Air France Pilot Strike - where's the news?

[luc]

Fouga,

You are wrong. There are other ways to make sure that the CRPN is financially viable!!!
It was sorted. It is now a blackmail by the government linking the two ( CRPN reform amd retirement age) together!!!
And yes you are entitled not to agree with me. I wouldn't dare suggest the contrary. I just noticed that you lectured (you did,sorry!) pilots and the whole country about what you call elementary economics.
Surely AF ( therefore the pilots as well ) must be doing something right since we transformed it from a nearly dead airline into one of the largest airlines in the world in 10 years...
Bons vols à toi!!!!

[Me Myself]

Luc !!!! You are a gem !!! I would have lost patience long time ago.
I've already forgotten our fellow country man's name living on the other side of the channel but here it comes :
First, CRPNPAC isn't bleeding..........sorry, wouldn't be bleeding cash if the governement had decided to implement the bloody reform that took us 2 years to come up with, garantying full pension at age 60, and not before that, like it was the case where you could collect your pension after 25 years. This makes the fund sound over the long term precisely to ensure a safe and full retirement at 60. Odd that most of those who want to carry on are .........against the reform !!
Not enough for uncle Nicolas though who would really like to merge our (' juicy ) fund with the general system, which sure as egg, would have us work until 65 because that's the rule that applies there.
Apparently a lot of people on this thread haven't got the grip on the fact that ( most ) AF pilots do not wish to work after 65. If some fools want to work themselves to the grave, be my very guest, but do not force others to take a shovel.
As long as I do not see my contract changed, by all means do go ahead. This is the very issue of the strike.
Now, spare me all that nonsense about the travelling public's wellfare and this sickening PC.
Strike is messy and ugly, it's about yes !!! GREED !! And as Gordon Gekko and his fellow vultures in the ............errrrr City !! said " Greed is good " .
Merely applying a concept you Poms have embraced long ago ; so please spare me with your pontifying and hypocritical comments about wellfare. Defending your rights, I say again rights can be bloody at times.
There is no other option apart from...........keeping a stiff upper lip. Wrong side of the channel for that I'm afraid.

If you in the UK want to get nicked keeping your cools, then again, go right ahead. And while I'm here most of you should really get to the bottom of this, provided you are interested. People didn't wake up one morning last week saying " Gee !! Let's have some fun and make people's life miserable " This is the result of months of feud and mess where SNPL was basically........invisible and pilots too lazy to worry about something they thought was taken care of while they were suning themselves on the beach.
In the end all this is about fairness, decency and keeping one's word ( governement ) as well as respecting elected representatives (' one of which I'm not ).
Then again, if you want to live in a world where a minority of people with not representation rights can have their own agenda with parliament and impact big time on your life, then get rid of BALPA but do not mess with us !
Luc, I hope you're not too bruised mate !

[Mary P.]

French Pilots striking? Really? How unusual!

Mary

[Longhitter]

Me Myself: you forgot to mention that AF is only profitable because they have a de facto monopoly on their home market. Just wait until competition pops up that they cannot buy out or kill off by unfair competition or lobbying the french government for legal obstacles for LCCs.

Easy and Ryanair are slowly chipping away at the AF block. You will be better off if you look further into the future in stead of stubbornly hanging on to all kinds of perks that might jeopardise the future of AF. Standing up for your rights is one thing, and you are entitled to do so, but look around you in Europe: airlines (pilots included) need to be realistic as well.

[Clandestino]

Just wait until competition pops up that they cannot buy out or kill off by unfair competition or lobbying the french government for legal obstacles for LCCs.

You mean "Open Skies"? That one can't fail.

I'm baffled - the pilots are on strike and management doesn't sue the union for damages to AF brand?!? Perhaps BA should send some managers over the Channel to show French how things are done.

[luc]

to open a new terminal...

[LSGG]

ouch... this one hurts !

[sud747]

BA Maybe to avoid ground staff or cattering staff to strike.
Or EZ managers to increase punctuality

The later one is really killing me HAHAHA.

[Me Myself]

Me Myself: you forgot to mention that AF is only profitable because they have a de facto monopoly on their home market. Just wait until competition pops up that they cannot buy out or kill off by unfair competition or lobbying the french government for legal obstacles for LCCs.

