Air France Pilot Strike - where's the news?

[Me Myself]

I hope the AF pilots will come to the conclusion that it makes no sense to hurt your own company, when the government makes an unreliable move.

What is the position of the AF-management in this matter?
Are they willing to negotiate a better pension scheme that is less dependant on government rules?

You know the proverb " In Rome do as the Romans do ". Here it unfortunatly means that if you don't show " some muscle " it is interpreted as " Let's go they're weak ". I don't know if some of you are french speaking and got to see this pathetic movie ( blockbuster here to my dismay ) called " Dîner de con ". The story of well off yuppies who each month invite to diner a nice bloke whom they make fun of the whole evening. You have to be french, and a wicked one at that to find this " funny ha ha !! " It's crazy, unproductive but is very much rooted in the french soul. Anyone who is upfront nice is taken for a bloody fool and I'm sure many of you have experienced " Parisian arrogance ".

This has, with time, created a general feeling of distrust that makes one party dig its heels in the sand and the other try to screw them.
Only when hooddle of money has been wasted do people sit around a table to talk.
Our very union board got sacked at the last election because of its negociating line. Pilots, specially the younger one who never had to suffer anything, wanted a much stronger stand. Instead they got 6 weeks of a fruitcake chairman who resigned because he couldn't stand the heat, from management and from the union opposition.

Anyway back to topic :
The pension reform line was : incent people to go to 60 instead of cashing in after 25 years. In order to do that, the pension was supposed to be substancially raised. This would of course not happen overnight but I think 2015 was the tharget to get the new system into full swing by which time, if you chose to leave before 60, you pension was dimished by a certain percentage. Of course if you lost your licence before hitting 60 you were entitled to full pension.
Since we have the dubious priviledge to share our fund with the cabin crew and non AF pilots, you can easily imagine the feud it led to.
The governement told us it would implement the reform but said the exact contrary to the cabin crew who were / are threatening to strike early next month. Who should we believe is anyone's guess but that certainly doesn't make us very trusty.
Yes, it is a shame to hurt one's compagny but, the very compagny could weigh a lot more if it decided to with the governement. They are just being very naughty in the matter and had they really put their full energy into this, there would have been no strike.
There is however a big BUT. The new pension reform would imply that AF contribution to the pilots fund go up about 20% and this is precicely what they want to avoid still looking like angels and why they didn't put too much energy in defusing the crisis since, according to promises made to cabin crew by the governement, the reform would not be implemented and AF would't have to cough up. Everyone but the pilots was walking out happy.
They don't really care if pilots push on to 65 but do care about having their contribution increased. So you see, 100 mill Euro in comparison to a higher contribution was worth the bet.
None of this has really been explained by the media ( what do we expect ??? ) or by the pilots who, in a way, were trying not to piss of the cabin crew by making this public.
As you see, this is a snake pit and there is a lot more than meet the eyes.
We should have a pilot's fund and not this communist farce. But this happens to be th law, 1953 to be accurate, by which we have to go. Being the most financially prolific population, the lawmaker isn't about to let us take our assetts and go our separate way.

Hope this is clear enough.

[australiancalou]

France is the latest communist country in the world just see the slogan Liberty equality fraternity...
Liberty to think the single way you have to otherwise jail, equality to pay for the social system but more for some of us, fraternity like the old humanist rule.
Everything in France is hidden behind the magnificient word: Democraty...

Concerning the French pilot's Retirement funds you have to know that you cannot work as a pilot in an other state and be paid from the fund at the same time even if you have got your full rights.

You lucky pilots from Holland cannot even imagine the way people really live in France, this so lovely country from the outside and so uggly from the inside one of the most corrupted country in the World, paradise for the red brigades, ayatollah Komeny, bokassa, south american top narcos, and so on.

Most of the French people are friendly hard workers and clever despite the brain wash they endure since their birth in the wonderfull education nationale system learning children the pensee unique (single way of thinking), one of the World's most efficient "lead to think as WE want" system even KGB was admiring during cold war.

So please do not as friends from the World's pilot community say AF pilots are responsible of the AF/KLM group losses because they fight to keep a decent retirement fund and don't want it to be merged with the abyssal hole of French National fund.

