Ryanair incident Ciampino.
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In my much maligned Post #163 I surmised, not unreasonably I thought, that the gear was in the position it was due to the fact that the pilot might well have initiated the G/A and then found himself with a loss of thrust on the remaining engine, hence the gear selected down in a hurry and the aircraft plonked on the runway without having 3 Green lights.
Having seen the recent photos of the damage to the rear fuselage then I would change my theory to both engines failed within moments of each other, although perhaps still with time enough for the G/A to be initiated, and then the aircraft hit the runway with a fairly low, almost stalling speed and so damaged the rear fuselage and gear on impact. The loss of effective braking with the gear partially collapsed (or perhaps not fully extended), along with no reverse thrust, accounts for the amount of runway used to stop the aircraft. The engine pod would provide almost no friction at all. Light touch with the right brake to keep it straight, well done that man, or woman.
I wonder when the pilots will be paraded for all to gawp at, as per Big Airways?
Having seen the recent photos of the damage to the rear fuselage then I would change my theory to both engines failed within moments of each other, although perhaps still with time enough for the G/A to be initiated, and then the aircraft hit the runway with a fairly low, almost stalling speed and so damaged the rear fuselage and gear on impact. The loss of effective braking with the gear partially collapsed (or perhaps not fully extended), along with no reverse thrust, accounts for the amount of runway used to stop the aircraft. The engine pod would provide almost no friction at all. Light touch with the right brake to keep it straight, well done that man, or woman.
I wonder when the pilots will be paraded for all to gawp at, as per Big Airways?
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Pace yourselves...
You lot have about a year to go until the official report is released so take it easy with the theories about what went on there at Ciampino. Where the gear lever was, what sort of birdies were involved, what the body attitude at touchdown/impact was to achieve the extensive modifications to the rear fuselage, is it a good idea to give a really massive heave when heading earthwards at what must have been a really big ROD or should one achieve a de-rotation around the CG just then, did the PF have his eyes open or closed at impact, what that (* - non-pertinent word) really was on the CVR tape right then, how many pounds of Bondo it might take MOL to get that Boeing back to "good as new"...
Don't crank all the crack-brained theories out at once or we will run out before it's time for the anti-climax, the report.
It looks as if this is some sort of "Make the right guess and win a prize" contest here. Who does the judging and can any number play?
Don't crank all the crack-brained theories out at once or we will run out before it's time for the anti-climax, the report.
It looks as if this is some sort of "Make the right guess and win a prize" contest here. Who does the judging and can any number play?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Well, we have almost 300 posts, and SOMEONE will be asking for a 'summary' soon, so, craving Chuks indulgence, here is the definitive:
It was a Ryanair 737-800 FRA-CIA
On finals they killed some birds
It is said they followed Ryanair's SOPs
The birds made them lose engine power
They made it to the runway
They banged the back end
They knackered the left main gear
They didn't, however, kill any people
The crew did a fine job.
That should be enough! Anyone disagree?
It was a Ryanair 737-800 FRA-CIA
On finals they killed some birds
It is said they followed Ryanair's SOPs
The birds made them lose engine power
They made it to the runway
They banged the back end
They knackered the left main gear
They didn't, however, kill any people
The crew did a fine job.
That should be enough! Anyone disagree?
Having studied the buggers a little I provide the following emperical comments:
...
In the air they go sideways in a peeling action and thus fall away both vertically and horrizontally.
...
In the air they go sideways in a peeling action and thus fall away both vertically and horrizontally.
I see that behavior when I inadvertently sneak up on them from behind and a bit below. They will pull in a wing and go through a tumble.
Sometimes when you clump into a thermal you get the odd dirty look
The avian brain has evolved to deal with other occupants of nearby airspace at similar airspeeds --airliner approach speeds are beyond the design specs.
As MOL probably put it 'bejas*s there boys, but we was lucky we didn't write one off....luck of the Irish and all that.'
Hopefully it was an example of Lee Trevino's: 'the more I practice the luckier I get!'.
Hopefully it was an example of Lee Trevino's: 'the more I practice the luckier I get!'.
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Well done to the Flight and Cabin Crew.
Amazing job guys !!!!
To Leo Hairy Camel, this is your chance at free publicity and letting your crews know you care(a little).....
if the crew of this are reading this thread you obviously saved a 172 peoples lives,
NO MATTER WHAT THE SOP SAYS OR ANYONE ELSE.
possibly no hull loss either?
Amazing job guys !!!!
To Leo Hairy Camel, this is your chance at free publicity and letting your crews know you care(a little).....
if the crew of this are reading this thread you obviously saved a 172 peoples lives,
NO MATTER WHAT THE SOP SAYS OR ANYONE ELSE.
possibly no hull loss either?