Easy and Ryanair are slowly chipping away at the AF block. You will be better off if you look further into the future in stead of stubbornly hanging on to all kinds of perks that might jeopardise the future of AF. Standing up for your rights is one thing, and you are entitled to do so, but look around you in Europe: airlines (pilots included) need to be realistic as well.

I take it you're jesting right ?? You must be.
Long haul is were the money is, short haul being there to haul paxs to CDG . Where plane becomes unprofitable, then we'll train them to CDG with bullet trains starting 2010. Don't know what Easy will do about that one, maybe feed our hub ?? That would jolly nice of them.
Retirering at 60..........sxuse me !!! A perk ??? Well then BA, KLM, LH are perky porky allright. Where do I apply ??? Is this the kind of realistic you're refering to ??? I'm all for it. If your kind of realistic is Ryan Air, well then............I pass.
[QUOTE][Perhaps BA should send some managers over the Channel to show French how things are done./QUOTE]
Indeed, that would be rather drole. They'd be sent back riding a rail covered with tar and feathers.
As to the money lost, thanks to Lufthansa who blew the wistle on us after having been part of the deal on fixing freight prices, AF had to pay 500 Mill Euro fine to the US. LH walked out clean. I wonder if there's a name for that ? The strike wouldn't feel my piggy bank in comparison.
Surely you people can better than these lame comments about " French striking ?? Oh Mon Dieu again !! But of course " This is really becoming boring to the point of..........YAWNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnn !! Off to bed !

[Jean-Lill]

AF 4 day strike

Having read all the postings, surely it is EU law that allows everyone within the EU to work until 65 as an option. Employers have to make this possible for every employee-it is the law.

What is the problem with this for AF pilots, Do they really fear the option will become something complusory? I would say that is very unlikely.

I had to retire 3 year ago aged 55 after 35 years with my company, I did not want to retire but as it was before Oct 2006 I had no option. I wish I had the options people have today, I would still be working possibly part time.

Retirement is not all it is cracked up to be, the first couple of months are fine but after that when all the gardening and decorating is finished it is a little boring.

Is it virtually impossible to find another job in France after the age of 50.

[Me Myself]

Retirement is not all it is cracked up to be, the first couple of months are fine but after that when all the gardening and decorating is finished it is a little boring.

Well jean Phil, I am sorry you feel that way. Life's bloody short and you don't get a second ride.
There are hoodle of nice things to do..................apart from gardening / decorating. Indeed, I'd be bored stiff too.
Dunno, why don't you buy yourself a 4 wheel drive and drive around Australia for a year. I assure you your outlook on retirement would change immediatly. In short get out of the house.
When I think about retirement I really get panicky I won't have the time to do all I want to do and I assure you I am not joking, I really mean it.
When I'm on my death bed I certainly won't be thinking " God, I wish I had done one more NRT ".

What is the problem with this for AF pilots, Do they really fear the option will become something complusory? I would say that is very unlikely

Sorry to difer but it is very much likely. We've learned at out peril what the governement word is worth. No more than a huge pile of dung.

[KC135777]

**When I think about retirement I really get panicky I won't have the time to do all I want to do and I assure you I am not joking, I really mean it.
When I'm on my death bed I certainly won't be thinking " God, I wish I had done one more NRT ".**

Bingo.
Very correct. Your sixties are the LAST truly mobile decade for the majority of people. If you work until 65, you've wasted half of it. Downhill in your seventies.
You never see a U-haul (trailer of posessions) behind a funeral limosine.
And never hear anyone on their death bed saying, "boy, I sure wish I had worked more".



KC135777

[Jean-Lill]

You don't have to be retired to enjoy life you know.

I suppose it depends on whether or not one really enjoys their employment. If I hated my job I would have been more than happy to retire as soon as possible, as it happened I liked the job but did not live for it.

The right time to retire in my opinion is when you feel it is the right time, it should not be decided by other people. We are all individuals with diffrent needs, I would have liked a few more years till possibly 60 but had no intention of working till I dropped.