Tot ziens and think as pilots not paperscratchers...

Concerning Me Myself I feel better now that I know the origin of his nickname

[Me Myself]

Concerning the French pilot's Retirement funds you have to know that you cannot work as a pilot in an other state and be paid from the fund at the same time even if you have got your full rights.

Which is still being done as I speak. Cheating being a national sport here. I hear on a daily basis of retired pilots collecting their pension while working for some dogy outfits that pay them peanut ( Vuelling in this particular case ). The flip coin of cheating is.............wistle blowing which has happened to a couple of guys who had to make up their mind, flying or retirering. What would you know, suddenly working for peanut didn't make sense to them anymore with their income amputated of their pension.
Before you fly off the handle in outrage, do bear in mind this is a collective fund where the working generation pays for the retired. If the later chooses to work longer, why should the younger bust their toush to give them money ??? Surely, this makes sense even to the most free market oriented individual. It is not as if you had saved a lump sum and walked away with it which would be your business and nobody else's.

There is no CRPN police roaming the world to catch those who are STILL cheating the system. Mind you, from what I hear, you just have to go to XL airways to find some of those gents, right here in CDG.
They'd better have not accident or just taxi into the grass as they'd end up right in court, probably having to pay everything back. What to say of liability.
Ausraliancalou, sadly, your comments are right on the money. What amazes me though is, Amsterdam being some 500km away from Paris, not one journo bothered to inquired about other airlines. Talk of brainwash !!

[australiancalou]

Me Myself are sure for XL Airways?
I thought it was a French AOC Airlines nowadays after the sad bankrupt of the Brit's mother house.
Maybe I misunderstood what you said but I think you were refering to CITYJET in CDG...

[rageye]

this is a collective fund where the working generation pays for the retired.

There's the big difference between the French and Dutch. About half a century ago the Dutch pilots started a pension fund, that is independent of the working generation. Everybody builds up his own pension which is based on individual income and years with the company. The premiums are paid by pilots and company. By the time AF bought KLM for 784 million euro, the pension fund had a surplus of 2,4 billion euro.
The credit crisis has hurt the pension fund of course, but there is still some surplus and for the time being no dark clouds on the horizon of the BlueSkyGroup

Some KLM pilots start a career at an other airline after retirement.
This does not influence their pension. After all they paid for it themselves

[australiancalou]

Some KLM pilots start a career at an other airline after retirement.
This does not influence their pension. After all they paid for it themselves

Wise you are.
But French fellows didn't have the choice.
Communists deal with human growing, Capitalists deal with money growing.
What's the best?
At the End the natural commun sense will say: Your are too many people on this Earth and too fat as well. Something really bad should then happen.

Just see how US pension funds invested in the working market forcing the Compagnies to make redundancies and increase immediat profit to finally turn into bankrupt when the entire system stopped to work because of low consumption (Same for oil price and so on).
The only solution is from my point of view to give money to workers and authorize investments in the restricted area of assets.

Concerning retirement, I don't want my kids to be the system slaves and none of the Communism nor ultraliberlism are acceptable.
I used to fight for workers property of their working tool and investors property of the assets. In such a system workers create consumption and investors give them the means to work. That's why sometimes man say I am a ******* communist and some others a ******* capitalist.

I am just trying to stay a human being and moreover a pilot (That's for leadership).

Good luck to our sacrified generation and be prepare to fight for the rights of the next one. As I realized, fighting for his own rights is always worst than fighting for the rights of the next to come...

Tot ziens

[Me Myself]

Rageye

I'll tell myself your post whe I put myself to bed. Sounds like the kind of fairytale my Mama used to tell be at bedtime. I usually fell asleep with a big smile on my face.
Nowadays, I wake up screaming in the middle of the night, in sweat and my heart pounding.

[Me Myself]

[/quote]

Maybe I misunderstood what you said but I think you were refering to CITYJET in CDG...

No, you got me right, I meant XL, but that's only from hear say, that would need to be checked. However, the Vuelling one is a fact and this gent suddenly discovered that it wasn't worth it and went to enjoy gardening. Wether he had to repay what he had collected I don't know.............but I've stopped believing in Santa.
City Jet ??? Any AF pilot could work for them...........again, provided they didn't collect their pension.
Anyhoo, this won't be an issue in 2010 when pilots are allowed to work beyhond 60. Guess what !!! Those retirering in 2009 are lobbying to see the amendment implemented this coming New Year !!! The very same who were protesting aginst 65 just a few weeks ago !! They too, want a slice of the pie.

