Qantas emergency landing
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Rob makes a very important point. From my PPL **UNTRAINED** eye, this looks like it will be a very interesting case. The field they landed in is a disused airbase and a long way from anywhere. Was the absolute nearest place able to handle the '330 I suspect. Can any QF drivers comment on the mayday combined with the choice of field - just wondering (not saying!) if the big cheese up front suspected loss of control surface and/or other serious failures (was this uncommanded pitch/yaw??) or if (as others have suggested) the call was made based on a quick assessment of injuries etc. Either way, one more question from me for those that know (any QF techies?): What sort of gear will QF need to haul up there in order to carry out basic analysis of the state of the plane before it can be ferried? What typically would this involve and what challenges are they going to face given where she is parked? Thanks for indulging me. Good luck to all those injured and to the tech crew who will no doubt be in for hours of investigation and analysis of their every move and well done to said crew as well as CC for what passengers are all saying was a job well done.
Last edited by OliV2; 7th Oct 2008 at 21:45. Reason: Font...wierd.
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IIRC, the Qantas briefing uses the words "It is a Qantas requirement ..." The emphasis reflects that in the video soundtrack.
Also, I've never understood why the food carts aren't make of something lighter, like carbon fibre or some kind of hard wearing plastic, with much rounder edges (this would also help prevent the guillotine effect as the carts are being pushed down the aisles and you happen to have an arm hanging over the armrest or a leg dangling in the aisle).
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More testimonies
Some passengers describing their "ordeal" here.
One mentions two consecutive "air pockets" and that the overhead compartments "came down".
One mentions two consecutive "air pockets" and that the overhead compartments "came down".
short flights long nights
Geoff Thomas is speaking on Australian radio now saying that he has a source inside Qantas, that told him it was a "computer malfunction"
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rob interestingly wrote:"Interesting to consider the potential effects of a multiple referencing failure rather than CAT."
If the incident is other than an unfortunate but ordinary CAT:
There is a friend of my, out there (that probably read this) that survived an ordeal in its A 320 approaching the old Kaitak Airport in Hong kong during a typhoon. After that he left the airline that was operating the flight. Rumors tells that Airbus/Airline made a deal with him to keep the incident classify. this Is a rumor that find in this blog its logical place to be.
However as you know in the Fligh By failures (FCOM 1 1.27.30 P1) that among the 3 levels of reconfiguration the third is the Mechanical. he the crew experience in the SIM to fly with the two only mechanics links available.
Re damages:
Is time to secure (simply) at the floor the carts. a simple rail at the floor where to engage a simple safety cable to limit the cart vertical travel any time.
simple and inexpensive and actually a way to secure even the crew (with a belt) to the cart. the only fying material to the cealing would be the beverages on the top and stupid passengers (eventually).
If the incident is other than an unfortunate but ordinary CAT:
There is a friend of my, out there (that probably read this) that survived an ordeal in its A 320 approaching the old Kaitak Airport in Hong kong during a typhoon. After that he left the airline that was operating the flight. Rumors tells that Airbus/Airline made a deal with him to keep the incident classify. this Is a rumor that find in this blog its logical place to be.
However as you know in the Fligh By failures (FCOM 1 1.27.30 P1) that among the 3 levels of reconfiguration the third is the Mechanical. he the crew experience in the SIM to fly with the two only mechanics links available.
Re damages:
Is time to secure (simply) at the floor the carts. a simple rail at the floor where to engage a simple safety cable to limit the cart vertical travel any time.
simple and inexpensive and actually a way to secure even the crew (with a belt) to the cart. the only fying material to the cealing would be the beverages on the top and stupid passengers (eventually).
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A320 Hk
Zagorfly says ...
I'm pretty sure I witnessed this from the ground. It was a Dragonair A320 and made 3 approaches to the seaward end of the Kai Tak runway. Each time, below about 500 feet on approach the plane was snap rolling about 45 degrees each way - same thing happened each time he tried to land - on the last occurrence he managed to get it on the ground with several burst tyres, stopped on runway and immediately evacuated passengers. I heard rumours at the time that it was caused by software problems but was never able to find out much about it. Anyone any further information? - it was frightening even to watch.
an ordeal in its A 320 approaching the old Kaitak Airport in Hong kong during a typhoon
Securing Carts
A rail would likely create a tripping hazard.
