Ryanair incident Ciampino.
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I realise we have gone slightly off topic here but the point has already been raised ref. evacuations.
To those of you who quote stock phrases from SOPs that are meant to cover such situations, let me ask you this;
Have you ever been inside a cabin full of screaming and shouting passengers, climbing out of their seats, rushing towards exits, opening lockers, pushing and shoving, ignoring all commands and abandoning common sense in an aircraft that has just come to a shuddering stop with a glowing fireball just outside the window?
In an ideal world, such commands from either the flight deck or the cabin crew will be strictly adhered to and all will go according to plan.
In reality, it will be a whole heap different, it always is!
My own experience is limited to evacuation trilas carried out at Cranfield in the '80s from a Trident cabin but I can assure you that compliance with instructions and an orderly evacuations are not the norm.
To those of you who quote stock phrases from SOPs that are meant to cover such situations, let me ask you this;
Have you ever been inside a cabin full of screaming and shouting passengers, climbing out of their seats, rushing towards exits, opening lockers, pushing and shoving, ignoring all commands and abandoning common sense in an aircraft that has just come to a shuddering stop with a glowing fireball just outside the window?
In an ideal world, such commands from either the flight deck or the cabin crew will be strictly adhered to and all will go according to plan.
In reality, it will be a whole heap different, it always is!
My own experience is limited to evacuation trilas carried out at Cranfield in the '80s from a Trident cabin but I can assure you that compliance with instructions and an orderly evacuations are not the norm.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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I guess that last post was partly addressed at my post so I feel I should point out to you that my advice to you and your company was to solve your post #320
so they do indeed 'hear something'. In your latest scenario, the pax 'bring it on themselves', and may choose to evacuate into running engines. That is indeed a tragedy, but someone needs to collect the Darwin awards each year. Our "stock phrases from SOPs that are meant to cover such situations," are meant to mainly cover the c/crews' concerns, and obviously to HOPE the pax might take notice.
I cannot see how your scenario has any relevance to company 'SOPs' since NOTHING short of locking the exits can prevent such events. The best the c/crew can do is to let the flight deck know immediately, and those of us who are aware of the possibility are in the habit of checking the door warnings during our 'deliberation period' so hopefully we might shut the engines down in time.
It also has not a lot to do with the CIA incident either as you say, except that I should ask in a non-provacative/judgemental way whether Ry's SOPs should have called for a c/crew initiated evac in that situation?
Originally Posted by rubik
hear nothing from the cockpit
I cannot see how your scenario has any relevance to company 'SOPs' since NOTHING short of locking the exits can prevent such events. The best the c/crew can do is to let the flight deck know immediately, and those of us who are aware of the possibility are in the habit of checking the door warnings during our 'deliberation period' so hopefully we might shut the engines down in time.
It also has not a lot to do with the CIA incident either as you say, except that I should ask in a non-provacative/judgemental way whether Ry's SOPs should have called for a c/crew initiated evac in that situation?
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And in reply to above, It was an aircraft from Hahn so should of been tankering?
Suzeman
PS - anyone know whether the aircraft is a write off or can it be repaired?
Last edited by Suzeman; 18th Nov 2008 at 09:08. Reason: PS added
SLF and Crew Viewpoints
All the crew are seated in close proximity to exits -- most SLF are not and are acutely aware that once a fire starts seconds are precious.
Back in 1984, a 737 engine blew up in YYC and the takeoff was rejected. ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 737-275 C-GQPW Calgary International Airport, AB (YYC) Reports at the time indicated that the SLF initiated that evacuation while the flight crew was deliberating. There was something like 90 seconds elapsed from taxiing off the runway when the evacuation began, by which time the windows and fuselage were melting on the fire side of the a/c and smoke was in the cabin.
Back in 1984, a 737 engine blew up in YYC and the takeoff was rejected. ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 737-275 C-GQPW Calgary International Airport, AB (YYC) Reports at the time indicated that the SLF initiated that evacuation while the flight crew was deliberating. There was something like 90 seconds elapsed from taxiing off the runway when the evacuation began, by which time the windows and fuselage were melting on the fire side of the a/c and smoke was in the cabin.
According to RYR chief pilot memo, F/O was pilot flying and go-around was initiated at 200 AGL, as big flock of starling rose up immediately in front of the aircraft. However, 737's go-around performance was no match for starlings' STOL capabilities and multiple (now there's euphemism) birdstrikes occured that caused both engines to fail. Capt took over control and landed the aeroplane while F/O called for equipment.