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As per Big Air etc
BA038 an international flag carrier practically crash landed in Willie Walsh’s boardroom. It blocked a major airport disrupted thousands of passengers ,news of which was carried live on Sky and CNN so what else could WW do but hand out medals.
You can use PR to your advantage when it suits you and on this occasion MOL just doesn’t need that type of PR and possible egg on his face.
If after a full investigation has been completed it is found that full and correct procedures were followed then I have no doubt they will receive recognition many here may feel they deserve until then the only ones getting rosettes are Angus and Attrition.
You can use PR to your advantage when it suits you and on this occasion MOL just doesn’t need that type of PR and possible egg on his face.
If after a full investigation has been completed it is found that full and correct procedures were followed then I have no doubt they will receive recognition many here may feel they deserve until then the only ones getting rosettes are Angus and Attrition.
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MOL and Rome birdstrike incident
During the course of an interview on an Irish national radio station (Today FM) on Wednesday morning the presenter Ray D'Darcy briefly referred to the "Rome incident" and Michael O'Leary responded by saying the crew did a tremendous job.
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From the little info. we have so far I'd say the crew did their company and passengers proud.
One thing that puzzle's me though is the pictures appear to show little damage to the fan blades - which I guess is what you would expect from a multiple Starling strike but then why the double failure ?.......was it simply too much meat going down the compressor ?
One thing that puzzle's me though is the pictures appear to show little damage to the fan blades - which I guess is what you would expect from a multiple Starling strike but then why the double failure ?.......was it simply too much meat going down the compressor ?
Last edited by puddle-jumper2; 14th Nov 2008 at 10:56.
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Bird habits...
The little ones seem to be good as individuals at swerving. In years of flying light aircraft I think I tagged one swallow when I would usually see about a dozen of those mad little guys zooming around on the final approach course at DNMM, Lagos during the winter months. You would see one about 3 metres in front of the windscreen do a sudden 90° banked turn and just... disappear. Amazing flyers. Every so often there would be a tiny impact and you would find a little smear but they are so small that they don't do any harm to an airplane.
Some other small breeds seem to travel in swarms, not being solo-flying insectivores, when it's sometimes a case of clobbering a few, not a problem in a prop plane. Tall grass is something to avoid if you have a choice, since that's a bird magnet, offering cover and food.
Spring and fall seem to be the worst, because of swarms of migratory birds found at those times.
When you get up to the vulture class then it's a very good idea not to fly under them since they do seem to fold their wings and drop onto you. You see them just fold up and come down like a big, black, wet paper bag. Luckily they are big enough to spot, usually, as they just fly their thermalling spirals waiting to spot something that looks like lunch.
Brown kites and other raptors can be aggressive, even seeking out your airplane to chase your big bird away from their patch of sky by diving onto you if they can get above you.
When you are faced with a take-off with raptors around it's useful to remember that they almost always will cliimb into wind. The problem can be thinking that a bird on the downwind side of the runway facing away from the runway will clear the area the way he's headed. No, they lift off and then make an immediate turn back across the centreline, right into your path.
The usual bird control measure I knew was regular mowing of the tall grass. Those bird-scaring devices didn't seem to bother African birds very much so that they didn't seem to be much use.
If Ciampino has trees then they would be an obvious place to find bird swarms at this time of year. Those splat marks seen in the photos look big for starlings but they would be the usual suspects, being very gregarious. I am sure the biologists will tell us what species was involved there.
If you have to operate to a field with birds there really isn't much you can do about the hazards posed, is there? By the time you spot a swarm headed across your path there isn't a lot you can do to avoid them.
Some other small breeds seem to travel in swarms, not being solo-flying insectivores, when it's sometimes a case of clobbering a few, not a problem in a prop plane. Tall grass is something to avoid if you have a choice, since that's a bird magnet, offering cover and food.
Spring and fall seem to be the worst, because of swarms of migratory birds found at those times.
When you get up to the vulture class then it's a very good idea not to fly under them since they do seem to fold their wings and drop onto you. You see them just fold up and come down like a big, black, wet paper bag. Luckily they are big enough to spot, usually, as they just fly their thermalling spirals waiting to spot something that looks like lunch.
Brown kites and other raptors can be aggressive, even seeking out your airplane to chase your big bird away from their patch of sky by diving onto you if they can get above you.
When you are faced with a take-off with raptors around it's useful to remember that they almost always will cliimb into wind. The problem can be thinking that a bird on the downwind side of the runway facing away from the runway will clear the area the way he's headed. No, they lift off and then make an immediate turn back across the centreline, right into your path.
The usual bird control measure I knew was regular mowing of the tall grass. Those bird-scaring devices didn't seem to bother African birds very much so that they didn't seem to be much use.