My suggestion is for flanges projecting from the bottom of the cart that would catch on the lower part of the seats if the cart attempts take off. You would need a foot pedal to retract or deploy the flanges when getting it in and out of stowage.
If the cart stayed reasonably put, at least the CC would have a chance to hold on.
I suspect the worst injuries happen when the cart comes back down.
My suggestion is for flanges projecting from the bottom of the cart that would catch on the lower part of the seats if the cart attempts take off. You would need a foot pedal to retract or deploy the flanges when getting it in and out of stowage.
If the cart stayed reasonably put, at least the CC would have a chance to hold on.
I suspect the worst injuries happen when the cart comes back down.
Paxing All Over The World
One mentions two consecutive "air pockets" and that the overhead compartments "came down".
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Where did you get "disused airbase" from??
Learmonth airport is used on a regular basis by the RAAF and international forces during exercises and it's allso used every day by Skywest and Qantaslink. They also fly out to Christmas Island from Learmonth. This is the airfield that services Exmouth for it's tourism and is the Southern Hemisphere landing field for the space shuttle in the event it has to land "Down Under"
So I have no idea where you get "disused airfield" from.
And I know this because I used to fly into Learmonth about twice a week.
Learmonth airport is used on a regular basis by the RAAF and international forces during exercises and it's allso used every day by Skywest and Qantaslink. They also fly out to Christmas Island from Learmonth. This is the airfield that services Exmouth for it's tourism and is the Southern Hemisphere landing field for the space shuttle in the event it has to land "Down Under"
So I have no idea where you get "disused airfield" from.
And I know this because I used to fly into Learmonth about twice a week.
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I have experienced tha bad side of the "coffin corner" as a passenger on an Focker-100 over 10 years ago. Flying as high as we could to avoid building storms. Nasty bending jet stream (or possibly convective drafts) evidently caused a stall and enormormous uncontolled "plunge" yet with little or no change to pitch and roll... just a straight-down flat free fall. The extreme pos/neg g-forces through the two falls and subsequent recoveries were an terrifying experience. Fortunately most people had seatbelts on but those who did not were part of the ceiling. And yes, people flying around in the cabin injure the people who are properly belted in their seats... as do food carts and laptop PCs. Experience from reading the posts and news accounts on the 330 incident sounds familiar.
Had read that the 787 will have LIDAR that will help with CAT. Doppler is obviously no help without any particles to reflect in clear air, but I thought NASA was working on better CAT detection and the 787 would have some advances in this (of course, the same radar could be put in other aircraft so guess maybe that was just marketing hype).
Anyway, hope people recover and have no doubt that the QF (FD and CC) did a good job. Shame Qantas is getting bagged for this in the media. If it turns out to purely be a CAT-induced upset then that has nothing to do with the airline quality.
However... no doubt the media experts will conclude that obviously putting 300+ people in an A320 may cause some weight and balance issues!!!
Had read that the 787 will have LIDAR that will help with CAT. Doppler is obviously no help without any particles to reflect in clear air, but I thought NASA was working on better CAT detection and the 787 would have some advances in this (of course, the same radar could be put in other aircraft so guess maybe that was just marketing hype).
Anyway, hope people recover and have no doubt that the QF (FD and CC) did a good job. Shame Qantas is getting bagged for this in the media. If it turns out to purely be a CAT-induced upset then that has nothing to do with the airline quality.
However... no doubt the media experts will conclude that obviously putting 300+ people in an A320 may cause some weight and balance issues!!!
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oliv2
what they haul up there depends on the damage if any to the airframe or computers that are suspect, if any.
depending on the g's inflicted will determine the special inspections req'd again ,if any.
cabin repairs etc can wait.
interesting if it was multiple sequencing failures.why it would occur and why then drive the aircraft down violently is quite worrying if so.
airbus tech has considerable redundancy available depending on the control surface.
command / monitor inside each and from other computers.