If official report confirms this version, and personally I'm 90% sure that it will, then this crew deserves every award for extraordinay airmanship that exists.
If official report confirms this version, and personally I'm 90% sure that it will, then this crew deserves every award for extraordinay airmanship that exists.
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If that version of events is true then there is a very important lesson to learn/relearn.
Do not go around if confronted by birds on short final. Take the hits and land.
Do not go around if confronted by birds on short final. Take the hits and land.
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Contradiction
This memo is contradictory to post 128 by Greasecap
According to that testimony, G-A was initiated after initial bird ingestion, and a first initial engine #1 flame out ...
FDR and CVR analysis will tell the truth ...
According to that testimony, G-A was initiated after initial bird ingestion, and a first initial engine #1 flame out ...
Originally Posted by Greasecap
at 200 ft on short final at (100752LT nov) CIO a multple bird hit occurred on a RYR flight from Frankfurt Hahn to Rome Ciampino.
More than 200 birdhits were counted (afterwards)
Engine nr 1 stopped (no power)
TOGA initated by PF, captain took over and after (0,020sec) engine nr 2 stopped
Put him down on the runway (a bit hard as you can see)
More than 200 birdhits were counted (afterwards)
Engine nr 1 stopped (no power)
TOGA initated by PF, captain took over and after (0,020sec) engine nr 2 stopped
Put him down on the runway (a bit hard as you can see)
then the birdstrike occured causing No1lose almost all power , G/A initiated by PF (FO) , then a second multiple strike into that engine
Are you saying that the bolded "that" above refers to No1 engine or a different engine?
Also I would have thought that for starlings only a single ball flock would be present in the vincinity and thus all strikes would have occurred in only a few seconds. However engine response symptoms to the crew may have taken longer to show up.
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Also I would have thought that for starlings only a single ball flock would be present in the vincinity and thus all strikes would have occurred in only a few seconds.
YouTube has quite a few items on starlings in Rome. (and in the UK )
YouTube - Birds Over Rome
gives an indication of the vast numbers and the speed they at which they move en mass.
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Many years ago I spent hours watching the MILLIONS
of starlings that roosted in the trees near the main
bus station in Rome.
Fantastic free entertainment. Not so good for aircraft
engines though.
of starlings that roosted in the trees near the main
bus station in Rome.
Fantastic free entertainment. Not so good for aircraft
engines though.
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Starlings hey?
Thanks for the youtube link, I thought this was the most scary:
YouTube - Mesmerizing Starlings - Rome
Imagine that coming at you - no don't, it's scary..
YouTube - Mesmerizing Starlings - Rome
Imagine that coming at you - no don't, it's scary..
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Real Alfred Hitchcock stuff. Can't imagine many bird control measures that could handle that, you probably just encourage them to move out to 2 or 3 miles so they screw your engines @ 600-900ft ( not much of a help 
)
If the birds were below them initially when making the approach I would imagine they would tend to visually blend with the ground, only becoming obvious as they climbed and were highlighted against the sky. By then, as it appears, avoiding action by initiating a Go-around is probably too late. The bird -droppings problem these little blighters cause pales into insignificance compared to the potential risk to aircraft operations, as proven conclusively in CIA. A slightly bent airframe & some new underwear was a " luck of the Irish" outcome indeed.
)If the birds were below them initially when making the approach I would imagine they would tend to visually blend with the ground, only becoming obvious as they climbed and were highlighted against the sky. By then, as it appears, avoiding action by initiating a Go-around is probably too late. The bird -droppings problem these little blighters cause pales into insignificance compared to the potential risk to aircraft operations, as proven conclusively in CIA. A slightly bent airframe & some new underwear was a " luck of the Irish" outcome indeed.
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Amazing...
I knew that they had caused a crash in Boston for a Lockheed L188 Electra II but I didn't know just how many of them there could be in a flock until I saw the video. Ingesting that many birds at once must really do some damage.
I guess they will have to either get rid of the trees or the birds at Ciampino, then. Perhaps they can put nets over the trees, as they do with cherry trees.
I guess they will have to either get rid of the trees or the birds at Ciampino, then. Perhaps they can put nets over the trees, as they do with cherry trees.
Bird flocks that cause really serious problems to multiple engines are generally no surprise after the fact. The only surprise is to the crew.
Most bird sightings are everyday mother nature to those running airfields. The challenge is to recognize when the environmental combinations are just right for massive flocks directly in the path of a plane.
