crash out (dry, noisy, hard) and consider more than 3 hours sleep a bonus. Though I'd choose a 15 hour day flight over a 4 hour night flight any day, whatever the rest.
And I stay religiously on base time. The bonus is I'm awake to party all night. The drawback is I end up doing tequila slammers at lunchtime
manrow,
And your solution is...?
When flying from one slot-restricted airport with night bans to another, similarly bound airfield, how exactly do you vary the schedule during the week to allow better rest periods? I'm not in management but even I can see the difficulty inherent in getting a working plan together with so many constraints - and we haven't even mentioned any commercial ones yet. I'd love to see every slip based on (n * 24) + 12 but I have some idea of how non-trivial that would be to arrange.
I don't like night flights, especially when my body is asleep as well but considering half the globe is dark and the terminator moves at up to 900kts, it would be difficult to avoid *some* lack of sun, even if I owned the aircraft.
I challenge this submission as either we are interested in flight safety through adequate rest or we operate whatever the operator needs for his schedule. Schedules can be designed to be crew sensitive to ensure adequate rest; this is a slippery slope in my opinion!
When flying from one slot-restricted airport with night bans to another, similarly bound airfield, how exactly do you vary the schedule during the week to allow better rest periods? I'm not in management but even I can see the difficulty inherent in getting a working plan together with so many constraints - and we haven't even mentioned any commercial ones yet. I'd love to see every slip based on (n * 24) + 12 but I have some idea of how non-trivial that would be to arrange.
I don't like night flights, especially when my body is asleep as well but considering half the globe is dark and the terminator moves at up to 900kts, it would be difficult to avoid *some* lack of sun, even if I owned the aircraft.
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Fair comment FullWings, and I regret to say I have no solution!
But this is to be expected as either we ALL work the employers schedules, or we find an alternative. One alternative might be that those pilots who can work with minimum rest (under present rules) day after day should do so. After that for the benefit of us all, we have to find a compromise as I suspect that the majority of pilots cannot SAFELY work a 24h hour repeating schedule after ULR flights without being seriously debilitated; hence a solution has to be found.
But this is to be expected as either we ALL work the employers schedules, or we find an alternative. One alternative might be that those pilots who can work with minimum rest (under present rules) day after day should do so. After that for the benefit of us all, we have to find a compromise as I suspect that the majority of pilots cannot SAFELY work a 24h hour repeating schedule after ULR flights without being seriously debilitated; hence a solution has to be found.
...Which brings us back to the title of this thread. It's not a complete solution but it's major progress to those who don't get any sort of protected days with ULR ops. Is 40-48hrs off sandwiched between two 16hr+ duties better than 24hrs? I reckon a majority would say yes. Would 36, 60... be better? Again, I think most would agree with that. Keep the pressure up.
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Continental, American sue FAA over new pilot-rest rules
The two carriers are challenging the legality and the safety benefits of the new rules for pilots of ultralong-range flights lasting 16 hours or longer, according to the Wall Street Journal
Several other US airlines have joined the lawsuit agaist the FAA, including United, US Airways and jetBlue:
Airlines sue FAA over crew rest rules | Business news | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
Airlines sue FAA over crew rest rules | Business news | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
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CO Pilots oppose FAA rule
According to the Associated Press,
"Continental pilots -- who have flown between Newark, N.J., and Hong Kong for more than seven years -- sided with their airline in opposing some of the FAA's requirements. The union told regulators that Continental's minimum rest after arriving in Hong Kong was adequate."
"Continental pilots -- who have flown between Newark, N.J., and Hong Kong for more than seven years -- sided with their airline in opposing some of the FAA's requirements. The union told regulators that Continental's minimum rest after arriving in Hong Kong was adequate."
". . . The union told regulators that Continental's minimum rest after arriving in Hong Kong was adequate."
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Most of the "in-house" resistance to increased rest periods comes from many self centered, selfish weasels who are rabid about getting home soonest by any means under any conditions. These fools can be found at all airlines. They are smooth talking, self absorbed, busy bodies: Friends of the rostering department; willing subjects of creative expediency in squeezing duty limitations to get themselves home earlier. 