A failed computer is one thing and not unusual, several is quite unusual and uncommanded violent input would be rarer still surely.
If I hadnt seen an oxy bottle blow up rip open an airframe bounce around the cabin and then exit thru the same holes in the floor and airframe I'd say impossible.But impossible happens.
I discount nothing now.
depending on the g's inflicted will determine the special inspections req'd again ,if any.
cabin repairs etc can wait.
interesting if it was multiple sequencing failures.why it would occur and why then drive the aircraft down violently is quite worrying if so.
airbus tech has considerable redundancy available depending on the control surface.
command / monitor inside each and from other computers.
A failed computer is one thing and not unusual, several is quite unusual and uncommanded violent input would be rarer still surely.
If I hadnt seen an oxy bottle blow up rip open an airframe bounce around the cabin and then exit thru the same holes in the floor and airframe I'd say impossible.But impossible happens.
I discount nothing now.
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Was referencing the fact that it was a ex-airforce base dating back to WWII, but accept that I am incorrect in calling it disused - apologies and thanks for the correction.
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anecdotally some friends have flown over that area several times in the last week or 2.
on 2 occasions they reported bad turbulence, ie saying their prayers every one strapped down services halted per procedures.
They are slf and not seasoned flt veterans but still it does indicate that maybe the jetstream in that area is creating some issues.
on 2 occasions they reported bad turbulence, ie saying their prayers every one strapped down services halted per procedures.
They are slf and not seasoned flt veterans but still it does indicate that maybe the jetstream in that area is creating some issues.
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Latest from Sydney Morning Herald reporting systems irregularity.
Qantas plunge: computer 'irregularity' - Travel - smh.com.au
Qantas plunge: computer 'irregularity' - Travel - smh.com.au
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Latest ABC (Aus) report
Latest on the ATSB initial statement, see it here Computer glitch may be behind Qantas incident: ATSB - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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Elevator control problem caused the aircraft to dive
Air safety investigators say there was an "irregularity" in the onboard computer equipment of a Qantas plane involved in a mid-air incident over Western Australia.
A second team of investigators was travelling to Learmonth, in the state's north, to find the cause of the incident which injured about 20 passengers and crew on board flight QF72 travelling from Singapore to Perth.
The pilots sent a mayday call shortly before making an emergency landing at the regional airstrip, 40km from Exmouth on WA's Gascoyne coast.
Qantas on Wednesday said the cause of the "sudden change in altitude" was speculation.
Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) director of aviation safety investigation Julian Walsh said the plane was travelling at 37,000 feet when the incident happened.
"The pilots received electronic centralised aircraft monitoring messages in the cockpit relating to some irregularity with the aircraft's elevator control system," he told reporters in Canberra on Wednesday.
The aircraft then climbed about 300 feet before "abruptly" pitching nose down.
Passengers arriving in Perth on Tuesday night told of their horror as the drop threw them and their personal belongings across the plane.
Jim Ford, of Perth, said he thought he was about to die as he watched people being thrown around the cabin.
"It was horrendous, absolutely gruesome, terrible, the worst experience of my life," he said.
Ben Cave, of Perth, said for a few seconds he had feared for his life and "saw a bit of a flash before me".
"We had a major fall and another fall shortly after.
"I hit the ceiling but I was OK, I only got a few bruises and strains. I just remember seeing that the plane was a mess."
Henry and Doreen Bishop, of Oxford, England, said it was one of the worst experiences of their lives.
"People were screaming but they cut off any panic that might have started...", Mr Bishop said.
"I put it down to life. The titanic hit an iceberg, we hit an air pocket."
A spokesman for Perth's Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital said one of the 20 passengers it treated on Tuesday night was in a serious but stable condition. Eight people were under observation and 11 other patients were discharged, he said. Injuries included fractures, lacerations and suspected spinal injuries.
WA Police Commissioner Karl O'Callaghan was forced to activate the state crisis centre because of the number of injuries.
"It seems that there might have been some sort of systems failure, we're not sure yet, we're still waiting for further information," Dr O'Callaghan told ABC Radio.
The flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder have been quarantined and sent to Canberra for testing.
Two ATSB investigators were immediately flown to WA, while another five were on their way to the site where the plane landed to interview passengers and crew, Mr Walsh said.
An officer from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority has joined the team, as well as an investigator from the Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses (BEA), which is the French counterpart to the ATSB.
The BEA officer has been assigned to the investigation because the plane was manufactured in France.
An investigator from Airbus is also travelling to Australia and will also assist the investigations.
"It is obviously very early in the investigation and too soon to draw any conclusions as to the specific cause of the accident," Mr Walsh said.
The ATSB investigation would explore all aspects of the aircraft's operation, including the flight's black boxes, on-board computer systems, air traffic control and radar warnings and weather conditions, he said.
"The ATSB will also be conducting a range of interviews with the pilots and cabin crew and will also speak with passengers to examine the cabin safety aspects."
The investigation was likely to take some months but the ATSB would release a preliminary report within 30 days, Mr Walsh said.
It was unclear how far in altitude the aircraft dropped during the incident.
The Australian and International Pilots' Association on Wednesday said turbulence was not uncommon on that flight path.
Captain Ian Woods said most modern passenger planes were built to cope with changes in altitude.
"When you cross those jet streams as you do from Singapore to Perth ... you run across the transition boundary," Capt Woods, also a Qantas pilot, told ABC Radio.
"It's at that point where you're crossing from smooth air to fast-flowing air, that there can be quite unexpected and significant turbulence."
This could cause a "jet upset", Capt Woods said.
"So if you're unfortunate enough to run into that, and it sounds like that's what's happened, then certainly it's unexpected and you can get outcomes like this."
Capt Woods said turbulence was nothing pilots "can't cope with".
"Aeroplanes have been ... refined over the years and if we go back to the 50s, then these kinds of events were worse than they are now."
The incident is another blow to Qantas which is still dealing with several problems this year including an exploding oxygen bottle which punched a huge hole in the side of a Qantas Boeing 747-400, forcing an emergency landing in Manila.
A Qantas Boeing 737-800 returned to Adelaide after a landing gear door failed to retract, and a Manila-bound Boeing 767 was turned back to Sydney after developing a hydraulic fluid leak.
Passengers tell of horror aboard QF72 - Yahoo!7 News
A second team of investigators was travelling to Learmonth, in the state's north, to find the cause of the incident which injured about 20 passengers and crew on board flight QF72 travelling from Singapore to Perth.
The pilots sent a mayday call shortly before making an emergency landing at the regional airstrip, 40km from Exmouth on WA's Gascoyne coast.
Qantas on Wednesday said the cause of the "sudden change in altitude" was speculation.
Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) director of aviation safety investigation Julian Walsh said the plane was travelling at 37,000 feet when the incident happened.
"The pilots received electronic centralised aircraft monitoring messages in the cockpit relating to some irregularity with the aircraft's elevator control system," he told reporters in Canberra on Wednesday.
The aircraft then climbed about 300 feet before "abruptly" pitching nose down.
Passengers arriving in Perth on Tuesday night told of their horror as the drop threw them and their personal belongings across the plane.
Jim Ford, of Perth, said he thought he was about to die as he watched people being thrown around the cabin.
"It was horrendous, absolutely gruesome, terrible, the worst experience of my life," he said.
Ben Cave, of Perth, said for a few seconds he had feared for his life and "saw a bit of a flash before me".
"We had a major fall and another fall shortly after.
"I hit the ceiling but I was OK, I only got a few bruises and strains. I just remember seeing that the plane was a mess."
Henry and Doreen Bishop, of Oxford, England, said it was one of the worst experiences of their lives.
"People were screaming but they cut off any panic that might have started...", Mr Bishop said.
"I put it down to life. The titanic hit an iceberg, we hit an air pocket."
A spokesman for Perth's Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital said one of the 20 passengers it treated on Tuesday night was in a serious but stable condition. Eight people were under observation and 11 other patients were discharged, he said. Injuries included fractures, lacerations and suspected spinal injuries.