If Ciampino has trees then they would be an obvious place to find bird swarms at this time of year. Those splat marks seen in the photos look big for starlings but they would be the usual suspects, being very gregarious. I am sure the biologists will tell us what species was involved there.
If you have to operate to a field with birds there really isn't much you can do about the hazards posed, is there? By the time you spot a swarm headed across your path there isn't a lot you can do to avoid them.
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You will not necessarily see fan blade damage after a bird strike, single or multiple. I have had a single bird go through an engine on the take off roll and multiple birds go through an engine on landing. Both events resulted in a loss of thrust, but after a boroscope and engine run both engines were declared fit for service.
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Yeah, it depends...
I had a PW305B, a small fan engine, inhale a brown kite and not even cough. There was a horrible pong of roast kite in the cabin as kite residue was run through the air-cycle machine but that was all. There were a few feathers wrapped around some of the stators behind the fan and some traces on the fan blades but these modern titanium, single-crystal fan blades are tough! I guess our luck there was that Mr Kite mostly went down the bypass duct and not into the core.
On the other hand, I remember several incidents at Lagos of big fan engines being ruined by bird ingestion, luckily without any accidents resulting.
We will have to wait for the report but I find it surprising that small birds can cause a big fan engine to quit. Was that a known problem before this accident?
Just to put things in perspective, if Ciampino has bird strikes, well, Port Harcourt, Nigeria had an incident where an Air France A-330 had multiple cow strikes, when they were very, very lucky not to have lost the aircraft.
On the other hand, I remember several incidents at Lagos of big fan engines being ruined by bird ingestion, luckily without any accidents resulting.
We will have to wait for the report but I find it surprising that small birds can cause a big fan engine to quit. Was that a known problem before this accident?
Just to put things in perspective, if Ciampino has bird strikes, well, Port Harcourt, Nigeria had an incident where an Air France A-330 had multiple cow strikes, when they were very, very lucky not to have lost the aircraft.
Last edited by chuks; 14th Nov 2008 at 10:29.
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Gatbusdriver,
That's my point. I'm aware that you don't necessarily see damage to the fan blades and that bird strikes can result in the engine coughing - and continuing to run all be it with poss. reduced thrust and compressor stall.
My point is that the ones I have seen that result in the engine completely stopping have been because of major damage to the fan blades/compressor usually caused by larger bird's.
The fact that they both failed within seconds of the bird strikes with minimal fan blade damage is a rare event.
Once again it seems to point to the compressor being swamped.
That's my point. I'm aware that you don't necessarily see damage to the fan blades and that bird strikes can result in the engine coughing - and continuing to run all be it with poss. reduced thrust and compressor stall.
My point is that the ones I have seen that result in the engine completely stopping have been because of major damage to the fan blades/compressor usually caused by larger bird's.
The fact that they both failed within seconds of the bird strikes with minimal fan blade damage is a rare event.
Once again it seems to point to the compressor being swamped.
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Update on Aviation Herald.
Article: The Aviation Herald
Witness Statement added: -
"One of the passengers estimated the height at the time of impact with the birds at around 50 feet using other aircraft visible from his window. The airplane touched down, got back into the air and touched down again. After the airplane came to a stand still, it took a short while until fire engines arrived and started to foam the aircraft. Passengers were advised by cabin crew to remain in their seats, the left main landing gear was still intact. Then the evacuation was initiated, the slides deployed, when the airplane suddenly rolled to the left and the left main gear strut came through the wing."
If the above is true, what is the explanation for te severe scraping on the underside of the plane as seen in some previous pictures ?
Witness Statement added: -
"One of the passengers estimated the height at the time of impact with the birds at around 50 feet using other aircraft visible from his window. The airplane touched down, got back into the air and touched down again. After the airplane came to a stand still, it took a short while until fire engines arrived and started to foam the aircraft. Passengers were advised by cabin crew to remain in their seats, the left main landing gear was still intact. Then the evacuation was initiated, the slides deployed, when the airplane suddenly rolled to the left and the left main gear strut came through the wing."
If the above is true, what is the explanation for te severe scraping on the underside of the plane as seen in some previous pictures ?
What you describe sounds like temporary thrust loss due to engine surge/stall because of the bird debris disturbing the airflow. The fact that your engines proved to be undamaged supports this- however this does not explain why the crew were compelled to abort a go-around. I have had four incidents of bird ingestion and in each case there was N1 fan blade damage and/or distortion but the engines continued to run albeit with a loss of thrust and very high VIB indications. With the newer high bypass engines it appears that debris seems less often to affect the high pressure compressor - instead it seems to go through the bypass duct.
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That makes sense in that the relatively heavy bird remains must be centrifuged towards the outside as they are caught up in the rotating fan, tending go into the bypass duct. Part of that is probably just the happenstance of where they hit on the fan.