Forget about simple sounding cover all solutions like dogs, falcons, guns and canons and learn the biological patterns and behaviours that produce these massive flock encounters. For the stuff that's on the airfield (that's where the real safety hazard is) use a little traffic control per active runway. One dedicated person for the one or two hours when the environmental combinations are right is all it should take.
Most bird sightings are everyday mother nature to those running airfields. The challenge is to recognize when the environmental combinations are just right for massive flocks directly in the path of a plane.
Forget about simple sounding cover all solutions like dogs, falcons, guns and canons and learn the biological patterns and behaviours that produce these massive flock encounters. For the stuff that's on the airfield (that's where the real safety hazard is) use a little traffic control per active runway. One dedicated person for the one or two hours when the environmental combinations are right is all it should take.
Forget about simple sounding cover all solutions like dogs, falcons, guns and canons and learn the biological patterns and behaviours that produce these massive flock encounters.
Starlings, that what produce these massive flocks, its what they do, its how they live, its a species thing with them.
Sturnus Vulgaris
Habitat :
Almost Anywhere breeds very commonly in or close to cultivated country, especially near human habitation.
Very ready to live with man
Needs holes to nest in, trees,walls, roofs (under tiles)
Open Ground to feed on.
Flies in tight flocks sometimes thousands of birds in association with roosts in reeds and city centres, particularly after the breeding season.
For CIA and its immediate and general vicinity you can tick, all the above habitat boxes.
For the stuff that's on the airfield (that's where the real safety hazard is) use a little traffic control per active runway. One dedicated person for the one or two hours when the environmental combinations are right is all it should take
I think I know what you're saying, note CIA only has the one runway though approached over the city as per FR4102, or the more 'interesting' one, as I understand it, over the hill. As far as controlling Starlings its almost impossible due to their swarm/flock characteristics. If I see birds whilst an aircraft is on approach I advise the crew of them, their position and an estimate of species/flock size, the crew then has an early heads up. Not seen a Starling swarm yet, but even before this event I would have considered suggesting a go-round if a large pack of Starlings were messing about on finals.
For the stuff that's on the airfield (that's where the real safety hazard is)
I did a study a few years back, the above statement is a bit 'simplistic' no offence intended. The 'hits' for arriving aircraft were usually reported in the last mile between 300-100ft if I recall correctly, (outside aerodrome boundary), and on departure in the first 500ft, normally within the airfield boundary, both types of 'strike' regardless of runway length.
A big risk time is dusk, so check the sunrise sunset for your DEP/ARR time if the airfield brief warns of birds. Not many briefs will advise species but if one says Starlings, be on your guard. Note from this clip, (watch it until they show the ground), how the quickly the vertical dimension of the swarm changes
YouTube - Starlings Flocking
Starlings, that what produce these massive flocks, its what they do, its how they live, its a species thing with them.
Sturnus Vulgaris
Habitat :
Almost Anywhere breeds very commonly in or close to cultivated country, especially near human habitation.
Very ready to live with man
Needs holes to nest in, trees,walls, roofs (under tiles)
Open Ground to feed on.
Flies in tight flocks sometimes thousands of birds in association with roosts in reeds and city centres, particularly after the breeding season.
For CIA and its immediate and general vicinity you can tick, all the above habitat boxes.
For the stuff that's on the airfield (that's where the real safety hazard is) use a little traffic control per active runway. One dedicated person for the one or two hours when the environmental combinations are right is all it should take
I think I know what you're saying, note CIA only has the one runway though approached over the city as per FR4102, or the more 'interesting' one, as I understand it, over the hill. As far as controlling Starlings its almost impossible due to their swarm/flock characteristics. If I see birds whilst an aircraft is on approach I advise the crew of them, their position and an estimate of species/flock size, the crew then has an early heads up. Not seen a Starling swarm yet, but even before this event I would have considered suggesting a go-round if a large pack of Starlings were messing about on finals.
For the stuff that's on the airfield (that's where the real safety hazard is)
I did a study a few years back, the above statement is a bit 'simplistic' no offence intended. The 'hits' for arriving aircraft were usually reported in the last mile between 300-100ft if I recall correctly, (outside aerodrome boundary), and on departure in the first 500ft, normally within the airfield boundary, both types of 'strike' regardless of runway length.
A big risk time is dusk, so check the sunrise sunset for your DEP/ARR time if the airfield brief warns of birds. Not many briefs will advise species but if one says Starlings, be on your guard. Note from this clip, (watch it until they show the ground), how the quickly the vertical dimension of the swarm changes
YouTube - Starlings Flocking