WA Police Commissioner Karl O'Callaghan was forced to activate the state crisis centre because of the number of injuries.
"It seems that there might have been some sort of systems failure, we're not sure yet, we're still waiting for further information," Dr O'Callaghan told ABC Radio.
The flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder have been quarantined and sent to Canberra for testing.
Two ATSB investigators were immediately flown to WA, while another five were on their way to the site where the plane landed to interview passengers and crew, Mr Walsh said.
An officer from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority has joined the team, as well as an investigator from the Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses (BEA), which is the French counterpart to the ATSB.
The BEA officer has been assigned to the investigation because the plane was manufactured in France.
An investigator from Airbus is also travelling to Australia and will also assist the investigations.
"It is obviously very early in the investigation and too soon to draw any conclusions as to the specific cause of the accident," Mr Walsh said.
The ATSB investigation would explore all aspects of the aircraft's operation, including the flight's black boxes, on-board computer systems, air traffic control and radar warnings and weather conditions, he said.
"The ATSB will also be conducting a range of interviews with the pilots and cabin crew and will also speak with passengers to examine the cabin safety aspects."
The investigation was likely to take some months but the ATSB would release a preliminary report within 30 days, Mr Walsh said.
It was unclear how far in altitude the aircraft dropped during the incident.
The Australian and International Pilots' Association on Wednesday said turbulence was not uncommon on that flight path.
Captain Ian Woods said most modern passenger planes were built to cope with changes in altitude.
"When you cross those jet streams as you do from Singapore to Perth ... you run across the transition boundary," Capt Woods, also a Qantas pilot, told ABC Radio.
"It's at that point where you're crossing from smooth air to fast-flowing air, that there can be quite unexpected and significant turbulence."
This could cause a "jet upset", Capt Woods said.
"So if you're unfortunate enough to run into that, and it sounds like that's what's happened, then certainly it's unexpected and you can get outcomes like this."
Capt Woods said turbulence was nothing pilots "can't cope with".
"Aeroplanes have been ... refined over the years and if we go back to the 50s, then these kinds of events were worse than they are now."
The incident is another blow to Qantas which is still dealing with several problems this year including an exploding oxygen bottle which punched a huge hole in the side of a Qantas Boeing 747-400, forcing an emergency landing in Manila.
A Qantas Boeing 737-800 returned to Adelaide after a landing gear door failed to retract, and a Manila-bound Boeing 767 was turned back to Sydney after developing a hydraulic fluid leak.
Passengers tell of horror aboard QF72 - Yahoo!7 News
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I would have thought continuing on to Perth, being only 590nm away would have been a far better option. If passenger welfare was indeed the cause for landing in Learmonth here are some reasons why that does not make sense.
1. From the information we have, the casualties recieved broken bones, perhaps some compounded fractures and lacerations. If you present to a major hospital with these types of injuries over a weekend, you could expect to wait up to 3 days before a corrective procedure is carried out. The exception to this being any sort of head or spinal injury.
2. Head or spinal injuries.
These sorts of things can only be tackled by a major hospital with the latest equipment and techniques. Learmonth base to my knowledge does not have a specialised spinal unit. There is great risk in moving a spinal patient, I would have thought moving the patient once instead of the three hops involved in flying the patient (in a far less stable aircraft) to Perth would have made much better sense.
I think Qantas might have some explaining to do. Logically nothing adds up except technical failure prohibating the aircraft's passage to Perth.
1. From the information we have, the casualties recieved broken bones, perhaps some compounded fractures and lacerations. If you present to a major hospital with these types of injuries over a weekend, you could expect to wait up to 3 days before a corrective procedure is carried out. The exception to this being any sort of head or spinal injury.
2. Head or spinal injuries.
These sorts of things can only be tackled by a major hospital with the latest equipment and techniques. Learmonth base to my knowledge does not have a specialised spinal unit. There is great risk in moving a spinal patient, I would have thought moving the patient once instead of the three hops involved in flying the patient (in a far less stable aircraft) to Perth would have made much better sense.
I think Qantas might have some explaining to do. Logically nothing adds up except technical failure prohibating the aircraft's passage to Perth.