Last week I went to the USA and saw a couple of flight attendants well over 70, I wonder how they would have felt if someone had told them they had wasted their lives because they had not retired in their 50's? I guess they like their jobs and prefer to work rather than retire. They looked very happy, their employer is not forcing them to work, it is their choice.

It matters not what we do in our 60's provided we are happy whether that be working or retired. Again I say it, you do not have to be retired to enjoy life.

[Shaka Zulu]

Jean-Lill, how misinformed you are. A lot of American crewmembers/groundstaff need to work because there is no social backup system or pension to fall back on. Hence they work till they drop. Not because they want to but because they HAVE to

[Jean-Lill]

Shaka Zula

I am not so misinformed about USA state or company pensions schemes as you suggest. I am married into an Amercian family whom I was visiting last week.

My brother in law is a retired pilot and his wife is a current flight attendant. I will phone them this evening for confirmation on whether or not they are excluded from all USA pension schemes due to the nature of their jobs as you suggest they are. I was under the impression my bother in law was on a good pension. He retired aged 60, so I suppose that is all right.

Do you really mean people who work for USA airlines have absolutely no pension rights and have to work until they drop?

I was told USA pensions are quite good, perhaps I was misinformed, I will see this evening.

[rageye]

I am baffled at how ill informed you are. French pilots have their own pension fund called CRPNAC standing for Caissse de retraite du Personnel de l'Aviation Civile, which also includes cabin crew who in their wisdom leave at .........55. In short, french pilots, who retire at 60, subsidize cabin crew early retirement. For years the french governement has tried to merge it with the general pension system; Why ??? Because there's a lot of money in it which they'd like to lay their greedy hands on.
Check your facts.

@Me Myself: You seem to be well informed yourself. Sorry for my ignorance.

1. Can you explain how much pension the average AF pilot (let's say 30 years with the company) gets from CRPNAC and how much he or she gets from the state pension.

2. Is it reasonable to call a 4 day strike against your airline for a measure taken by your government? This strike must have cost AF/KLM tens of millions.

3. The measure taken by the government is (the intention of) raising the maximum age for a class I medical to 65 years, like in the rest of Europe.
Also the Dutch pilots have a maximum age of 65 for a class I medical and all Dutch airlines under the umbrella of AF/KLM still retire at age 56.
So, what's the problem?

[australiancalou]

I do fully agree with Me Myself on this one.
You have to know the way of thinking of these bloody French politicians.
First they call freedom when they say everybody has the right to work after 60.
Then as they control the pilot's retirement funds concentrate their efforts to lead it to bankrupt.
Afterwards it's very easy to offer pilots to join the national management retirement funds with a maximum of 50% of the inital rights.
In France man has to work 41 years to be entilled to 100% national retirement pension.
Under this age there is a drastic reduction of the pension.
So compute: You start as a pilot at 24 + 41 for full rights equal 65 for full pension. Under that you cannot even pay for your food (Doesn't mean caviar...).
You still have the right to stop working at 60 but cannot afford it.
Finally starting from the very politically correct freedom of working you finish with the very really unacceptable freedom of quiting before but with no pension...
As far as I know French is still the official diplomatic language and that means a lot concerning their curving way of thinking if that makes sense.

[Me Myself]

Me Myself: You seem to be well informed yourself. Sorry for my ignorance.

1. Can you explain how much pension the average AF pilot (let's say 30 years with the company) gets from CRPNAC and how much he or she gets from the state pension.

2. Is it reasonable to call a 4 day strike against your airline for a measure taken by your government? This strike must have cost AF/KLM tens of millions.

3. The measure taken by the government is (the intention of) raising the maximum age for a class I medical to 65 years, like in the rest of Europe.
Also the Dutch pilots have a maximum age of 65 for a class I medical and all Dutch airlines under the umbrella of AF/KLM still retire at age 56.
So, what's the problem?