En effet, le texte déposé devant les sénateurs garantit que les conditions d’un départ à 60 ans, qui reste l’âge légal de cessation d’activité, sont les mêmes qu’aujourd’hui. Ce n’était pas le cas de l’amendement soutenu par quelques députés et PNT 65.

Finally and I am sorry to post this in french as it comes directly from the French ALPA site, what was voted by the upper house is very different from the first draft voted par the parliament. In short, 60 remains the legal age, thus securing all the material benefits of retirement BUT it becomes possible to work beyond 60. It does sound very silly I know, but this little trick makes the whole thing legally stable. The compagny will not be able to change those material benefits.
The strike, as wastefull as may have appeared ( and it always is ) also carried another benefit which was to show that pilots can mobilize and are to be reckoned with. I am not saying this in a bravado way but you have to know that under President Sarkozy, a totally new union representation scheme is being discussed.
In short, unions who do not represent at least 10% of the total number of employees will be considered as non representative and therefore will have no legal existence anymore. Be gone AF ALPA !!
4000 Air France pilots..............75000 employees !!! We'd find ourselves in the positions our german colleagues were a short while ago, having our contracts negociated by ground staff !!!
The next government offer was " Let's have a flight crew union and make pilots and cabin crew a happy family "
4000 pilots............dunno exactly but around 20000 + cabin crew " Here we are all of sudden with cabin crew negociating our contracts !!! Talk of " ambiance " on the flight deck !!
Finally, after having assessed what a pain in the toush we can be when made cranky, it seems we will remain a recognized " union " in the legal term of the word. Had the strike not been followed, it is a very different message the governement would have received.
In short, imagine BALPA all of a sudden losing all its legal representation rights and having Dolly at the back decide what your take home would be.

As I am writing this, I realize the kind of padded cell we live in. I must have written governement a bezillion times in this post when all it is about is collective agreement within the compagny. But as stated by Australiancalou this is how things work here. Scary !! Don' t you think ??

[rageye]

the pensee unique

En Pays Bas nos avons liberté de penser

Au revoir et bon vols

[AF jockey]

All this is well. But over-simplistic indeed ! The French people is way more complex than you describe. The French are not communist, as a matter of fact, the communist party scored an all time low at a mere 3% during the last presidential elections while the conservative Sarkozy collected 53%. Enough of these cliches of the French wearing beret hats, driving Citroen 2 CVs, accordeon music playing in dirty smoke-filled bars and women not shaving arm pits. France is very capitalist.

What's true though is that a tiny minority has the means to bother the entire country for backward reasons. And the entire country is outraged at that situation because they feel they work hard while a bunch of protected, unharmed civil servants are so rigid.

Now, regarding France sheltering Bocassa and other dangerous individuals, have a look at England protecting Immams preaching Holy War against that very country providing them with social security, lodging, money, etc...

Now the pilots' side of facts. Pilots at Air France retire at the age of 65 while pilots at KLM retire at the age of 56/58. The French retire with much lower pension premiums than their Dutch collegues. The SNPL had been considering the implementation of a reform that would have helped improve this situation. The government, in their admirable will to put everybody back to work, has decided to pass new laws without even talking to the SNPL, voting at night when everybody's asleep, like shameful cheating husbands.

I did not strike as I feel recession requires strong standings and involvment from employees. But I think the gov't's methods are cr.p.

[rageye]

Now the pilots' side of facts. Pilots at Air France retire at the age of 65 while pilots at KLM retire at the age of 56/58. The French retire with much lower pension premiums than their Dutch collegues.

Let me add one more fact: KLM pilots paid a high premium over lot's of years to acquire their pension.
Most people don't bother about their pension when they're young and sometimes complain about the premiums they have to pay. I'm very glad that there were some colleagues with a vision about 50 years ago, who developed this pension fund.
Nowadays it's one of the best in the world.

I did not strike as I feel recession requires strong standings and involvment from employees.

Bravo