Let's start with question 3

As Australiancalou has explained, what happened is the first stage of a plan which in the mid / long term, will see the pilots fund be merged with the general french pension fund ( Aigirc / Arco ) which by the way has lost 600 millions on the market recently !!! ( yesterday's paper )
This means 41 years at the helm and a shocking pension.
Right now, an AF pilots after 30 years gets about 30 % of his last salary.
A guy I know, retired 744 captain, gets just above 6000 Euros, before income tax after more than 30 years with AF. And I forgot to mention the lump summ equal to 9 months salary since going at 60 was regarded as furlough. You can multiply 15000 by 9, this should be just about right.
Invested at a secure 5% a year, this gives the incridible boost of ........................625 euros a month before tax.
If you think this is lavish then I'll have to reassess my set of values.
All this has been very poorly explained by French ALPA too riddled by inner tensions : The chairman and a few blokes are in favour of 65 when 65 % of the council voted against resuming work last Saturday.

If the Dutch governement is to be trusted ( not for me to say ) the french governement clearly isn't and your point on french diplomacy is right on the money. Like I have said eralier, the french government's word isn't worth more than a huge pile of dung.
They've taken us across the dance floor sending us reassuring letters saying that nothing would be done without proper negociations, german style ( Coming from Sarkozy who loathes the germans, this is really rich ) while some 95 !!! guys belonging to a very dodgy group calling itself PNT65 were lobbying parliament in favour of 65. When you have a look at the list of people who make this dubious groop of PNT 65, you see they are almost all:
- Close to retirement and scared like hell to have to walk the street in civies
- Been married just about a bezillion times
- Are ex military not having logged enough pension time with the civilian system.
There's even one who's lost his licence and only God knows why, has made this his own personal crusade. Things one do to stay away from the wife. Sometime marry the same one only 20 years younger !!!
In this paticular case, this good gentleman was even a French ALPA Vice President; an elected mole if you like.
All this talk about " personal choice " is a farce. Sorry, there are cases where your own little nostril isn't the f.....g center of the world and the law of the majority applies.
The " on a volontary basis " bit would make a wooden horse crack up with laughter. These guys are just doing the governement bidding and they either do not give a rat's ass about the consequences or worse, are not even aware of it.
In the end, all this is going to bite these gentlemen in the toush. None of them will have logged 41 years even when 65 comes, if they're not dead by then. They will have to go with the new general system and I bet ya that you'll find them pledging everlasting loyalty to French ALPA to get out of this mess, just like 60 years ago some turned into fearless and loyal resistants. Seems to run in the genes in this country.
Some have already packed their pension and will of course never be impacted by this twist of fate and will have the satisfaction of having really screwed up a lot of their former colleague's life.
It seems to me that these guys cannot accept that one ages, gets ill...........and dies. Yeap !! That's what happens as unpleasant as the prospect is.
Singing 65 like a mantra isn't going to stop them from one eating the dafodills by the roots one day.

" We " on the other hand, would like to have a life after work, the financial means to be able to do that and not choke right after parking brake has been set. I hate staying inside and don't ever mention decorating or gardening !!! It smells death.

Last, loss of money for the compagny during the strike:

AF lost 500 Mill on a fine it had to pay the US governement after it tried to fix up freight prices with several other airlines, among which Lufthansa.
Somehow our dear friends from across the Rhine started feeling the heat under their toushy and accepted the very honourable offter from the US governement to blow the wistle on us provided they walked away clean. DONE !!
AF didn't trumpet that one I can assure you .............nor did Lufthansa by the way. I still haven't found a name for this. Help ???
I am not about to loose sleep over a mere 100 Mill the strike costed the compagny after such a blunder.

[Jean-Lill]

Be myself,

thank you for the detailed reply about your pension.

I presume you mean 6000 euros AF pension per month= 72000 euros pa + 150,000 euros as a lump sum? On top of this the French state pension.

I wish I got that much after 35 years with my company.

On the subject of French state pension. Currently one has to contribute 40 years to get 100% pension, am I correct in thinking the proposal is to increase the contributing years by just 1 year to 41?

If you think the French state pension is poor you should look at the UK one, they have to contribute 44 years to get approximately £5100 PER ANNUM .Everyone gets the same regardless of what their earnings in employment were.

[Kelly Smunt]

6000 euros is not that much when you compare that to some BA pilots with 30 + years in the company at age 55 retiring on £ 120,000 a year.(18000 euros a month on last years exchange rates)
with a tax free lump sum payment of about 500.000 euros.
Best of luck to you.